Hashinshin's ban is a great example of why what he says…

Get Ogre Here · 2018-10-24T20:09:43.508Z

I'll preface this by saying I love Hashinshin. It's just that I love him as an entertainer, not an educator or game balancer. If you don't know what happened that led to him playing Viktor here's the TL;DR: Hashinshin plays Fiora vs. Viktor top. He loses really hard and says how mages need insane nerfs and to prove that, he first timed Viktor top in ranked (at least the first time in several years) and when he's trying to prove how broken he is, he ends up going 0/19 and being banned for intentionally feeding. Isn't that ironic. And in classic Hashinshin fashion, he was complaining about how broken Riven is the whole time. I think this is the best example of why a lot of what Hashinshin says is wrong. I know it's an anecdote, but you also have to listen to the other things he says. Some things I can think off the top of my head are "All ability power from mage items and runes (and all other sources) should be reduced by 25%." Does he realize how ridiculous this would be? He also said Kennen should get gutted to the ground with very little reasoning behind it. Like I said, I like Hashinshin as an entertainer, not a balancer. Don't think I hate him lol

KhristophorosOct 24, 20189 votes

Believe it or not, problematic champions that oppress other champs and centralize the meta aren't necessarily easy to pick up and just dominate with on your first try, just like any other champ with any learning curve at all. I know that's a really insane idea but trust me it's true.

JamareeOct 24, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Believe it or not, problematic champions that oppress other champs and centralize the meta aren't necessarily easy to pick up and just dominate with on your first try, just like any other champ with any learning curve at all. I know that's a really insane idea but trust me it's true.

But he himself said that Viktor takes no skill and you can just face roll to win.

KhristophorosOct 24, 20187 votes

He was wrong on that particular point, but that doesn't make him wrong about Viktor (or ranged tops in general) being a problem.

JamareeOct 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

He was wrong on that particular point, but that doesn't make him wrong about Viktor (or ranged tops in general) being a problem.

But none of those champions are all that strong in the current meta I see what you mean about how they can oppressive but had those melee champions are oppressive against other melees like Renekton and Darius, so do they need nerfs?

KhristophorosOct 25, 20183 votes

The ranged tops don't need nerfs because they were already nerfed in the past.

The point is these champs become huge problems whenever they are popular/strong.

I don't have any comment about Darius and Renekton though. I just don't know all the bruiser matchups well enough since I don't main top. However, every top laner I've talked to hates ranged top laners and thinks they are oppressive when strong.

JamareeOct 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

They don't need nerfs because they were already nerfed in the past.

The point is these champs become huge problems whenever they are popular/strong.

So should we nerf based off what is popular or what is strong because those are two vastly different things.

KhristophorosOct 25, 20182 votes

We should nerf champs that centralize the meta and oppress multiple other champs out of viability.

JamareeOct 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

We should nerf champs that centralize the meta and oppress multiple other champs out of viability.

And when the next champions also do that because their main counters are out nerf again then correct?

KhristophorosOct 25, 20183 votes

If the only way to counter an oppressive champion was with another oppressive champion, then yes, that's what you do.

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20183 votes

because Darius and Renekton have counterplay. Hence why Darius is dogshit in Masters+.

JamareeOct 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

because Darius and Renekton have counterplay. Hence why Darius is dogshit in Masters+.

But so do ranged tops?

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20182 votes

against Gnar, Kennen, and Jayce, melee tops do not have counterplay or very little.

JamareeOct 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

against Gnar, Kennen, and Jayce, melee tops do not have counterplay or very little.

And against Darius and Renekton, some of those same melee tops do not have counterplay or very little.

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20182 votes

they also don't complain about ranged tops even right now, the only one who does is hashinshin

You could ask ICU, Steven's Jax, Adrain Riven, Gbay, or pretty much any other high elo top lane. They will say they don't enjoy ranged tops.

but he complains about everything that beats him.

If you only look at the vacuum of popularized clips, you would think that. If you looked elsewhere, you might realize not. Nothing new about people saying "hash bad xd" and getting free internet points though.

JamareeOct 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You could ask ICU, Steven's Jax, Adrain Riven, Gbay, or pretty much any other high elo top lane. They will say they don't enjoy ranged tops.

Because they only play melees, they are a bit bias about that.

If you only look at the vacuum of popularized clips, you would think that. If you looked elsewhere, you might realize not. Nothing new about people saying "hash bad xd" and getting free internet points though.

Can you show me a clip of anytime where he has lost and only blamed himself and not someone else then?

Dark RoyaltyOct 25, 20183 votes

Yes its ok for melees to not have fun because muh ranged toplaners lmao

Get Ogre HereOct 24, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Believe it or not, problematic champions that oppress other champs and centralize the meta aren't necessarily easy to pick up and just dominate with on your first try, just like any other champ with any learning curve at all. I know that's a really insane idea but trust me it's true.

Hashinshin didn't seem to think that, then look what happened Viktor

HåppyOct 24, 201813 votes

{quoted}

And then he gets beats by a melee while playing one of those ranged tops hmmmm

[sg-lux-2]

He gets beat by the #1 Riven player in the world (smurfing). There's a difference.

JamareeOct 24, 201813 votes

{quoted}

He gets beat by the #1 Riven player in the world (smurfing). There's a difference.

Is there though? Cause had he lost to a different champion he would just cry that one is OP instead in fact, has Hashinshin literally ever blamed himself for a loss or is it always someone else’s fault?

PlebonicEbonicOct 24, 20188 votes

Riven is melee, but legitimately a nightmare for anyone with skillshots.

you can't tell me she's not absurd when in capable hands. i watched the video. he didn't just get dumpstered by riven. he got level 1 bush cheesed, then camped by graves along with riven for half of the game.

JamareeOct 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Riven is melee, but legitimately a nightmare for anyone with skillshots.

you can't tell me she's not absurd when in capable hands. i watched the video. he didn't just get dumpstered by riven. he got level 1 bush cheesed, then camped by graves along with riven for half of the game.

I’m not arguing whether or not he should have been banned for this, he shouldn’t have been, I was arguing all he does is complain.

Yeah she is dumb is capable hands, as is Jax, as is any champion, I’m more afraid of a good Shaco then a good Riven personally

Dark RoyaltyOct 25, 20183 votes

Lmao are you playing against riven players with no hands? If u master riven there is almost no counterplay. Thats why the same riven players are challenger every season.

JamareeOct 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Royalty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AkOiGyU,comment-id=00000001000200000000,timestamp=2018-10-25T11:32:37.395+0000)

Lmao are you playing against riven players with no hands? If u master riven there is almost no counterplay. Thats why the same riven players are challenger every season.

Then why isn't every player in the game challenger and why doesn't she see any competitive play?

Dark RoyaltyOct 25, 20181 votes

First dont compare soloq to competitive because thr competitive meta is completely diffrent than the soloq meta. There are so many riven mains in challenger for a reason, when singed was broken there were alot of singed mains in master/challenger but when they nerfed him they dropped down to where they were before. Riven is way to good if u master her

JamareeOct 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Royalty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AkOiGyU,comment-id=0000000100020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-25T13:13:45.168+0000)

There are so many riven mains in challenger for a reason, when singed was broken there were alot of singed mains in master/challenger but when they nerfed him they dropped down to where they were before. Riven is way to good if u master her

Technically there are more Lucian, Kai'sa, Thres, Aatrox, Camille, Alistar, Gragas, Rakan, Vitkor, you get the point, all things considered, she only sees around 10% of picks at that elo, so I don't see that as a lot personally.

Also, if that is the case, why aren't you challenger?

Dark RoyaltyOct 26, 20181 votes

Im saying that players who deserve to be d1/masters can go to ranks above where they would be with other champs, this is true for some of the champs you said in ur list. If you can master riven at ur elo then you will climb because she is so oppressive if u can master her. The reason im not challenger is because i am bad at csing trading and rotations.

JamareeOct 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Royalty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AkOiGyU,comment-id=000000010002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T01:57:00.560+0000)

Im saying that players who deserve to be d1/masters can go to ranks above where they would be with other champs, this is true for some of the champs you said in ur list. If you can master riven at ur elo then you will climb because she is so oppressive if u can master her. The reason im not challenger is because i am bad at csing trading and rotations.

And you can’t do that with other champions?

Dark RoyaltyOct 26, 20181 votes

Yes but riven does it even when she isnt meta because her kit is so broken.

JamareeOct 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Royalty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AkOiGyU,comment-id=00000001000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T11:14:31.468+0000)

Yes but riven does it even when she isnt meta because her kit is so broken.

There are Kindred mains in Challenger and she isn't meta?

Need Gold 4 TentOct 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

There are Kindred mains in Challenger and she isn't meta?

Those one tricks are where they are because of their skill in macro (and perhaps some micro relating to their champ), but if they had an actual overloaded champion to master, their skill should put them much higher than they currently are.

The champ could be weak but it is the players of high skill levels that somehow barely make it work in high elo.

JamareeOct 26, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Need Gold 4 Tent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AkOiGyU,comment-id=0000000100020000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T21:26:12.978+0000)

Those one tricks are where they are because of their skill in macro (and perhaps some micro relating to their champ), but if they had an actual overloaded champion to master, their skill should put them much higher than they currently are.

The champ could be weak but it is the players of high skill levels that somehow barely make it work in high elo.

But in the case of Riven, she is just broken then and yet very few people actually play her at that level, ok.

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20184 votes

Diamond 3 player beaten by Challenger player

Gold player beaten by diamond player

What's the difference? No shit the lower ranked player loses.

JamareeOct 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Diamond 3 player beaten by Challenger player

Gold player beaten by diamond player

What's the difference? No shit the lower ranked player loses.

But he considers himself a Challenger player, and what about all the times lower end players have beaten higher end players?

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20185 votes

The court doesn't care how the defendant views himself. The court cares about the absolute fact that he fought against someone who is factually better than him.

The only way you could use his view of himself is if you argue he thinks he could actually win the fight, which would make him delusional and not inting.

JamareeOct 25, 20184 votes

{quoted}

The court doesn't care how the defendant views himself. The court cares about the absolute fact that he fought against someone who is factually better than him.

The only way you could use his view of himself is if you argue he thinks he could actually win the fight, which would make him delusional and not inting.

Didn't realize this was a court.

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20184 votes

If you're nitpicking that, then you're ignoring the analogy.

How he views himself doesn't matter. We are talking about actually.

Hashinshin's ban is a great example of why what he says isn't gospel and shouldn't be taken as such.

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