Why does Zed have better poke and waveclear than 90% of mages

koshkyra·Jul 24, 2018·138 votes·20,038 views

Literally the two things that mages are supposed to do against assassins in-lane Zed does better than them in.

WQE can easily take 50-80% of your health in the laning phase (depending on how far in we are) with electrocute, and he has incredible waveclear with his resourceless QE oneshotting the wave, or at least getting all of the minions significantly low.

Most mages cant shove waves until they max an ability at level 9 (i said MOST mages) and some cant even do it then.

Most mages cant poke zed without making themselves extremely vulnerable to his WQE, which 99% of the time will lead to them dying because now they are extremely low and Zed can just go to the shadow.

What gives?

184 Comments

Automated RivenJul 24, 201832 votes

Umm. He doesn't. Name one standard mage that has worse poke then zed. Barring maybe Annie. (altho she all ins way safer)

And double points for one who can actually lose in poke and waveclear.

Lucian WaifuJul 24, 201810 votes

Lissandra and Malzahar have worse poke than Zed, but both have better waveclear.

Automated RivenJul 24, 201818 votes

Lissandras q through minions has a longer range then zed q on a shorter cooldown.

I will give you malzahar, but even you have to admit that he has literally had everything about him gutted so he have keep his passive and r.

Lucian WaifuJul 24, 201835 votes

Lissandra's Q, before shatter, has the same range as Zed's Shadows which makes her extremely vulnerable to his poke, even one mistake means 50% or more loss of HP because of electrocute. Also her poke is only in her Q which has a fairly high CD before level 5, starting off at 6 seconds. Also her all-ins are terrible without help or being able to poke the enemy down significantly if she isn't ahead. Also her poke is easy to dodge because it is highly telegraphed and must be used through minions to hit most champions in mid. I would know, I have 450k mastery on her and can no longer use her in mid in ranked because of damage creep and range of so many mids.

SooFr0styJul 24, 20184 votes

Zed q is 6 at all ranks.

Automated RivenJul 25, 20185 votes

I played alot of lissandra and I still pick her into zed as a counterpick. She out pokes him hard. And she is completely able to shit on him when his w is on cooldown.

EviantJul 25, 20182 votes

Besides, Lissandra isn't supposed to out trade Zed, but just keep him from roaming without being punished. He can't all in her at level 6, and she can keep him rooted long enough to force him back. Lissandra is a solid counter pick to Zed, as she does all the things he doesn't want her to do. (And more importantly, she can do it relatively safely)

Anin777Jul 25, 20183 votes

Zed shadow has high CD. Liss can chunk Zed to 50% pre-lvl 3. Post lvl 6, Zed can't engage without jgl. Good fucking luck killing her. Her all-ins are telegraphed and so is Zed's. Soooo? 450k mastery on her but how much mastery on Zed?

GorantharonJul 25, 20188 votes

According to the wiki Lissandra's Q has an EXTENDED! max of 825 and a base range of 725, while Zed's has 900.

In Zed's case that's without using a shadow to extend range.

She loses in range.

koshkyraJul 24, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gmtqgqxY,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-07-24T20:35:36.491+0000)

Umm. He doesn't. Name one standard mage that has worse poke then zed. Barring maybe Annie. (altho she all ins way safer)

And double points for one who can actually lose in poke and waveclear.

Lux ? The only thing she has for poke is her E and it has an actual mana cost, and is way slower than zed's combo.

Automated RivenJul 25, 20184 votes

It doesn't matter how fast the combo is. Zed will never be in range of her with his w up if she is mildly competent. And her e is almost impossible to miss.

LarrietJul 25, 20184 votes

I agree, but her E isn't as easy to hit since the missile speed/radius nerfs.

Rins Thigh SocksJul 24, 201831 votes

Because Zed isn't a champion until level 3.

Because Zed has the most counterplay options of any assassin.

Because Zed's damage is significantly reduced by minions and if you're freezing by your tower, which you should be doing as a mage against literally any assassin, you don't be taking 50-80% of your hp.

Because Zed's niche is splitpushing and laning dominance.

Because he's actually doing the same amount of damage to a wave you are. The only time that's not true is if he uses his W on the wave, which has almost a 20 second CD and if he's using it on the wave he's not using it to poke you for "50-80% of your hp". Don't believe me? Zed's Q, at rank 4, (before level 9, like you mentioned) deals 185 damage to the first and 60% to the rest. Liss Q deals 160, and is almost half the CD. Ziggs Q does 210. Lux E does 195, and primes the target for easy last hits with her passive. Ahri's Q does 180 at rank THREE.

Because most mages, using good wave manipulation strategies, can generally ignore him.

Oh, and because fuck it, Zed hasn't been strong in years. Hell, in high elo he still isn't that great. Mages have been pretty dominant in mid for, on and (rarely) off, a good 2 years.

Fízz v2Jul 24, 201824 votes

Because Zed has the most counterplay options of any assassin.

no lul where did this "healthiest assassin" thing even come from, I even remember a Rioter saying Zed has "game health problems" xd

SooFr0styJul 24, 20184 votes

He has healthiest damage pattern

Fízz v2Jul 24, 201817 votes

Maybe thats how it was 2 seasons ago, but now bs free damage from electrocute ignite and Duskblade exists kek

SalronJul 24, 20184 votes

But every other assassin also has access to those

Fízz v2Jul 24, 201812 votes

Only AD assassins get Duskblade tho, Id rather play vs Fizz or Kat than vs Zed tbh.

MogarlJul 25, 20182 votes

I'll take Zed over Fizz any day of the week.

Anin777Jul 25, 20186 votes

Your name is Fizz v2. Ofc you'd say that. lmfao

Fízz v2Jul 25, 20183 votes

Why? When Im playing a mage (u can look at my match history, thats all im doing mid lane right now) Id rather play vs Fizz than a Zed that is gonna oneshot me through Zhonyas xd

Anin777Jul 25, 20184 votes

Oneshot throught Zhonyas? What?! Wutt?! I play Fizz. Not a lot cos it gets boring to OS. After level 3, I take 50+ % of the enemy's hp in one combo and lose some mana. Do it twice and get a kill or force them out of lane. Post 6, I go bot, ult one, combo the other, double kill. And because mages don't rush Zhonyas vs Fizz, I go mid, kill the mage, snowball. Zed however, is gated heavily by energy. You don't hit 2 Qs or E, you are left with no mana. His Qs are easy to dodge as a ranged champ. He also has no hard cc or lockdown ability. I'd take Zed any day knowing I can pick 20 champs to counter him. Fizz on the other hand, nope.

Crescent DuskJul 24, 20189 votes

{quoted}

He has healthiest damage pattern

No, he doesn't. All the other assassins are married to melee range to do more than 50% a target's health. Zed does not.

If you're a Talon or Fizz and you go into a teamfight, there is no shadow to get back out off. You deal the damage or you die. Zed gets immunity frames and 2 fucking teleports on top of his way better AD scaling than Talon, Ekko, or Fizz.

Zed also deals way more damage to tanks thanks to the death mark mechanic. Try dueling tanks as Talon or Fizz and tell me that they have an easier time than Zed does.

Anin777Jul 25, 20182 votes

2 teleports? Wutt?! Huhhh. Foh

ThefrostyvikingJul 25, 20183 votes

R and W shadows.

EedatJul 24, 201814 votes

almost a 20 second CD

Its actually 22 seconds

OmgLolJul 24, 20185 votes

Yes but champions like viktor isnt a champion untill like 4 items. there are a few mages who are really strong le blanc. zoe , ahri. But zed still has a 51 percent win rate with a 14 percent play rate pretty broken then most mages are around a 48 percent win rate with a like 2 percent pick rate

Rins Thigh SocksJul 25, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Yes but champions like viktor isnt a champion untill like 4 items. there are a few mages who are really strong le blanc. zoe , ahri. But zed still has a 51 percent win rate with a 14 percent play rate pretty broken then most mages are around a 48 percent win rate with a like 2 percent pick rate

Vik has sucked for a while now and I wish Riot would buff him more.

That being said he has one of the strongest levels 1-3 in midlane. Also, he comes online at 3 items, which is the price to pay for how insane his late-game generally is.

OmgLolJul 25, 20182 votes

true his lvl 1,2,3 are pretty good. Yes being a viktor main kinda sucks cant really do much in lane, but like you said his late game is very good and fun.

getting to those 3 items is a very big challenge with they way the meta is and the champions which are being played in mid.

viktor just needs some cooldown reductions and mana cooldowns early plus hexcore to 1000 each buy

EedatJul 24, 201822 votes

His poke isnt that great. Super high CD, drastically reduced damage through minions, and pretty hard to land the double shuriken. There is a pretty apparent opportunity cost and a risk/reward for him poking. Same goes with his waveclear. Using W to waveclear or poke has a super high CD and burns his engage and escape as a melee in mid.

S0lShadowsJul 25, 20185 votes

People also seem to be forgetting that his W has a 22 second cooldown for the entire laning phase. You max W last and dont really get any meaningful CDR until 2-3 items in. If you struggle to lane against an assassin whos only engage and escape tool pre 6 has a 22 second cooldown, that aint the champs fault. That`s your fault.

Also, looking through you match history, you made this thread shortly after getting destroyed by a zed as lissandra. This is just another angery post someone made cause they lost a game. Carry on everyone.

NaymlissJul 25, 20183 votes

To be fair, if you're playing someone because they "counter" a champion, you probably don't know how you should be playing the early lane to punish assassins, so it is a LOT harder to win in those cases.

charge attackJul 25, 20185 votes

Also he’s a support main that got autofilled mid... yeah... but he only lost cause zeds broken

wildfox99Jul 24, 201813 votes

he needs 1 thing for being fair

W E Q doesn't proc electrocute anymore

electrocute says UNIQUE abilities,so why his Q stacks it 2 times? literally no other ability can do that,even the ones that can hit you multiple times

Ahri Q/W count as 1 hit Ekko Q count as 1 hit Talon W count as 1 hit and so on

CladerionJul 25, 20182 votes

I'm pretty sure if you w-q your 2nd q is counted as your w, because its your w that hits the enemy. So its technically a unique ability.

Colton147Jul 24, 20185 votes

Lux Ziggs item 3070

Lucian WaifuJul 24, 201822 votes

He said 90% of mages, so there will be some that have better waveclear.

UnboundHadesJul 24, 20187 votes

{quoted}

He said 90% of mages, so there will be some that have better waveclear.

How many mages lack waveclear?

koshkyraJul 24, 201825 votes

{quoted}

How many mages lack waveclear?

??? Who said mages lack waveclear? I said Zed does it better than them, which he clearly does.

UnboundHadesJul 24, 20188 votes

{quoted}

??? Who said mages lack waveclear? I said Zed does it better than them, which he clearly does.

Zed can't waveclear decently unless he uses W and if he does he can be harassed since he isn't able to do anything with w down while mages can stay a decent range away and waveclear

You are just trying to start circlejerk for some made up reason when it isn't even the main problem with zed

MetalGearTeemoJul 24, 201825 votes

so you mean if Zed waveclears he has to play like a mage for the duration of the cooldown? by choice, and then becomes a mobile assassin again afterward?

Oh GOD how awful that must be for the Zed Mains. To have to move like a mage for a whole set of willingly used cooldowns if they want to blow the wave up and roam. I mean, in that case a mage could maybe even follow them, if trying to rotate along with a zed as a mid lane mage wasn't a death sentence unless you have every blind spot on the river warded. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

I mean, I guess they could match his wave clearing, but they'll be OOM after 2-3 waves.

Lucian WaifuJul 24, 201815 votes

OP and I never said lacks waveclear, but have less than Zed. Vladimir Viktor Taliyah Swain Annie Veigar all have less waveclear than Zed.

Automated RivenJul 24, 20184 votes

Annie doesn't waveclear by choice. However hers isn't bad if you use w. Victor and tahliyah and Vlad all have far better waveclear then zed. And around level 5 with two points in w viegar beats him ...I have no idea about Swain cause I don't paly him.

EkyonKunJul 24, 20189 votes

Annie's W does jack shit to the wave early. It has 70 base damage and has a cone that can only really hit 3 minions or so at a time, on an 8 second cooldown. Her Q is good for last hitting, but that's it. And if you max W first, you're in for a world of regret.

After your W is maxed and you have Luden's, you can 1 shot the caster minions, but that's the extent of her 'wave clear'.

Say what you want about her, but Annie's wave clear is garbage compared to other mages/assassins.

DW DianaJul 25, 20184 votes

{quoted}

OP and I never said lacks waveclear, but have less than Zed. all have less waveclear than Zed.

You missed Malzahar . His waveclear (and mana sustain) relies on his voidlings. Any ability or AA 1 shots them so his waveclear is fucked (as is his mana sustain).

foristJul 24, 20183 votes

Well then, I guess its good that zed w has a 20 second cool-down and is maxed last. Honestly what even is this thread? Mages have less wave-clear and poke than zed? What a joke.

Rıots Bad ClientJul 24, 20184 votes

The issue is minions spawn every 30 seconds. So everytime his W is up everytime a new wave is in. So he can choose to just shove the wave quicker then most mages. and be safe enough for the next wave(Being safe distance and no resource), so he chooses When He wants to force a fight.

Not to mention that he can get his W Cooldown reduced by his E

Modl Ryden lJul 25, 20181 votes

W > E > Q combo takes up almost all his energy and puts his only method of all-inning on a 22 second cooldown.

VekknaJul 25, 20184 votes

Oh no! What will he do in the few seconds it takes to regen an energy bar? THE HORROR!!!

DuskDaUmbreonJul 25, 20183 votes

Implying that it takes that long to regen energy.

It's 10 a second. That means it's fully charged (assuming he hits 0 energy, which he never will) 2 seconds before his W with no CDR at all is back off cooldown. And he also regens...what, 30 energy if both the real and shadow Q/E hit a champion?

Also, oh no! He lost his ability to all-in by all-inning! What ever will he do? Oh, I know! Wait the 22 seconds for him to be able to all-in again!

Seriously. Just because his W - his all-in tool - is on cooldown after he uses WEQ - His all-in combo before 6 - doesn't count as a "weakness". That's called "you used your full combo and now you have to wait for cooldowns". Basically everyone is like that.