Riot needs to stop ignoring Shaco and addressing only him via the nerf bat

Kr1sys··48 votes·3,558 views

Hello all (yes, even those Shaco haters),

I want to talk about Shaco, and more importantly the upcoming nerfs on PBE. Yes, yes, they're on PBE so not officially live, but if you've played this game more than a couple days you know that iterations of PBE show a direction Riot feels they need to move in, and while the numbers may not be final, they are likely close to the desired outcome.

To start, I'm going to go back to pre-rework:

Design: You had an assassin, with early stealth capability and a decently strong early game at the cost of a poor mid game with a good late game. AD was for jungle, AP was for lane.

Abilities:

Passive: Did 20% increased damage to champions that had their back turned to Shaco

Q: Stealth had 3.5 sec duration, high mana cost, and next auto gave crit with bonus damage, and you could only cough while in stealth without revealing yourself

**W: **Had next to no health, did full damage to turrets

E: Had base damage, the lowest slow in the game

R: Changes discussed below

_Rework Shaco: _

Passive: Crits from behind in a god awful clunky algorithm that literally says if the attack was going to crit based on your crit chance it goes on CD anyways

Q: Duration gutted to scale by level(1.5 / 2.25 / 3 / 3.75 / 4.5), gave it an AP ratio, extended the cooldown, but gave most back when he autos with it, and he can do more than cough during Q without being revealed.

[FUN FACT: Champions have a vision range of 1200 units, Shaco can travel a maximum of 975/1237/1500/1762/2025 based on base ms, It used to be 1675 at all ranks]

W: Gave them health so they don't die when a support looks at them, gave them duration based on AP. Halved their damage to turrets, and made turrets one shot them(they did this anyways but ok) Oh yeah, and you can't stack them, and good lord is its interaction terrible.

E: Removed the base damage.(1- see below) Increased early slow back to old E levels a few seasons ago. Removed its debuff to monsters. Changed scaling to ignore base AD, and slightly reduced AP scaling(100 to 90)

R: Nerfed Clone's damage to turrets, but can attack things like plants, wards, etc[THANK FUCKING GOD]. Gave him mini Ws when it dies.

PBE Shaco Changes(As of Dec 9th):

**Q: **50% ap bonus to 40%

E: Ap ratio from 90% to 75%(God dam, this ability does NOTHING until they're low)

R: A third of its base explosion damage removed

Problem: You took AD Shaco and gutted him in the rework. You gave him AP ratios and scalings which helped, but in turn you nerfed the AD side of him. It's not at all surprising that Shaco players like myself went AP because even several seasons ago, most of his actual damage was AP and not AD. All you did was polarize him by forcing players to go AP instead of AD. The changes with his Passive and Q deleted AD shaco from the game. Now you're taking away the damage from AP, without adding back in the AD. Stop punishing Shaco for getting ahead, he always has been a champion completely based on how he's doing in comparison to the enemy team. He has no steroids, a playstyle that is almost completely dependent on either the enemy team or your own being aware, and if he falls behind, is still terrible at clearing the jungle(2 - see below).

(1)Don't give me shit about that it does do damage, in comparison to old E, his new E doesn't do a thing against targets (2)Literally any other jungle (and even quite a few lane) champions in the game can just afk farm the jungle at a better rate and better sustain than Shaco

At some point you need to speak out about Shaco, and what you're going to do with him. Stop ignoring literally every thread that is explicitly addressing the concerns around him. Doing this olaf'd shit has to go.

https://youtu.be/xjzzLelV0Y0

Edit: formatting

45 Comments

WhaiiSoSerious11 votes

I couldn't have said it any better.

Truely blows my mind at the decisions that Riot is making. I mean seriously.. someone must really hate Shaco back there.

Naomi CoffeeGoat6 votes

This is widely known Riot hates Shaco. And why he hasn't really been touched since the assassin rework.

Kr1sys4 votes

{quoted}

This is widely known Riot hates Shaco. And why he hasn't really been touched since the assassin rework.

Before then he wasn't touched for nearly two full seasons I believe.

Predatorator4 votes

it's not much since his the harsh treatment he got but...he's not getting any major changes because he's in line for a vgu

VexingRaven5 votes

{quoted}

it's not much since his the harsh treatment he got but...he's not getting any major changes because he's in line for a vgu

I couldn't care less about a visual update and I don't understand why Riot is tying critical gameplay balancing with useless visual updates.

Predatorator2 votes

It's not only a visual touch-up. It's a visual and gameplay rehaul: shaco gets do be rebuilt from the ground. This will make it possbile to actually improve his gameplay, solving his core problems (a la poppy, if you like). However this will take lots of resources, and other champions will get it before him.
Tying critical gameplay balancing with visual updates is necessary to shaco because he got an outdated model, and his current kit suffers from health problems that prevent any "decent" balancing, without undergoing serious changes. so here's what vgu's are for.

blutschaufel4 votes

I don't get you point. You say, that Shaco has to be in the trashbin , so he can wait there for the alleged VGA, that is supposed to have unnamed gameplay changes aswell .

How are these points correlated? I can not, for the life of it, imagine how these harsh nerfes were needed as a balancing issue at the moment.

Not to mention, that the Ulti nerf will also nerf AD Shaco again aswell .

Really, if a Riot employee had at least the decency to explain what the thought behind these changes overall are, i'd be less frustrated. But as for the moment, i am not really interested in playing ranked in this game any longer as a Shaco main.

But hey, maybe better Shaco players can and want to adjust to another nerfbat. I have had enough. Honestly.

Predatorator1 votes

it's not my point, because i'm not well-informed about shaco's situation to make a valid one. I'm just trying to make things more clear by explaining how things usually work.

BlackHairedGirl1 votes

These comments will all be four. I need to stop playing Jhin. Jhin

EDIT: please help Cannot finish task

Kr1sys1 votes

{quoted}

It's not only a visual touch-up. It's a visual and gameplay rehaul: shaco gets do be rebuilt from the ground. This will make it possbile to actually improve his gameplay, solving his core problems (a la poppy, if you like). However this will take lots of resources, and other champions will get it before him.
Tying critical gameplay balancing with visual updates is necessary to shaco because he got an outdated model, and his current kit suffers from health problems that prevent any "decent" balancing, without undergoing serious changes. so here's what vgu's are for.

Riot also originally planned a full rework in s4 and nothing materialized from it. There's no reason for a champion to be dumpstered since they're going to have a vgu. Especially considering all the changes made in the assassin update.

WhaiiSoSerious9 votes

This should be sticky'd.

I love how they reply to other threads regarding nerfs/buffs but nothing as of yet regarding Shaco's funeral.

blutschaufel2 votes

Why would it be stickied ? A Riot employee would have to appreciate well thought-through critique of their gameplay changes. That would mean, that they support critique against their colleagues. I haven't seen this much integrity in this company in 6 years.

But hey, i am not regulary on this board anymore. So what do i know :I

Shac Norris2 votes

Took them 2 weeks before they even addressed Shaco's BUGS after his update in one of my posts, then it took another 2 weeks before they fixed it.

Shaco my BFF9 votes

Riot be like, "Bro, his E has base damage..."

base damage of 5 @ rank 1 hehe xd Rank 5 has same base damage as other champions' at rank 1.

Ulquiorra9956 votes

But it has up to 8% missing HP damage! That totally warrants the destruction of base damage and scaling coughLeeSin 340 + 180% AD + 8% missing HPcough

swagyeet4201 votes

Except his q is a skillshot that can be dodged, and the 2nd activation can be outplayed and usually is by competent players (playing the right champs), it's his main damaging ability whereas shacos is backstabbing with q aa buff

I'm not denying that lee sin has a bit too much going for him, but that was a bad comparison

doublelift fg6 votes

if he jumps to you with his W and kick you you're stunned and can't dodge his Q

even if you can dodge lee Q, lee Q also reveals and does x2 more damage

AND ON TOP OF THAT IT ALLOWS LEE TO DASH ON YOU

Ulquiorra9957 votes

It is actually a pretty good comparison. Let's try approaching it from a more broad angle.

Shaco's backstab Q + E deal a total of 225% bonus AD, 157 base damage and 8% missing HP. That's 45% more scaling but 183 less base damage. This means that at 406 bonus AD for three of Shaco's abilities together deal equivalent damage to a single Lee Q. Can you honestly tell me that this is fair? That it being a skillshot warantees it being stronger by itself than more than half of Shaco's kit?

TWITCHTV ERONATE5 votes

I don't understand why they're changing him at all, he was perfectly fine before. They just needed to reduce his invisibility time in exchange for the removal of pink wards effect

Like they just made him feel horrible to play for absolutely no reason. I think they know themselves that his rework was a failure but they won't bring back old shaco anyways Also, I'm not much of a shaco player so this isn't biased at all. I'm just saying from my experience and what I've seen in my games

Miror B4 votes

Yeah, seeing a bunch of the changes sorta makes me think that Rito painted their new office and is just high on paint fumes with the updates. Shaco ends up being one of the funnest/more "un-oppressive" assassins in the meta, so they rework him and make him relatively useless. Meanwhile, Rengar/Kat aren't at all OP yet they suddenly become ridiculously powerful with no immediate nerfs in sight. It really makes me wish there was a way to do "custom modes", to eliminate all the bad updates and only keep the good ones.

Saianna4 votes

Lee was nerfed, cause he was tad oppresive, so we nerfed his R (after 4 fucking years finally did he get nerfed).

Shaco? Not even full month and he already receives gutting.


If someone dares say Riot is not biased towards certain champions, I'll find where you live, I'll visit you and then I'll use your dumb mug as a practice dummy for my punching lessons with metal gauntles with rusty nails.

Mommy Elise4 votes

I'm not a huge fan of playing vs Shaco but at the same time a lot of the stuff people get mad at Shaco about is relatively easy to avoid if you're smart and adapt, and even then, as you said, his midgame isn't the greatest.

I've found the CONCEPT of Shaco interesting, as a jungle main myself, but I don't know if I'd ever touch the champion, especially with the nerfs and update. His aesthetic doesn't really appeal to me (Yes, I get it, people like killer clowns for some reason but I'm not even that huge of a fan of the Joker or other takes the on the concept, and I'm not a huge fan of it here), I like the kit on a base level but it feels rather weak because of, honestly, kind of abysmal clears.

I wish they would actually take a look at Shaco and just... do something with him? Maybe Shaco mains will disagree with me, they probably will, but I feel like his age as a champion really shows.

JhomasTefferson2 votes

I could almost play him post rework, but if these nerfs go thru im going to stick to teemo.

Kr1sys1 votes

{quoted}

I could almost play him post rework, but if these nerfs go thru im going to stick to teemo.

I'll keep playing him due to his playstyle not changing too much. He's probably the most fun champ to me in the game, but the biggest issue is forcing him to be so polarized since rework, by not buffing the AD Shaco is just going to dumpster him

blutschaufel1 votes

Good on you, mate. I have like 6k games with him, enjoy his playstyle so much, but am honestly so frustrated, that i am on the verge of quitting. The straight lack of communication from Riots side is probably the worst thing.

DemoGuide2 votes

Well, time to play tank shaco. But zz'rot nerf and ult base dmg nerfs are super sad.

Dracocrash2 votes

But riot is not ignoring shaco. Remmember the crit change they made for his backstab? if shaco's attack would normally crit, it will ignore back stab and deal the full crit damage.

Does that sound like ignoring??They are addressing shaco, but all you want to do is whine.

Jbels3 votes

[{quoted}](name=NoganksOnlyFarm ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gs265JMd,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2016-12-10T11:50:40.913+0000)

But riot is not ignoring shaco. Remmember the crit change they made for his backstab? if shaco's attack would normally crit, it will ignore back stab and deal the full crit damage.

Does that sound like ignoring??They are addressing shaco, but all you want to do is whine.

oh yeah no that's great. Except like the OP said, it puts the passive on cooldown regardless of which source your crit came what. What? Why would you have two conflicting mechanics like that on a champion that would at least LIKE to build crit?

WhatAGeinius4 votes

That was basically just a bug fix. Crit Shaco was garbage before the rework when his kit actually had really good synergy with crit (I.E. Q was a 220% crit at max rank that was further increased by infinity edge and backstab stacked another 20% damage on top of that) now that Q has literally (and I do mean literally) no AD scaling and the best case scenario on a backstab is that he ignores his fucking passive ability and just does as much crit damage as he would if he were hitting them from the front, it's even more garbage than before.

They aren't addressing anything when it comes to his actual gameplay, they just fixed some bugs and now they're just hitting his numbers with the nerf bat.

Kr1sys4 votes

[{quoted}](name=NoganksOnlyFarm ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gs265JMd,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2016-12-10T11:50:40.913+0000)

But riot is not ignoring shaco. Remmember the crit change they made for his backstab? if shaco's attack would normally crit, it will ignore back stab and deal the full crit damage.

Does that sound like ignoring??They are addressing shaco, but all you want to do is whine.

If you actually read the post you'd see what's wrong with it.

Backstab 'crits' do X damage, it checks before if you would crit through items/runes/etc. It goes on cool down regardless. And that was the fix. It renders crit as a less useful Stat and boosts cdr to lower the cool down of Backstab procs.

Before if you were to crit through items and such you took the lower Backstab damage instead, which made it more beneficial to just attack at the front and not risk losing the extra damage.

It's a terrible design and desperately needs looked at for AD

ff4sk1 votes

That's fixing a fucking bug that should've been fucking fixed during the fucking rework, not leaving him gimped with a shit passive that disables his crit and thunderlords.

Jaygo411 votes

Any dissenting opinion is downvoted... These kids would rather whine about Rengar when not even Janna can deal with Shaco

Troy2426211 votes

Loved the SNL skit. In any event, Rito has hated us Shaco mains for a long timer :c.

MXXXXXL1 votes

The laughing going on in that SNL skit you linked is Riot's laughing at the idea of being logical and fixing these changes.

Knalxz1 votes

I can't wait for the "Better nerf Shaco" memes.

TheCheekySneak1 votes

I can't honestly remember Riot ever gracing Shaco with a single buff, I might be wrong on this but I think the poor guy has literally only seen nerfs.

Kr1sys5 votes

{quoted}

I can't honestly remember Riot ever gracing Shaco with a single buff, I might be wrong on this but I think the poor guy has literally only seen nerfs.

The rework is the closest thing to a buff Shaco has ever got, because it upped ap Shaco at the cost of ad, now they're dropping the numbers to overall nerf.

They nerfed q distance in s3 I believe. Slow from e in s4. Changed interaction with monsters on e in s5 and here we are.

blutschaufel3 votes

No no no no. Shaco had ONE slight buff 2 years ago or something. The rest of his history are straight nerfs. All of it. I am willing to wager, that there isn't a single champ, that was as much nerfed as Shaco was.

Latex Choker4 votes

If I remember correctly Vladimir actually holds the record of most nerfed champion in the game.

blutschaufel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=007 James Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gs265JMd,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-10T23:54:35.099+0000)

If I remember correctly Vladimir actually holds the record of most nerfed champion in the game. Actually we both stand corrected.

https://www.google.de/search?q=most+nerfed+champ+in+league&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=FrdMWOf6NOzk8A%%%4DIBg#q=most+nerfed+champion+in+league

Ravore1 votes

They're probably just going to nerf him into oblivion so you have to flame anyone who ever picks him like kalista or azir

Shattered Mind1 votes

I didn't read the post but Shaco is not a problem for me at least. maybe people in bronze just suck with him? but maybe he needs to be better idk thats just what i have to say about him.

MrSimpleBlanket1 votes

I literally just laned against Shaco as Yasuo and i swear to god he deserves WAY bigger nerfs. I windwall his e, box starts attacking me it does over 1904 dmg to me and it kills me by itself. This was around lvl 8 and he would not recall until i died 4 times after just instakilling me with q + e + hextech protobelt

Kr1sys1 votes

{quoted}

I literally just laned against Shaco as Yasuo and i swear to god he deserves WAY bigger nerfs. I windwall his e, box starts attacking me it does over 1904 dmg to me and it kills me by itself. This was around lvl 8 and he would not recall until i died 4 times after just instakilling me with q + e + hextech protobelt

Fortunately bad players don't dictate what is nerfed and what isn't.

MrSimpleBlanket1 votes

{quoted}

Fortunately bad players don't dictate what is nerfed and what isn't.

LOL! another bad butthurt shaco main crying because somewhat insulted his fav champ

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