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Looks like Riot really did well with the power progression on Kayle.

Get Ogre Here··16 votes·6,527 views

A problem I've always had is that the 'late game champions' such as Vayne and Nasus are just too strong early game to really be considered 'late game champions'. In my opinion if a champion is extremely strong late game, they MUST have a weak early game and Kayle accomplishes that.

From the gameplay I've seen, Kayle has a very weak, but very manageable early game/laning phase for her first 2 forms. Then once she reaches level 11, she becomes an actual champion and is allowed to exist, and level 16 she wreaks havoc on everything.

This is what I've always wanted in a late-game champion. Vayne just does too much damage and has mobility and cc and everything early game, Nasus is just a fuckin nuisance, but Kayle actually has a very weak early game that smoothly transitions into a very strong late game.

This thread probably had bad structure and whatnot, but I just wanna get these thoughts out because I'm very happy to see this.

Good job Riot! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

21 Comments

RiotBazerka11 votes

[sg-kiko]

Your Demon1 votes

{quoted}

[sg-kiko]

hi , hope you have a nice day c:. Ty for being here c:

Saezio6 votes

Well, nasus is a mid-game champion though.

If you look at his winrates according to how long the game lasts (in like D+ elos) his win % falls if the game gets to lategame, whereas theoretically an infinitely stacking champ should get higher chance to win the more a game lasts.

Done255 votes

{quoted}

Well, nasus is a mid-game champion though.

If you look at his winrates according to how long the game lasts (in like D+ elos) his win % falls if the game gets to lategame, whereas theoretically an infinitely stacking champ should get higher chance to win the more a game lasts.

That's because the DPS marksmen melt him before he can get close by then.

Saezio4 votes

We are in agreement then. Nasus has a strong midgame and a dog-shit (pun not intended) late game if the enemy carries hit their items. And, they don't need to be DPS marksmen, Draven MF and Lucian (3 of the supposed early game marksmen) destroy him with 3 items as well even if Nasus invests solely into armor after his trinity. And he is also fucked by any peeling or CC the enemy support might have

This is all provided the game is not a low elo fiesta

MankeyMadness5 votes

Imagine if Wither was trash early or Vayne scaled like Kayn.

What if Vayne only got invisibility at 11 or maybe 16, if her W scaled with crit chance... something that makes her disgusting to deal with but after a lot of work.

GripaAviara4 votes

Nope, it will be a mess. She will either be too weak to be fun or a nightmare for soloq, no in-between.

This design pattern of champions weak early and monster late is highly toxic and near impossible to balance

Get Ogre Here1 votes

{quoted}

Nope, it will be a mess. She will either be too weak to be fun or a nightmare for soloq, no in-between.

This design pattern of champions weak early and monster late is highly toxic and near impossible to balance

Way to be optimistic. I think Kayle will do it way better than any other 'late game champion'. You have to wait and see how it turns out before you shit on it.

Vekkna3 votes

I've had 7 ranked games that lasted past level 16 in the last four months combined.

Pretty sure we'll just have a very weak early game that smoothly transitions into an open nexus.

koshkyra1 votes

smoothly transitions into an open nexus

Upvoted

Fear the Kayn1 votes

I think this will bring some balance issues though. You see Kayn has a similar thing going on, hes really weak early and becomes a champion once he gets his transform. Kayn's transform only takes around 10 minutes though, and you have to wait a lot longer on Kayle to be able to actually do something.

Get Ogre Here1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsnxeTIN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-21T03:28:20.567+0000)

I think this will bring some balance issues though. You see Kayn has a similar thing going on, hes really weak early and becomes a champion once he gets his transform. Kayn's transform only takes around 10 minutes though, and you have to wait a lot longer on Kayle to be able to actually do something.

The thing is with Kayn it's like 10-100 almost instantly. With Kayle, it's more gradual. As time goes on it's like 0 > 30 > 60 > 100 as the game progresses so it's more of a curve than a steep YEET to the top.

Fear the Kayn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Get Ogre Here,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsnxeTIN,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-02-21T04:00:22.292+0000)

The thing is with Kayn it's like 10-100 almost instantly. With Kayle, it's more gradual. As time goes on it's like 0 > 30 > 60 > 100 as the game progresses so it's more of a curve than a steep YEET to the top.

Indeed, but that very slow build up means Kayle will be very, very weak in the early game. This makes me think she may fit well into the jungle more than any other lane, honestly. Don't have to worry as much about getting shit on and can just power farm.

Get Ogre Here1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsnxeTIN,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-02-21T04:10:12.966+0000)

Indeed, but that very slow build up means Kayle will be very, very weak in the early game. This makes me think she may fit well into the jungle more than any other lane, honestly. Don't have to worry as much about getting shit on and can just power farm.

There's no doubt in my mind she'll be shit in the jg. I don't think her being bad in lane will be that bad, she'll be kinda like Kassadin. Pretty shit in most match ups early on but will come back to smack you later. Just multiply both of those things by 3 and you got Kayle.

Saianna1 votes

If the game against kyle resembles more of a bomb with a timer untill explosion/defeat and some people say it's a good design, then somewhere on a great path of evolution, we must have made 180 degree turn.

Half the game she'll be hugging a turret, doing nothing, then once she hits lvl 16 nothing will be able to stop her (maybe except tryndamere). But you guys know what? All of this drama, everything we say is pointless. Kayle was already made and there's no chance ever for her to get a second re-rework/tweaks anytime soon.

So... Expect kayles in ever game, most of them being bad (cause the idea of sitting under a turret for 20 minutes isn't so popular). Then her popularity will wane to whatever she has currently.

Get Ogre Here1 votes

{quoted}

If the game against kyle resembles more of a bomb with a timer untill explosion/defeat and some people say it's a good design, then somewhere on a great path of evolution, we must have made 180 degree turn.

Half the game she'll be hugging a turret, doing nothing, then once she hits lvl 16 nothing will be able to stop her (maybe except tryndamere). But you guys know what? All of this drama, everything we say is pointless. Kayle was already made and there's no chance ever for her to get a second re-rework/tweaks anytime soon.

So... Expect kayles in ever game, most of them being bad (cause the idea of sitting under a turret for 20 minutes isn't so popular). Then her popularity will wane to whatever she has currently.

Well, no. She has 4 forms of progression, and by the looks of it, this is how it goes.

  1. (1-6) Yeah, she's a tower hugger and just gets the scraps of CS. Considering she's a late-game powerhouse, this is fair.

  2. (6-11) She has her ulti and a new form, so she's still fairly weak but can definitely put up a lil bit of a fight, she's kinda like Kayn before getting his form. Not super weak but will get stronger to compensate.

  3. (11-16) Now she's really doing well. She can kite people and do damage and now feels like she's really getting strong and can put up a good fight.

  4. (16-18) She's extremely strong now and is one of the strongest champions in the game at this point, which is good because the entire game has been leading up to this. Yes, her team has an advantage because she's on the team. This is because if she survived all of that weakness she kinda deserves to be rewarded with a ton of strength. And nothing is an instant-win. Kayle will still be able to lose at this point, just like how anyone who's fed can lose.

HollowMimic1 votes

If she stays behind it's difficult to catch-up. She has no dash, no CC, no movement speed, the W sustain is almost the same (her support role is better), so it better be a monster lategame

Get Ogre Here1 votes

{quoted}

If she stays behind it's difficult to catch-up. She has no dash, no CC, no movement speed, the W sustain is almost the same (her support role is better), so it better be a monster lategame

I haven't seen a huge amount of her gameplay but from what I've seen they do it pretty decently.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I feel exactly the opposite about it, i hate extreme powercurves. Wether it's a usless early but beyond godlike late like new Kayle or a Opressive early and autoloose later like pant, it just feels bad to use for atleast half the game while also beeing very bad to deal with as opponent but also as allies. Imot extreme powercurves are pretty unhealthy for the game overall, whcih is why i dislike the tuneing on new kayle.

Extremely weak early and absurdly strong later never worked to well in the past, either the early is so weak that the champ is near unplayable cause it can't ever reach it's lategame potential(YI in high elo), or the champ is decent enough early to get to his powerspike and he puts the game on a timer for his opponents(yi in low elo)

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