My Sona based rework idea -RHYTHM-

RedCyclone··52 votes·5,520 views

Sona as a champion mechanically has nothing to do with music and this irks me, So in light of all the Sona thread attempting to get attention, I will post my Idea of how to better her, I will disclaim that I don't know the balance in numbers for this Idea but I would like to see the rhythm mechanic become a thing as it would increase her skill ceiling tenfold, something she is in dire need of currently

Rhythm

<edited by moderation>

Sona now has a new resource bar under her mana bar, it does not deplete but it has a little bar that moves left and right, the bar has a different color in the center, if Sona casts an ability while the little bar is in the center color, she gains a stack of rhythm, works well as Sona has instant cast spells (Think like the active reload system in Gears or War, or the combat system in Undertale) Rhythm would effect Sona's abilities and make them 10% stronger, for every stack of rhythm Sona the window to correctly cast a spell becomes smaller, but with every stack she gains 10% more potency to her spells, rhythm would have 5* maximum stacks and would be very difficult to correctly time, specially when you consider latency, So Sona would not be in 5* stack mode most of the game If Sona does not cast a spell in 10 seconds, rhythm begins to deplete, for each stack of rhythm she has this depletion time is reduced by 1 second causing Sona to keep casting to keep up her stacks If Sona does not hit the rhythm at the correct window frame she loses 2 stacks of rhythm At level 6 and 11, the tempo increases

Initially this would mean that Sona's base spell values and ratios would need to be reduced by some value between 20-30%* but she can potential have her base spells be 50% more powerful

As a critique to myself on this idea, it's not exactly a great idea to keep your eyes glued to her resource bar all game, I can only suggest that with this resource, have Sona play her music, but have a music queue to indicate when she can cast a spell (maybe add an extra layer of reverb in the window of opportunity to cast, but just spitballing...)

*Numbers are numbers, they can change, I can't vision these numbers being implemented if this idea was used

So with this system, we have a Sona who has to know what she is doing, perform beautifully if the music queues were added, have to manage her resource to get do better and all in all, a skill ceiling that actually has room for improvement. Would love critique on this Idea, this isn't a buff Sona thread, it's a make her a more skillful champion thread.

[Critique Responses] **Mana **- Combo casting and keeping up with rhythm stacks would make her oom all the time True, maybe having more rhythm stacks could act like Cassiopia's old passive, reducing 10% of the mana cost for each stack

Predictability - Enemies would know when to stay away from Sona From what I explained from this post, I mentioned that it would take 1 second for the bar to move left to right, 1 second isn't a lot of time so really you can't anticipate it all the time

Situation - She should use spells when they are needed, not because of the minigame Again, 1 second isn't a lot of time

95 Comments

Drunk Tsundere21 votes

As an ex-Sona main: I love the idea of the addition of a Tempo bar. Not only would this make her more skillful, but it would also give her moments where she is stronger and moments where she is weaker. Right now, Sona's kit is pretty one dimensional and Riot has been forced to nerf her numbers super hard, because if she had good numbers, then opponents have no opportunity to fight her. And with low numbers, she is totally worthless. If these changes happened, then Riot could buff her damage and durability back to where it used to be, and opponents would have opportunities to trade with her, instead of just losing every trade as long as Sona has mana.

The only criticism I have is that I don't like the idea of Sona's auras getting smaller as she stays on rhythm. It feels like you would always be missing out on something, and never sure if you should break rhythm just to get the extra range back, at the expense of less damage/healing. It overall seems to punish players for playing well, which isn't right. Edit: Misread OP's post.

What if the stacks fell off very rapidly (Like after one missed beat) , but were easier to get correctly, so playing her would feel like a metronome. "tick, tick, tick, tick, tick" rather than "tick tick.... miss... tick tick...."

Aeolian Melodies8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Support GG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gtwVbQkq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-11T23:56:02.489+0000)

Right now, Sona's kit is pretty one dimensional and Riot has been forced to nerf her numbers super hard, because if she had good numbers, then opponents have no opportunity to fight her.

Annie

RedCyclone4 votes

This was the whole intention of the idea, Sona is so linear that she is forced to be in a state of unviability

As for the rapidy falling off tempo thing, I think you misread again, or I did Sona can skip and beats, but if she uses a spell at the incorrect time, she is punished for it It would be impossible for Sona to have mana costs and have to hit every beat, and I am thinking that the rythem bar goes left to right in like 1 second

If you mean just when Sona screws up a cast she loses stacks rapidly, then an that's okay idea, specially if instead of 5 stacks of Rythem she had 10 (but only 5% increase in power per stack)

Drunk Tsundere1 votes

Yeah I read that I was making a suggestion to change it because you aren't allowed to skip beats while you are playing music.

RedCyclone1 votes

unless somehow she can have no mana, but I can't see that being very helpful healthy

Pika3103 votes

LeeSin Yasuo Riven

RedCyclone3 votes

Such healthy champions

Bhagswag11 votes

Sorry I just came for boobs but didn't read. I upvoted tho. :D

Hellioning8 votes

Eh, I'm not a fan. It punishes high ping even more then usual, and ping changes would screw everything up. It's way too predictable (only fight Sona when her bar is to one side), and she'd have to buy some sort of mana item (on a support budget?)

RedCyclone1 votes

I keep having to say this about the predictability, Sona would have an opportunity to cast once a second as the bar goes from side to side, she has 2 skills what can be cast at any time without really having to time them (clutch shielding aside, but it's so weak anyway)

She would need some form of mana rework, or perhaps have a passive like old Cassiopia to encourage combo casting (every stack of rhythm would reduce mana costs by 10%)

Hellioning2 votes

Except for the fact that A) all of her abilities have a GCD, meaning if you screw up pressing one button you'll probably have to wait for a bit to cast the next one to get rhythm, B) due to her 'snuggle zones' she requires better positioning for her skills then a normal support, so having to delay things can screw her over, C) if it takes only a second for the bar to go from one side to the other, that's going to be a VERY tiny window, especially if it speeds up at 6 and 11, and D) she has an entirely different passive that wants her to auto attack after she casts a specific spell, meaning she already has a timing aspect to her kit.

Also, she's the easiest support to play, and the game is already full of minigames as is. I don't see the point of adding this beyond 'COMPLEXITY!'

RedCyclone1 votes

A) 1 second...she can combo cast if she want's but it will make her Rhythm go down, it would still be doing things B)Positioning and management just means that she needs to be more skillful C)I'm thinking 0.5 seconds at 0 stacks and 0.2 seconds at 5 D)I don't think that this would change her, because her skills are instant cast

Hellioning2 votes

A) But Sona's entire thing is combo casting. She has a passive that encourages her to use her abilities as often as possible. This would go against that. B) It's hard to be 'skillful' when you want to press all of your abilities to get your stacks up, but have to deal with having a relatively short range with which to use the auras (the entire point of her character) C) Didn't you say that the tempo would increase at levels 6 and 11? D) And? If my choices are 'Do I cast E, despite not being on time, to catch up with an enemy and slow them with my power chord, or do I wait for the next time the bar swings around (a maximum of .8 seconds) to cast my E, risking my opponent running away? That's a 'choice', yes, but it always feels like you're losing (either you lose passive stacks or the enemy gets away.)

Krigjer2 votes

It's way too predictable (only fight Sona when her bar is to one side)

This is what I dislike about Gnar. The enemy automatically knows to disengage when Mega is about to pop. Makes it feel like I'm playing the champ at 50% his potential because my target knows exactly when to run.

kile1471 votes

And yet people think he's OP for some reason?

theragingnerd7 votes

professional thumbnailer

Brascus8 votes

Came for the boobs. Came for the boobs ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

HowPlayGAEM6 votes

[deleted]

Pika3101 votes

I can understand what you mean, but since I don't personally play those 2 champs, this concept feels like Rumble or Vladimir to me. Spend all game juggling the Mechanized Menace's spells to keep his heat in yellow or spamming the Hemomancer's Tithe's of Blood to keep its stacks maxed out.

Notice 1 important thing for all 4 of these champions: they do not use mana. This should tell you, such a design cannot work on a champion that's been mana-gated without becoming a late-game mana-stacker like Ryze. Especially in Sona's case the problem becomes two-fold: firstly Sona has the 3rd-lowest base mana amongst mage supports, she'd require at least Tear and RoA just to be able to participate in a teamfight; and secondly she has the mana-regen pattern of all mage supports, namely high base and low scaling which becomes counter-intuitive to the late-game mana-stacking item-path. For sustained sieges and fights it's necessary she include a regen item as well.

All this on a support champion, I can't see this idea working without some serious changes across the board to her costs, mana and regen.

Aeolian Melodies5 votes

Not a huge fan of the idea because Sona's main goal (like any champion) should be to use her spells when the spells are needed... your idea encourages using W because "I have to, muh stacks" and not because the heal is needed. It'll make Sona choose between using spells when needed and not get the benefits of her Rhythm mechanic, or focus on her Rhythm stacks and end up wasting mana for "more powerful spells" that she'll end up wasting anyway to get her stacks.

RedCyclone3 votes

Sona comes with low cooldown spammable spells, all her abilities can be timed correctly, also the implied amount of time it takes for the rhythm bar to go from one side to another would be one second, she can cast basically whenever she wants, just there is a 0.5 -0.1 second frame where she has to cast Plus the tempo getting faster at every ult level allows her to have many opportunities to cast a spell

Aeolian Melodies6 votes

{quoted}

Sona comes with low cooldown spammable spells, all her abilities can be timed correctly, also the implied amount of time it takes for the rhythm bar to go from one side to another would be one second, she can cast basically whenever she wants, just there is a 0.5 -0.1 second frame where she has to cast Plus the tempo getting faster at every ult level allows her to have many opportunities to cast a spell

W's level 1 cost is 80 mana and it scales up.

"spammable spells"

please.

Yrzen4 votes

ex-Sona main as well.

This is a quaint idea that has potential to be implemented neatly, but a rhythm game clashes with a game like League of Legends and to redefine her as a champion that depends on specific timing not up to her doesn't seem like a good idea. These mechanics would make her more like Draven, because being so dependent on it would require adequate compensation, turning her into an all-or-nothing champion, which isn't a good blueprint to work off of for a support generally. The 10 second duration would drive her further down the wrong road that the rework took her in, (forced to play less safe just to break even) and doesn't address any of the problems that the rework introduced to her kit. (Dependency on an auto after Qs just to have as much damage as before-effectively a 300 range nerf in addition to making you go through an auto animation, her W being unusable besides emergencies-literally the opposite of how she used to be, sustaining to discourage engages because most engages will end with your doom because of your squishiness, and then the cooldowns and mana costs choking out her slowing power chords from practicality when they make up the entirety of your non-ultimate cc)

Fix Sona's engine before giving her a new paint job and selling her back to players. She may have thematic dissonance right now because of the low range of her "snuggle zones", but it's her playstyle that really matters, and that was shit all over.

All. Over.

I'm not just salty over it, I have an outright grudge because of it.

https://youtu.be/jva4NPdLMjA?t=37s

No worries, her playstyle has not really changed.

This was the spit in my eye as I watched my favorite champion die.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Definitely an interesting idea, but...nerfing Sona's bases even further would essentially destroy her early game.

If you reduce Sona's Q by 30%, then it becomes about 27 damage per cast from 40, and even if you get 5 stacks it only increases to 40 (50% of 27 is 13).

This would basically make Sonas who max W first unplayable. Having a Q that either requires you to go oom or deals only 27 damage pre MR is basically like not having an ability at all at level 5.

Meanwhile Sona's W only heals for 25 at rank 1...

I honestly don't think you realize just how terrible her bases are.

Decreasing them further will make her worthless no matter how much power you add.

RedCyclone1 votes

{quoted}

*Numbers are numbers, they can change, I can't vision these numbers being implemented if this idea was used

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Well, you can't add power to her kit without taking it away from somewhere. Nerfing her bases makes her unplayable. You want to increase her power based on skill in order to make her more interesting and stronger. So you have to take power away from something. Higher mana costs? She's already got one of the highest mana rotations in the game at 330, and she needs to spam that in order to make use of her passive and this new resource bar. Lower MS? She's already at the lowest tier. Lower base stats? She's already the second lowest in the game in terms of health (only Anivia is lower) and her base armor is terrible.

Pika3103 votes

Why does adding power to a bottom-tier champion require taking it from elsewhere? Riot literally removed power from her in close to 40 places during season 4 starting from patches 3.14 and going all the way through patch 5.1. How much of this did they actually redistribute? A grand total of FOUR(was 5, but one got removed). That's almost ten nerfs for every one "buff."

Sona probably has the greatest unspent power budget amongst every single champion in the game. They could do a full revert to pre-4.13, which equates to literally over 30 buffs and she'd still be inferior to Nami and especially Bard. If she got reverted to pre-3.14, she'd maybe finally find her place back in the meta again, but nothing less than that could do it.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

{quoted}

Why does adding power to a bottom-tier champion require taking it from elsewhere? Riot literally removed power from her in close to 40 places during season 4 starting from patches 3.14 and going all the way through patch 5.1. How much of this did they actually redistribute? A grand total of FOUR(was 5, but one got removed). That's almost ten nerfs for every one "buff."

Sona probably has the greatest unspent power budget amongst every single champion in the game. They could do a full revert to pre-4.13, which equates to literally over 30 buffs and she'd still be inferior to Nami and especially Bard. If she got reverted to pre-3.14, she'd maybe finally find her place back in the meta again, but nothing less than that could do it.

Because Riot doesn't want Sona to be good. When Sona is good she basically decides matches because she's incredibly safe, she has a team wide heal, and she has an instant cast AOE stun on a low cooldown.

Also, Sona does quite fine when she is built tank, which is the way that all supports should be built because utility is not something you want large spikes of, it's something you want consistently buffing you.

Sona's power budget relies entirely around all of her abilities hitting 5 champions at the same time, and when that happens, on a consistent basis, she is quite strong, and Riot knows this. That's why they will never buff her without nerfing something else.

Pika3103 votes

Because Riot doesn't want Sona to be good. When Sona is good she basically decides matches because she's incredibly safe, she has a team wide heal, and she has an instant cast AOE stun on a low cooldown.

Sona was good pre-4.13. Yes, Nami was better, but that's beside the point this time. She wasn't safe, proper play required getting in 550 range to fully utilize her kit. Her heal isn't team-wide, that makes it sound like Soraka's or Janna's ult, it is neither of these. It's a 1-man heal the same as Taric's, but less than half as good. Her ult is not instant, it has a 0.2 second channel time followed by a travel time, anyone not on the west-coast has enough ping to Flash or even walk out of range and it's actually one of the longest cooldowns amongst support ults. Sona has NOT decided matches since her patch 3.8 nerfs.

Sona's power budget relies entirely around all of her abilities hitting 5 champions at the same time, and when that happens, on a consistent basis, she is quite strong, and Riot knows this. That's why they will never buff her without nerfing something else.

Every teamwide effect is balanced around hitting 2 people: Janna, Locket, Taric, Karma, Rumble, every AoE damage spell, et cetera and et cetera. There's absolutely zero reason Sona should be the exception to this rule other than Riot's sheer thinly-veiled hatred of her existence. Rito's loathing for Sona is the true reason they nerf her and the reason she's never had a true buff in the entire history of League.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

{quoted}

Sona was good pre-4.13.

And she's not now. Which is my point.

Every teamwide effect is balanced around hitting 2 people: Janna, Locket, Taric, Karma, Rumble, every AoE damage spell, et cetera and et cetera. There's absolutely zero reason Sona should be the exception to this rule other than Riot's sheer thinly-veiled hatred of her existence. Rito's loathing for Sona is the true reason they nerf her and the reason she's never had a true buff in the entire history of League.

Yeah, almost like RIOT DOESN'T WANT HER TO BE GOOD, which is my whole point.

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

Although I have thought a secondary resource might be a viable idea on her, I don't think it is actually doable with her current kit. Or more specifically I don't think Riot would do it. The potential damage increase to her Q would probably be one of the biggest hang ups.

RedCyclone2 votes

Numbers can always be changed, the idea is for Sona not to always be at full power

Penguin Eclipse2 votes

{quoted}

Numbers can always be changed, the idea is for Sona not to always be at full power

Unfortunately it's not necessarily fixable by numbers. Her Q really goes against everything Riot believes in. Your suggestion would effectively increase the damage output potential. I don't think that is going to fly with the ability being so simple to use.

Emmy Cha0s2 votes

So I guess you're just going to ignore the facts that Sona has the lowest base damage of all supports and the 2nd-lowest possible output just above Braum.

Rozzeta1 votes

I'd have two issues with this: First one is that Sona does not have the mana to keep up casting spells constantly. Second is that this would make Sona too predictable, so in order to make the most out of the poke, she'd have to keep dealing damage (Q has lowest mana cost and CD of all her skills), and any enemy would be trying to get the timing corretly in order to punish her attack attemps. Also that would make her healing more potent in each cast, and that is for Riot is more poisonous than Cass, Singed and Teemo combined.

Also, I'd rather she didn't gain more damage, but something to either cripple the opponent or further buff an ally, as it is something that Riot wouldn't nerf almost immediately like they do with Staccato.

For the Idea of addyng something more thematical, I liked the throughts of those who wanted to add some elements from Invoker into her play style, maybe something like increasing or decreasing Power Chrod's effect based on harmony and dissonance (like increasing the effect by building stacks wit ha single melody, or creating additional effect when using certain combinations), but in order to get something like that going, we would have to first restore her asic Skills CD s othey are all even again.

RedCyclone2 votes

I would assume if an idea like this was taken, her mana costs and cooldowns would have to be adjusted As for predictability, I don't think so, she would get 1 opportunity to cast every second or something like that

rhythm stacks could do something different, but it needs to be something that gives Sona power for well managing the system

Pika3101 votes

I agree with you, but 2 things you said are irking me.

Also, I'd rather she didn't gain more damage,

Sona has the lowest base damage and base AD of the support class, her damage potential is the 2nd-lowest amongst all supports after Braum. Sona factually has one of the lowest damage outputs in the entire game. People feed into the misconception of her doing damage because of Lich Bane and Luden's Echo which are both fake or artificial scalings. Any champ can buy these items, they only give an illusion that your champ is doing damage when they factually are not. I could build Lich Echo Braum and people would still complain about the damage or I could build them on Nami and Bard and have higher damage output than Sona(buy nearly thrice as much.)

Also that would make her healing more potent in each cast, and that is for Riot is more poisonous than Cass, Singed and Teemo combined.

What you say is true, Rito hates healing and more than anything they hate Sona. Which is why Sona has the weakest heal in the entire game both in base and scaling, combined with the most expensive mana cost. Sona's heal is so bad, Relic Shield heals 33% more than her and the 2nd-lowest champion heal(Nidalee) heals just as much as Sona potentially could if her target was at 0% HP, but Nid has higher AP scaling.

Rozzeta1 votes

Don't get me wrong, but I think that buffing Sona in damage alone would be a bad idea, since it's the very first thing Riot guts whenever they feel like nerfing her. Any change to be performed needs to make a significative contribution to her utility (instead of the crap rework Fearless did) or she will simply get her Passive damage nerfed after a couple months.

As for the heal, Sona used to have the lowest healing per cast, but combining the 65 MP cost with a 7 sec cooldown, it could greatly help Sona sustain a siege by herself, and in additiona to that you would be protecting a champion with extra defenses on each heal. The increased mana cost AND the increased cooldown killed that. Both nerfs at the same time are overkill, and one needs to go, hopefully the increased CD (even if that lame shield has to get nerfed because of it). With Sona's heal, it was quantity over quality, so increasing the amount is not a good solution.}

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gtwVbQkq,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-12T16:32:37.198+0000)

So I guess you are just going to bring up something irrelevant. Again.

It doesn't matter how much damage she does. Her damage is auto targeted for 2 enemy champions with 850 range. That is not a healthy ability under any circumstances and Riot is not going to be terribly interested on buffing it.

Let's not forget that targetting is subject to special circumstances. Q only has champion priority in a 550-600 radio around Sona. If no champion is in that radio, Q will hit whichever enemy unit is closer, so standing behind minions is actually a valid counter. If Sona gets close to you in order to get you in the priority area, then you have one of the squishiest champions on the game in attack range.

This, and the fact that a target can only receive damage from 1 attack, even if the animation shows both going towards the same target (when only 1 target present) is actually a very important information which Riot has never added to the client.

RedCyclone2 votes

not to mention that the 2 bolts that come out of Sona are really weak, 40/80/120/160/200 with a 0.5 ap ratio

Pika3102 votes

Don't get me wrong, but I think that buffing Sona in damage alone would be a bad idea, since it's the very first thing Riot guts whenever they feel like nerfing her. Any change to be performed needs to make a significative contribution to her utility (instead of the crap rework Fearless did) or she will simply get her Passive damage nerfed after a couple months.

As for the heal, Sona used to have the lowest healing per cast, but combining the 65 MP cost with a 7 sec cooldown, it could greatly help Sona sustain a siege by herself, and in additiona to that you would be protecting a champion with extra defenses on each heal. The increased mana cost AND the increased cooldown killed that. Both nerfs at the same time are overkill, and one needs to go, hopefully the increased CD (even if that lame shield has to get nerfed because of it). With Sona's heal, it was quantity over quality, so increasing the amount is not a good solution.}

You say all of this as though Sona were a meta pick before patch 4.13 gutted her. That was not the case. As early as the Sona nerfs in patch 3.14, she has ever since been considered an inferior carbon copy of Nami.

Riot blatantly nerfed Sona when she was already a sub-par champion. They CAN buff her damage. They CAN buff Aria's base, CD and cost. Even if they reverted her completely, she'd still be an inferior pick to Nami and even Bard now as well. Sona is a lot worse off than what you're attempting to imply.

Rozzeta1 votes

Interesting. Usual complains on my comments on Sona's state is that I often overdramatize her nerft. This is the first time the opposite happens XD

Pika3103 votes

Those usual complaints come solely from players that have never played as Sona. They rarely ever see one in a game because of her near-nonexistent pick-rate and have no understanding of her or why nobody plays her.

All they know is that one time a very long time ago, a Sona with Lich Bane AND Echo did almost 50% of their HP after a full rotation on a squishy. Apparently they think that's too much damage for her, even with 2 artificial scalings.

RedCyclone3 votes

swap Echo for DFG, then it fits

Scrimshäw1 votes

get a girlfriend and uninstall please

RedCyclone10 votes

No thanks, they cost too much money

The Loveless1 votes

The universal cooldowns and mana gating hold her back in a lot of situations. Other supports/champs in general can chain their moves together. WIth Sona, you give some small-to-moderate buffs to your team, and every once in a while your basic attack will be empowered to debuff the enemy. She's just too old. I could see her being cooler without the universal cooldowns, and the allowance of every activated+persistent effect if I decide to faceroll.

Stacking them up for an empowered auto might be too much tho lol

Pika3101 votes

I'm confused at what you're trying to say. Sona hasn't had universal cooldowns ever since the patch 4.13 gutting. Then, Power Chord doesn't make sense without them, it just forces Sona players to spam Staccato because Hymn has the lowest cooldown. Then Riot nerfs Staccato because players are using it more than Diminuendo and Tempo.

Riot nerfed Sona, forced players into a bad playstyle, then nerfed the playstyle they themselves forced her into. It's like someone stepping on a scorpion and then getting angry when a dozen baby scorpions jump off its back and attack you. It's your own fault for starting shit, couldn't just leave well enough alone.

The Loveless2 votes

Basically I don't want to play her.

Pika3101 votes

Ah yes, I can empathize with that sentiment, but you know that already.

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