another comprehensive (small scale) garen rework by a garen main

Critmaster Garen··12 votes·823 views

why rework garen?

one major reason really. hes doing terribly. next to his overall weak state, he is probably the champion with the lowest skillcap in the game, with the highest ranked garen mains capping out at diamond 5 with the champion.

the goals for the rework:

  • increase mechanical depth while keeping his kit easy to understand and pick up for people who are new to him.
  • tackle a couple of his core issues, like the complete lack of access to even minor forms of in combat sustain that every other juggernaut has available, and allows him to stay in extended fights without being guaranteed to lose battles of attrition.
  • increase his overall performance

i will go further into detail following each individual change to his abilities that ive thought out.

one major thing that i havent adressed is his villain mechanic, and apart from the specific changes that are mentioned, his abilities stay the same.


so lets get into it

Perseverance (passive): regenerates a % of his missing health every second while out of combat

changed from 2%/4%/10% of his max health over 5 seconds.

cooldown: changed to 8 seconds from 9/6/4 seconds

context: not much of a change here. during the lane phase, his passive shouldnt change much except for working better at low health when pressured hard by his opponent, and less when his health bar is close to full.

the regeneration around mid and lategame should be largely decreased in favour of a new interaction between his passive and his spin.

decisive strike: slow cleanse removed

context: the functionality of the slow cleanse was moved to his w.

courage (active): changed to negate all incoming crowd control within .75 seconds and granting 30% damage reduction for 2 seconds upon activation. if movment impairing crowd control is negated, the damage reduction is extended to 6 seconds.

from: 30% damage reduction for 2/3/4/5/6 seconds

context: this is the first big change. similar to fioras riposte it becomes a game of trying to anticipate and negate enemy crowd control effects for garen, and trying to bait out the ability for his opponent to be able to then follow up with cc and be able to kite garen.

on its own, the ability becomes a lot less reliable as a defensive steroid. but should garen be able to use it to full effect and anticipate and negate enemy cc with proper reaction, it becomes a lot more impact full in return.

judgement: armor shred debuff removed

added effect: when enemy champions or epic monsters are hit by spins, perseverance activates for 0.5 seconds when judgement ends, even while garen is in combat. (stacks up to 5 seconds max)

context: while the armor shred debuff was a decent idea on paper, ultimately it did little to make him any more viable of a champion overall. considering item 3071 is one of garens most stat effective items and was a staple on him since its rework in season 3, combined with the fact that its passive stacks poorly with his own % shred, it didnt actually add anything new or helpful to his kit. as far as im concerned, its excess power that can easily be cut off in favour of something more useful.

here comes the second big change into play. garen is a juggernaut. hes a slow moving champion who is supposed to try and get into arms length of his opponent, deal large amounts of damage, and be rewarded for being able to stay in range and take extended fights.

his passive is in my personal opinion one of the largest factors that holds him back. hes not a skirmisher. he is one of the slowest champions in the game. the expectation to be able to engage to be able to take trades with his opponent, then disengage to regenerate health and then reengage to fight is almost laughable in my opinion. it just doesnt work out. he doesnt have the mobility of a skirmisher to pull that kind of playstile. even amongst juggernauts hes not exceptionally fast, considering champions like udyr and shyvana are being grouped in with him. which effectively leaves him without any form of in combat sustain at all.

this is a massive factor in extended fights against any champion with access to lifesteal or their own inbuilt sustain mechanics.

this change aims at two things:

  • reward him for being able to stay in fights and make his passive more versatile to allow him to take battles of attrition
  • increase decision making around the ability. in large scale fights against many opponents, his passive would charge up faster than against a single opponent. the fact that the health regeneration is tied to the cancel of the spin, allows him to chose to trade damage for sustain when neccessary.

if he manages to charge up the heal quickly, he has the choice between letting the spin keep running to deal more damage, or to cancel it early to immediately regain health. the nature of the % missing health heal also incentivises him to take risks and cancel the spin as late as possible to maximize the regeneration effect.


final thoughts:

there are a couple of other mechanics i havent touched, that could be addressed going further. mostly because i havent come up with really fleshed out ideas in those cases yet.

  • the 33% damage amp on his spin against single targets as it is implemented is a clear case of invisible power. while its a mechanic that increases mechanical depth on his spin, playing around choice and positioning, it probably needs change or just be more readable overall.

  • some of the more recent abilities like talons new q, and the rework warwicks q are case sensitive if theyre being used as a gap closer or while already in melee range of the enemy. imo it would be very fitting for garens q to have an empowered effect when activated in melee range over using the ability to close the distance to his opponent. one option would be an increased silence duration. even if its just half a second.

  • his villain mechanic could probably use an overhaul. the general idea, of giving him the villain mechanic to create a specific strategic nieche as an anti-carry, is good. but right now it takes up a large portion of his power budget for too little payoff. even in his nieche hes still outshined by darius, who can just fight anyone in front of him and be just as effective as garen against the villain. then he can continue to bulldoze through the rest of the enemy team. garen isnt even better at fighting the villain 1v1 than darius as "aoe teamfight juggernaut" is in a 1v1.

17 Comments

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

the 33% damage amp on his spin against single targets as it is implemented is a clear case of invisible power. while its a mechanic that increases mechanical depth on his spin, playing around choice and positioning, it probably needs change or just be more readable overall.

IMO it should be changed to increase the damage when he's in a group.

After all, you're a juggernaut, you want to spin in your enemies. But you gimp your own damage by doing so.

But if he does more damage when there are more enemy champs around, then you actually have a chance of doing what Garen shouts when he spins.

"BREAK THEIR RANKS!"

DeathBurst1 votes

Meh, I don't agree with your analysis of the current situation. Doing 133% damage to 1 enemy is still less damage than 200% to two enemies. Or even 300% or 400% if there are more than two.

That being said, what I do agree with, is that Juggernaut should be incentivize to team-fight. As it is, the best path to success for Garen is split-pushing, which isn't exactly thematic or intuitive.

On the other hand, I do love split-pushing, so I'm not sure I'd be happy with such an incentive. But I have to admit, it's more logical.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

Hmm, do slows count for his W?

Also, any R changes? It seems like the best anti-tank execute in the game, if they're the villain it can do upwards 1k true damage if they're low, while against squishies who are not the villain, Hexdrinker simply negates it, for the most part. Even if they aren't the Villain, 1k+ magic damage is really strong, even if it is reduced down to 500 or so.

It's also the least healthy execute imo, because 1) It's semi-ranged, unlike Cho'Gath's, 2) it does more damage than Darius's, who can really only run up to someone and R them if they're <200 health, so it's healthier because it requires stacks/a really low target. Cho at least needs to get into melee range, and he is really slow, with semi-dodgable CC(if you're running away and he casts it on top/right in front of you, it's pretty damn hard to dodge as an immobile mage unless you predict it and juke to the side before the indicator even appears).

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gnRtX9lj,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-19T14:03:09.127+0000)

Hmm, do slows count for his W?

Also, any R changes? It seems like the best anti-tank execute in the game, if they're the villain it can do upwards 1k true damage if they're low, while against squishies who are not the villain, Hexdrinker simply negates it, for the most part. Even if they aren't the Villain, 1k+ magic damage is really strong, even if it is reduced down to 500 or so.

It's also the least healthy execute imo, because 1) It's semi-ranged, unlike Cho'Gath's, 2) it does more damage than Darius's, who can really only run up to someone and R them if they're <200 health, so it's healthier because it requires stacks/a really low target. Cho at least needs to get into melee range, and he is really slow, with semi-dodgable CC(if you're running away and he casts it on top/right in front of you, it's pretty damn hard to dodge as an immobile mage unless you predict it and juke to the side before the indicator even appears).

as i said at the end of my post, im not going into the villain mechanic here. mainly bcause i dont have a fleshed out concept of what coud be improved about it at the time.

his ultimate and the whole concept of the villain mechanic to make him an anti-carry are fine in my opinion. evn if the villain mechanic definitely needs some tuning.

and the ult cast range is only slightly out of melee range. most people dont realize that once the animation started, it will finish through to the end and hit you even when you dashed or flashed away after that initial cast, it will hit you at your new position. this is why the range appears larger than it actually is. its a mechanic that many champion abilities share due to how ability animations work in general.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gnRtX9lj,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-04-19T18:35:33.404+0000)

as i said at the end of my post, im not going into the villain mechanic here. mainly bcause i dont have a fleshed out concept of what coud be improved about it at the time.

his ultimate and the whole concept of the villain mechanic to make him an anti-carry are fine in my opinion. evn if the villain mechanic definitely needs some tuning.

and the ult cast range is only slightly out of melee range. most people dont realize that once the animation started, it will finish through to the end and hit you even when you dashed or flashed away after that initial cast, it will hit you at your new position. this is why the range appears larger than it actually is. its a mechanic that many champion abilities share due to how ability animations work in general.

Yeah, but it's bigger than Cho's R, and Garen has a lot of range on his Q :/ - coming from a melee main.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gnRtX9lj,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-19T20:01:51.868+0000)

Yeah, but it's bigger than Cho's R, and Garen has a lot of range on his Q :/ - coming from a melee main.

cho is a disruptive tank with 2 forms of aoe cc. hitting his knockup and silence almost guarantees him to be able to close the gap for a feast.

plus, feast has other advantages next to the same true damage as a garen ult against the villain. objective control (it almost deals twice the damage of smite), much shorter cooldown, and the ability to be able to use it at any point in a fight.

Ralanr1 votes

Wait, so his W has a max duration of 6 seconds no matter the rank as long as the trigger for extending the duration is activated?

Is this to justify it being a one point wonder? Since it makes its special factor pointless late game since it already lasts 6 seconds. Would he get an additional six seconds added to his current count?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Wait, so his W has a max duration of 6 seconds no matter the rank as long as the trigger for extending the duration is activated?

Is this to justify it being a one point wonder? Since it makes its special factor pointless late game since it already lasts 6 seconds. Would he get an additional six seconds added to his current count?

it would be flat 6 seconds at all ranks when he manages to shake off crowd control, the cooldown of the ability itself goes down with rank. but its to make up for the fact that its less reliable as a defense steroid past the first point than it is right now.

however, the new sustain mechanic on his spin would scale into lategame with the increased amount of spin ticks, and synergize with the damage reduction.

think about it like this. in lane trades at early levels, you need to get a full spin on an opponent to trigger the passive for 2.5 seconds, and get the damage reduction once in a fight.

lategame, you could get 5 seconds of regeneration off a full spin on a champion, which would allow you to prolong the fight and trigger the prolonged damage reduction 2, maybe 3 times during that fight with the reduced cooldown and 40% cdr.

youd also be able to spin a lot more often and thus heal more on cdr cap.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

So there's literally no reason to level his W past 1 point? Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but the implementation needs a bit of work. Also, for clarification, his W doesn't cleanse CC, it just negates incoming CC, right?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

So there's literally no reason to level his W past 1 point? Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but the implementation needs a bit of work. Also, for clarification, his W doesn't cleanse CC, it just negates incoming CC, right?

the cooldown goes down. which is bigger than it might sound at first.

combined with the new sustain mechanic, it would make him quite beefy, should he manage to get the full duration damage reduction multiple times in extended fights.

DeathBurst1 votes

Nice post :) We had opportunities to chat about this before, but seeing it in a full-fledged kit is interesting. A few comments below.

  • Passive: the strength of the heal doesn't change at all over the game? It's a valid possibility, but I still find that a bit strange. I think the CD should be synchronized with Warmog (which is currently at 6s on PBE), but it's a tiny detail.
  • Q: doesn't cleanse slow anymore, but still gives MS, right? This change makes Q a far less complex skills. Before, you had to balance the need to use it as a gap-closer and the need to keep off CD for when they slow you. Now, you just use it every time it's off CD, no matter what, especially since Garen doesn't use mana. I'm not entirely sure I like it. I do like your melee versus ranged suggestion in the end though. There can even be some nice and very readable animations, like Garen runs with his sword in front of him and stab for reduced damage, or keep the current over-head big cleave if he is already in melee.
  • W: this ability already is a one-point wonder, but what scales with rank in your version? Looks like nothing at all, which is really not cool. Also, I'm a little worried by the extended duration trigger. I like the idea on principles, but in practice... Either it will count slows and will be trivially easy to trigger, or it won't, and then against team with low CC (which Garen should like, as all Juggernauts), he will be left with very little access to his damage reduction (2s is quite short). That's partially compensated by the new P/E interaction, but I'm not sure it's enough. Also, I assume you can still move during the .75s immunity, so there is important work to do here regarding readability and clarity.
  • E: it's one stack per tick AND per champion hit? That will stack quite fast in team-fight, indeed. It's the core of your suggestion and we discussed it already, I like it. But if it's exactly the same value as the standard out of combat regen, it may be tricky to balance. Too low and it won't be impactful during a fight, but too high and the standard OoC regen will be too strong in lane. Maybe double the value if it triggers from E or something like that?
  • Villain passive: you underestimate it severely. Darius can't kill a squishy as quickly as Garen, you can literally aa-Q-1s of E-R and it's enough for most ADCs or glass-canon Assassins. Maybe not some Mages who have HP in their itemization, but it's definitely faster than Darius who need to combo to get his stacks. Also, if you manage to kill the Villain first, you can also bulldoze through the rest of the enemy team, simply by virtue of your Villain passive bouncing on them. But at the same time, I think you *over-*estimate the power budget associated to the mechanic. I'm pretty sure it amounts for a marginal fraction of his power budget. I'd like more clarity and more intelligence in how the Villain is chosen, currently it can feels a bit random, but I like the game-play it creates, especially when the Villain ends up on a sub-optimal target. Do you take some risk and rush the Villain in hope of sniping him and starting the bounce train, or do you keep it safe and focus the person at hand with reduced damage?
Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Nice post :) We had opportunities to chat about this before, but seeing it in a full-fledged kit is interesting. A few comments below.

  • Passive: the strength of the heal doesn't change at all over the game? It's a valid possibility, but I still find that a bit strange. I think the CD should be synchronized with Warmog (which is currently at 6s on PBE), but it's a tiny detail.

the passive naturally scales up as hes building more health. the out of combat regeneration wouldnt scale up to be as strong as it is now. but quite franky, its not even neccessary. if you need more out of combat regeneration, you can always just build warmogs.

its similar to the armor shred on his spin. since they put these passives on items that are easily accessible to him, it doesnt really add anthing to his kit.

imo the out of combat regeneration is still neccessary early on, to help him survive under constant enemy poke. but mid to lategame its not more than a gimmick that he can buy if he wants it.

id gladly sacrifice some of his lvl 16 health regeneration to make his passive just more versatile.

  • Q: doesn't cleanse slow anymore, but still gives MS, right? This change makes Q a far less complex skills. Before, you had to balance the need to use it as a gap-closer and the need to keep off CD for when they slow you. Now, you just use it every time it's off CD, no matter what, especially since Garen doesn't use mana. I'm not entirely sure I like it. I do like your melee versus ranged suggestion in the end though. There can even be some nice and very readable animations, like Garen runs with his sword in front of him and stab for reduced damage, or keep the current over-head big cleave if he is already in melee.

the q wouldnt slow cleanse anymore, since the w breaks cc. however, i agree that the q still could use some changes aswell.

  • W: this ability already is a one-point wonder, but what scales with rank in your version? Looks like nothing at all, which is really not cool. Also, I'm a little worried by the extended duration trigger. I like the idea on principles, but in practice... Either it will count slows and will be trivially easy to trigger, or it won't, and then against team with low CC (which Garen should like, as all Juggernauts), he will be left with very little access to his damage reduction (2s is quite short). That's partially compensated by the new P/E interaction, but I'm not sure it's enough. Also, I assume you can still move during the .75s immunity, so there is important work to do here regarding readability and clarity.

you would be able to move during the .75 seconds.

the w would scale down in cooldown with rank, which sounds less impact full than it is. if he can sustain himself through fights and take extended trades, then this means the damage reduction and health regeneration start to syngergize with each other.

  • E: it's one stack per tick AND per champion hit? That will stack quite fast in team-fight, indeed. It's the core of your suggestion and we discussed it already, I like it. But if it's exactly the same value as the standard out of combat regen, it may be tricky to balance. Too low and it won't be impactful during a fight, but too high and the standard OoC regen will be too strong in lane. Maybe double the value if it triggers from E or something like that?

i can se how it could take a while to balance the regen. but since its % missing health, its supposed to be weaker when used at full health, and stronger when close to death. which incentivizes him to take some risks and activate it as late as possible. either by letting the full spin run through, or by cancelling it at the last moment.

so its supposed to be strong or weak, depending how you use it.

  • Villain passive: you underestimate it severely. Darius can't kill a squishy as quickly as Garen, you can literally aa-Q-1s of E-R and it's enough for most ADCs or glass-canon Assassins. Maybe not some Mages who have HP in their itemization, but it's definitely faster than Darius who need to combo to get his stacks. Also, if you manage to kill the Villain first, you can also bulldoze through the rest of the enemy team, simply by virtue of your Villain passive bouncing on them. But at the same time, I think you *over-*estimate the power budget associated to the mechanic. I'm pretty sure it amounts for a marginal fraction of his power budget. I'd like more clarity and more intelligence in how the Villain is chosen, currently it can feels a bit random, but I like the game-play it creates, especially when the Villain ends up on a sub-optimal target. Do you take some risk and rush the Villain in hope of sniping him and starting the bounce train, or do you keep it safe and focus the person at hand with reduced damage?

im not sure about the villain passive vs. darius situation. id say in some cases yes, in other cases no. but honestly, i dont have much of a better idea concerning that. so id rather focus on the other abilites i tried to adress.

DeathBurst1 votes

the q wouldnt slow cleanse anymore, since the w breaks cc. however, i agree that the q still could use some changes aswell.

"Break"? À la Gankplank's oranges? I thought you had to activate it preemptively, but couldn't use it if already stunned/silenced. And you didn't answer about whether slows trigger the extended duration or not.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

"Break"? À la Gankplank's oranges? I thought you had to activate it preemptively, but couldn't use it if already stunned/silenced. And you didn't answer about whether slows trigger the extended duration or not.

sorry i misworded that there.

no, it wouldnt break cc. just preemptively. i think since the cooldown is long enough and there is a decent amount of spamable slows in this game, and you have to use it preemptively, it should work against slows.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Just swap Q and R

and then make everyone who isn't Garen a villain

his passive no longer gets disabled either

R since swapped with Q now silences you until you are no longer the villain because its now an ultimate

KoalaDoll1 votes

I love garen, I really do, and I wish he'd get some love Warwick -rework style (seriously riot if any of you read this that rework is amazing!).

That being said I dont think something of this scope is bound anytime soon. Garen is in some sort of limbo, where he's being kept simple and weak for the sake of being a scapegoat, a "noob champ" everyone learn the ropes on. Thats why we can see him stomping low elo by abusing the extremely inexperienced players at the expense of him being garbage-tier anywhere above mid-plat due to lacking any real depth and play-making ability. All of his power is invested in his E and in stupid ways (honestly why do we need isolated damage on an AOE ability, on a champion that wants to be in the thick of battle?, CD refund is laughable). W is invisible power (that's also mediocre at best), Q is way too telegraphed, P doesn't synergise at all with his kit and R is basically completely outshone by his noxian rival item 3070 Darius item 3070

But honestly I think the problem goes beyond garen at this point, juggernauts as a whole are extremely niche rn (why pick a slow juggernaut when you can pick a fast flashy diver, build him tanky and get similar results, with added benefits of CC and mobility?).

Currently I feel there are 1.5 juggernauts in the game; Darius for being an all around really good champion, that delivers exactly what you want and expect from a juggernaut, and then some (tanky as hell + in-combat sustain, god-mode damage post P proc, and on top of that decent CC) and Illaoi (the 0.5) for the absurd AOE damage she can dish out, the downside being you need to really mess up in order to get hit by her in the first place.

So the fact that garen's alter-ego (lel) is all around the only viable option in his sub-class doesn't help his odds.

The Lost Marbles1 votes

Can I add one small thing?

Make Decisive Strike's animation faster with Garen's level, like they did with Lucian's Q.

It really has no business still being that clunky late-game.

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