Myths about Lethality

Rock MD · 2017-02-13T01:19:23.588Z

Since Lethality is big right now I thought i'd clear some stuff up. Why? Because while I hate it, I also hate seeing a forum clogged up with information that just isn't entirely true. It doesn't help the average player and it certainly doesn't help Riot. So here are a few common statements about Lethality and why they're true or not. "Ranged champions are ruining Lethality for assassins." This is flat out false. While AD caster marksmen have received notable buffs and are seeing significantly more play in LCS, everything and anything AD is flourishing in ranked. I've seen Pantheons, Quinns, Jayces, Jhins, etc. The only 2 ADs I don't see are Kha'Zix and Rengar, and that's not a case of them being bad, that's a case of being permabanned. "Lethality isn't as good as armor pen." (at any stage in the game they decide to reference) True and false. Lethality is not as good very early on. However, the sheer amount of it introduced makes it so that the difference in values is not noticeable. However, Lethality gets a huge powerspike late-game. Remember when Jhin had like 40 armor pen and couldn't hurt a tank to save his life? He now has roughly double that armor pen at level 18. (as i clarified below you will probably have a Cleaver on your team so now that 40 extra pen is quite relevant) "Lethality needs to be nerfed, not any particular champions." "APs are now irrelevant past 30 minutes." While I understand the frustration, that is false. APs get a huge drop in power mid-game to this item but late-game, when they can apply damage in repeated chunks, spellshields mean almost nothing. The only time they're relevant is when the AD in question positions so flawlessly only one or two CCs can be applied over the course of a teamfight. Hope this helps. Good luck on the Rift and try not to bump into too many Varuses and Zeds.

CancerBasedGodFeb 13, 20179 votes

Yeah but if you try to tell people that armor counters it they say lethality will just negate all armor... You're left there thinking "I can factually prove that's BS" but before you finish typing a simplified version you hope they can understand, the next lethality op thread is made. Seriously lethality may be slightly op against targets that can't build armor, but if you just play Leona instead of mage support you will be laughing.

SwiftKitten88Feb 13, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but if you try to tell people that armor counters it they say lethality will just negate all armor... You're left there thinking "I can factually prove that's BS" but before you finish typing a simplified version you hope they can understand, the next lethality op thread is made. Seriously lethality may be slightly op against targets that can't build armor, but if you just play Leona instead of mage support you will be laughing.

well seeing as the ONLY ap item with armor is item 3157 ...

and ADC dont build armor... and AD don't have ANY AD + armor options...

umm yeah its an issue...

you CAN'T just by an armor item to counter it, for the same reason you cant buy item 2055 to counter stealth when everyone reaches max items... item slots.

they are getting the stat on offensive items... there are no good defensive options vs this unless u get an item that does not increase your damage. (unless your Rammus getting AD from armor..)

CancerBasedGodFeb 13, 20172 votes

Seriously... I just made a thread saying if lethality is a problem, ADCs should have a defensive option with AD/armor... It gets a pile of downvotes... Now I say just bring Leona, and get told that's wrong. You can't win on these forums... Well except rage posts, everyone likes those.

The Yetii RiderFeb 13, 201714 votes

The issue with AD/armor is it would be abused by top laners, where it would be significantly stronger.

CancerBasedGodFeb 13, 20171 votes

I don't see why. Top laners generally have an entire item dedicated to Armor. An AD/armor item wouldn't be as powerful in either department since it's mixed. The reason it would be good on assassins and ADCs is because they can't buy a whole purely defensive item. Also tops aren't all physical anyway... Maokai, Singed, Swain, etc.

The Yetii RiderFeb 13, 20176 votes

We had an AD/armor item before. Atma's Impaler. Removed because when it was strong it created situations where a champion got a big damage spike and didn't drop off in tankiness.

Also Ezreal builds Iceborn Gauntlet and has gotten it nerfed. That's the closest thing to a marksman getting AD and Armor from the same item that we have.

Sagan ForeverFeb 13, 20173 votes

No, assasin's got iceborn nerfed. Did you forget the Akali , Ekko , and Fizz with ice on being unkillable while melting your entire team. Ezreal only led to the radius increasing the armor scaling making it so that if you wanted the huge aoe you had to biuld armor which is no problem for a tank.

Anu3isIIFeb 13, 20174 votes

Akali with Iceborn? No offence, but she never ever used it. She just rushed Sunfire and then Full Tank. Sometimes, she would buy a Titanic Hydra or a Gunblade, but nothing else really.

Hinagiku33Feb 14, 20171 votes

Wasn't that back when literally anyone could become a Tanky DPS nightmare with just item 3025 item 3068

AquafugeFeb 13, 20171 votes

I was told Atma's impaler got nuked because it did damage based on hp scaling, combined with armor and most tanks in top lane ( especially Sion and Nasus ) got incredibly stupid with it.

Anu3isIIFeb 13, 20172 votes

No, it was a powerful snowball item. Many bruisers used to buy it because it gave both damage and tankiness, while allowing you to buy defensive items.

It is a known fact that when you snowball, you can afford to buy more defensive items, to deny your opponent any chance to kill you, while you still can destroy them. Atma literally encouraged you to do that, while making you more potent in killing your opponent.

It was common to see a Garen with a tank build, then Atma out of nowhere. Same for Jarvan, Xin, sometimes Lee. It was literally a big stat-stick for how much HP they used to buy.

Also, while on paper it was good for a late game Sion, it didn't really work out until the very late game. AD Sion was too squishy, Tank Sion didn't really work.

While it may have been decent on Nasus, he didn't really have the item slots to buy it. He preferred Full-Tank build with Trinity force, and Atma wasn't that good to help him survive.

VekknaFeb 13, 20172 votes

AD/MR is abused by almost every AD champ in the game right now.

What you're saying about top lane just isn't making sense to me. How is Riven with Hexdrinker less busted vs Maokai than a Riven with Armordrinker (hypothetical item) vs Darius?

If anything, AD/armor items in top lane would be less effective than Hexdrinker, if only because most physical top laners have true damage, hp scaling, or armor shred built into their kits. Camille Darius Fiora Gangplank Garen Irelia Olaf Volibear MonkeyKing Yasuo

At that point, you're looking at a pretty small group of potential abuse cases: Nasus Gnar Illaoi LeeSin Yorick

But, again, please explain how such an item would be more broken than Hexdrinker?

The Yetii RiderFeb 13, 20173 votes

You assume that I think Hexdrinker is balanced. I don't. Hexdrinker is a phenomenal item that puts huge pressure on an AP champion and requires much more harass to land in order to prevent the enemy AD from all-inning.

Hexdrinker is permissible because it is necessary. In every never vs ranged lane, the melee needs much higher stars to make the match fair. That doesn't happen in mid lane, so you have to farm up to your higher stats. Combine that with assassins in general being harder to play than mages, and Hexdrinker sits on the cusp of OP but not so much so that nerfing it would be appropriate.

The other issue is that armor and MR are not comparable at all. MR reduces magic damage taken from champions.

Armor reduces physical damage taken, which comes from champions, monsters, minions, turrets, epic monsters, and most pets. Armor applies in many more situations, and is more valuable than MR as a stat overall.~~~~

VekknaFeb 13, 20171 votes

Hexdrinker is permissible because it is necessary. In every never vs ranged lane, the melee needs much higher stars to make the match fair.

This assumes every matchup is an AD melee vs. a ranged AP. Clearly this is not the case, but Hexdrinker still gives an advantage to every AD over every AP, regardless of range.

Combine that with assassins in general being harder to play than mages, and Hexdrinker sits on the cusp of OP but not so much so that nerfing it would be appropriate.

Huh? We were talking about top lane, and now you're talking about mid?

Even if we go with the point you're making here, it doesn't hold up when you compare Akali or Kat vs. Zed or Talon. It's even worse if you think about Kat vs. a mid Quinn or Pantheon.

There is no common trait between the champs who use Hexdrinker other than scaling off AD. They differ in range, base stats, scaling, aa vs. caster, resources, and tank vs. squishy.

The other issue is that armor and MR are not comparable at all. MR reduces magic damage taken from champions.

If the issue is the utility gap between armor and MR, then why isn't there any item that passively procs a shield that absorbs physical damage from champs?

You could leave the armor off altogether if that's the sticking point. That wouldn't make any actual sense, though, because the utility gap you described is accounted for in the item budget. A hexdrinker with armor would have the same cost, same AD, same damage shield proc, and 28 armor instead of 35 MR.

Even with the utility difference, armor is worse then MR when fighting champs. You get more MR per gold, higher base MR, higher rune MR, higher EHP from both offensive and tank items, and there is vastly less mpen and MR shred available to counter it.

The Yetii RiderFeb 13, 20171 votes

Yes, we have to talk about mid when discussing Hexdrinker, because the item was created for AD midlaners, long before Maw of Malmortius was even a thing.

Yes it provides the same benefit to a ranged AD champion. That doesn't matter because it is needed by melee AD champions.

The item's upgrade has been altered to be less appealing to marksmen, but unfortunately it's just a good item so multiple classes will build it.

There is no physical damage shield item for the same reason that there is no % bonus AD item, MR stasis item, or AS item that steals armor on-hit. Unique passive are meant to be unique. They're not offered to multiple classes.

NineTailedMysticFeb 13, 20172 votes

AD/Armor would have the same issue Abyssal used to, except in Top, Mid with AD Assassins vs AD Assassins, and ADCs vs ADCs. Whoever rushes the item first wins.

CancerBasedGodFeb 13, 20172 votes

Does Abyssal have that issue? So your argument is it will be like something that isn't game breaking, and therefor game breaking.

EnloctFeb 13, 20173 votes

It _was _ game breaking.

AlienPrimateFeb 13, 20172 votes

The whole point of being a carry who has a support being butt buddies with them all game is to not have to build any armor. Giving someone armor who doesn't have to get close in the current and most likely forever meta of support and ADC would be the same as giving every tank in the game Galio's and Rammus's passives at the same time. Damage dealers are supposed to do damage and tanks are supposed to take that damage with a certain degree of safety. Give the damage dealer safety and now every class that isn't meant to deal high damage is now irrelevant.

AimléssFeb 13, 20172 votes

If gap closers and Zed's ult didn't exist, maybe you'd have a point.

AlienPrimateFeb 13, 20172 votes

If zed jumps on my carry when I'm playing taric, alistar, leona, tahm, morgana, lulu, braum, blitzcrank, or nautilus he is going to die unless he has cleanse and qss.

AimléssFeb 18, 20171 votes

Lol maybe your'e not a silver support.

AquafugeFeb 13, 20173 votes

Gap closers and teleports are not really too big of an issue except for mage supports that generally use their cc as part of their damage rotation, If you use a traditional support and know what to expect shutting down a fast dive at your carry isn't all that hard.

Ariel the CruelFeb 13, 20172 votes

well seeing as the ONLY ap item with armor is ...

I'm not going to speak on current balance state. But the reason AP items don't have a lot of resists is because their defense stat is supposed to be health.

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MUk82bNH,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-01-20T05:37:27.158+0000)

Riot addressed this a while back. They want itemization characteristics to be different between types. For example: AP is characterized by getting a lot of health for their defense and reaching really high values late game, while AD gets resists and crit, tanks get health+resists and supplemental damage boosts (Such as Sunfire, Deadman's, and thorn), and supports get sustain + strong team effects. That's why AD doesn't get stasis.

And before "that guy" shows up, this post is not about the current state of itemization.

SwiftKitten88Feb 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gn2igRGO,comment-id=0000000000000003,timestamp=2017-02-13T18:33:10.042+0000)

I'm not going to speak on current balance state. But the reason AP items don't have a lot of resists is because their defense stat is supposed to be health.

yeah except ONLY health dones't help when they do true damage to you.

and even with the 50 armor from zhonyas that is about 100 armor max. and when they have 75 lethaility.. that pretty much means your taking true damage.

Ariel the CruelFeb 13, 20172 votes

yeah except ONLY health dones't help when they do true damage to you.

Actually, health is the only thing that does help when taking true damage. Since true damage ignores resists.

that is about 100 armor max. and when they have 75 lethaility.. that pretty much means your taking true damage.

25 armor is still 12.5% Damage reduction.

Dominick DestineFeb 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gn2igRGO,comment-id=000000000000000300000000,timestamp=2017-02-13T19:08:07.587+0000)

Actually, health is the only thing that does help when taking true damage. Since true damage ignores resists.

LOL'd hard.

This is why you are my only equal.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 13, 20171 votes

Whut.. so are U saying this Biard is retarded ? First news kappa

GULAG 4 UFeb 14, 20171 votes

item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 item 3071 item 3036

Nobody fkin builds all 5 of these items

even if you do, you would lose AS and so much lifesteal

Only jhin/kha'zix can do this reliably

CancerBasedGodFeb 14, 20172 votes

Lol, but when I said a thread was bullshit because it said people built all 5 of those, and an all AD team could reduce 600 armor ramus to 100 armor... (it reduces it to 200... and leaves you with no LS...) (yeay 10 downvotes for basic ability to think...)

GULAG 4 UFeb 14, 20171 votes

The boards' average IQ is closer to 50 than 120, don't expect much shit.

Supreme Senpai69Feb 14, 20171 votes

I agree in that crit is what you should build against tanks since lethality tickles them, but: item 3147 Don't forget that item exists too. I think it does what, 200% of your total lethality in true damage?

CancerBasedGodFeb 14, 20171 votes

Yes but they only get it once a fight usually, and at the absolute max it is 240 damage. The damage simply isn't enough to be that significant against a tank's HP pool.

Rock MDFeb 13, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gn2igRGO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-13T02:15:35.611+0000)

Even if a character has 80 armor pen instead of 40, that's still not enough to even penetrate a Frozen Heart. Lethality is still awful against tanks. The problem is that no one plays tanks because they're all obsessed with early game junglers.

To clarify this is assuming you have someone on your team with Cleaver, which is usually the case. In some cases, such as Pantheon, Miss Fortune, or Talon it's probably yourself. The 80 armor pen goes a lot farther against these partially shredded tanks than 40 armor pen.

BladeSteelFeb 13, 20173 votes

Right now you can't really play tank junglers because if you do your team will be so far behind noone will do damage.

The Yetii RiderFeb 13, 20175 votes

As a tank one-trick, I assure you: tank junglers are never out of meta.

6SfoolFeb 13, 20171 votes

Even if a character has 80 armor pen instead of 40, that's still not enough to even penetrate a Frozen Heart. Lethality is still awful against tanks.

Your point is? If lethality wasn't awful against tanks, then there would be no reason to ever pick a tank. Assassins are meant to be the ones stacking lethality, while most other ad champs pick up just a little lethality, if any (frankly I think adc's build too much of it). Assassins are meant to be hard countered by tanks, both in playstyle and stat-checking. It makes sense that lethality alone is not strong against armor stackers, since it capitalizes on low armor targets. Lethality does, however, stack extremely well with last whisper and cleaver. Both items bring champs' armor to lower levels, where lethality has a greater percentage amplification. Because of the way it applies after percentage pen, it's strong against tanks on condition that you actually have one tank-shredding item. Specifically for adc- If you're complaining that an adc who does not build LD or BORK or have an ally with BC can't shred tanks with lethality alone, then you have no idea what the meaning of counterbuilding is.

The Yetii RiderFeb 13, 20172 votes

My point was to argue against OP, who said "remember when Jhin only had 40 armor pen and couldn't hurt a tank to save his life? He now has roughly double that at level 18". And so I made my post saying "40 armor pen, 80 armor pen, he still won't hurt a tank to save his life".

SpecterVonBarenFeb 13, 20173 votes

They just removed 80% of the armor from that item, nulifying most of your purchase while still being able to deal huge damage to squishies. This is all BEFORE we consider that they're also going to have a Black Cleaver and/or a Last Whisper item and this is just ridiculous.

The Yetii RiderFeb 13, 20173 votes

Nullifying "most of your purchase" of ONE item. If they have four lethality items then I have four tank items. Gold is not exclusive to ADCs.

SwiftKitten88Feb 13, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gn2igRGO,comment-id=000000040000,timestamp=2017-02-13T13:08:16.345+0000)

Nullifying "most of your purchase" of ONE item. If they have four lethality items then I have four tank items. Gold is not exclusive to ADCs.

yeah thats great except if your not a tank... your screwed...

obviously if you build full armor and HP lethality wont be an issue.. but unless your a tank class that mean u do ZERO DAMAGE.

there is a reason why tank Akali and Yasuo and Ekko were removed from being able to tank... it wasn't balanced.

maybe if i am support Morgana i can afford to get a item 3742 .

but I'm not going to get a item 3143 as a champ like Lux Ziggs Orianna mid. or as Nidalee jungle

it's just not an viable option..... period...

i can build item 3157 but that's it...

i even sometimes get item 3025 to replace item 3100 on jungle Nidalee vs full ad teams, but that still hurts by damage a LOT

King of MongooseFeb 13, 20171 votes

they used 3 items to nullify a part of one item, not even counting the stuff besides armor it gives u?

cmon fam

SpecterVonBarenFeb 13, 20173 votes

Keep in mind that only Thornmail gives 100 armor, Frozen Heart gives 90. These items give armor without any HP which means if these are the first things a tank buys then they're still susceptible to burst damage. Most armor items only give 60 or 50 armor which makes it even easier to nullify most of it with just two armor pen items and the difference is that nullifying a tank's armor nullifies the point to having a tank but the person building that armor pen isn't giving up anything for it, they're still getting more damage out of it to everyone.

Tanks aren't just tanking one person, they have to take focus fire from the entire enemy team so if one, two, or even three of the enemy are ignoring a lot of their purchases with both flat and percentage armor pen then they die way faster. And all this isn't even taking into account a tank needing to build an MR item if the enemy has a source of magic damage.

My main issue is that armor pen is way too snowbally because if someone gets fed in another lane then they get all that armor pen faster than a tank can get tank items and thus kill them just as fast as anyone else come mid game and if the game, somehow, manages to get to late game then the percentage pen comes in. My issue is that only the champs with damage reduction or armor steroids are capable of dealing with all of this because they get more out of each point of defense they get than everyone else while all the other tanks just get shredded.

GigglesOFeb 13, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gn2igRGO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-13T02:15:35.611+0000)

Even if a character has 80 armor pen instead of 40, that's still not enough to even penetrate a Frozen Heart. Lethality is still awful against tanks. The problem is that no one plays tanks because they're all obsessed with early game junglers.

And tank itemization is crap, lane phase is crap, lategame is crap. There is pretty much no reason to play a tank tbh.... oh and if there is a tank, the enemy just builds item 3033 (or) item 3036 (or) item 3071

A Rioter even stated black cleaver is the most built ending item.

DarkwindFeb 13, 20173 votes

Missing a critical word.

Lethality alone is still awful against tanks

Since it stacks perfectly with % pen/shred, lethality is quite decent against tanks when combined with a cleaver (on anyone) or LW. What's not decent is not having multiplicative scaling of attack speed, crit, and ad- but this isn't a huge deal as long as you're not dealing with "super tanks" like maokai. Damage is, overall, still high enough to deal with normal tanks using lethality + %pen.

This is because lethality will ALWAYS reduce enemy effective health by its exact amount in %. What I mean is 80 lethality will reduce enemy effective physical health by 80% of their displayed health amount, as long as they have at least 80 armor when it's applied. So a 3k Hp tank with 300 armor, and thereby, 12k effective physical health pre-pen will have 2400 less effective health (80% of 3k) because of your 80 lethality. This is true even if you have BC or LW. Or both. Those could bring them down to ~5280 effective physical health. Whereas a multiplicative scaling build might have to go through 7680 physical health against the same target. So while the lethality build may deal less pre-mitigation damage against tanks, it actually gets fairly close post-mitigation, and is not nearly as bad as it seems against them. 5k effective health is low enough to take 60% of your health from just ONE champion's full damage. 2-3 champions can, therefore, burst even a tank reasonably quickly ( ~4s as a very rough guess) using a full lethality + lw-item build, and assuming one of them applies Cleaver fairly quickly.

The only time this doesn't hold true is vs some champion with damage reduction, large/spammable shields or bonus armor scaling (malphite, rammus, maokai, nautilus). In short, vs super tanks. Lethality + % pen is only ever 'bad' in terms of the opportunity cost of the multiplicative scaling. It's not actually inherently weak.

Myths about Lethality

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