Put the gold income back to 4, right now it's a total waste and considering Frostqueen is garbage compared to Talisman, it's really not worth upgrading it in any possible case.
Remember when Coin was useless trash that no one ever bought except if you could instantly upgrade it to T2-T3 and you buffed it and now it is actually a viable choice?
Yeah, let's do that to Frostfang too?
Pika31016 votesMy thoughts exactly. Of course, Riot already knows it's trash. Even their analysts have said so multiple times during LCS. Problem is the balance team is both bad at their job and frankly doesn't care. All their changes are 100% biased anyways.
ZenBudS1 votesIt feels like the balance team does not play the game. You need special people that fit the role to even be qualified for that job. Someone objective, not your uncle or your friend or your math teacher from 3rd grade. Someone that can play the champ they are changing a couple hundred times and make a fair justified change to make the game better.
Pika3101 votesOn that note, it's worth mentioning Fearless admitted from the very beginning that he has never played Sona, rarely ever played against her and yet he was allowed to lead her gutting "rework"?
RIOT LOGIC.
ZenBudS3 votesshes not gutted, as a support unless u get hard countered you can be plenty effective. But yeah i agree that hiring your brother in law that does not play the game to lead reworks on champions we know and love is borderline criminal.
Pika3103 votesFearless stated that he took on the task because he claimed to have "thick skin" and would not be bothered by negative feedback. The last time he bothered posting on these forums something like 7 months ago, he said he is reluctant to do so because of the unanimously bad criticism that has been directed at him. The sheer hypocrisy of his words is disconcerting. Fact of the matter is, once it hit Live, he abandoned it completely and entirely. He then proceeded to create the exact same debacle in the jungle changes at the beginning of this season. Fearless has a proven track record of nothing, but failure and half-assed work.
Champion Skin1 votesWell I am no Sona expert though I think they could at least buff her E to give +2% ms per point spent on it.. instead of 1... Like seriously.... Sona E gets more power from the 3 points you put into R then the 4 points you put into it after the first....
leveling R gives E between 2-6% increase MS Leveling E gives E between 1-4% increase MS... like putting points into it is so pointless... like yes I know you aren't supposed to be leveling it... but you have to eventually....
Xonra5 votesIt feels like the balance team does not play the game. You need special people that fit the role to even be qualified for that job. Someone objective, not your uncle or your friend or your math teacher from 3rd grade. Someone that can play the champ they are changing a couple hundred times and make a fair justified change to make the game better.
Most people that have been on the balance team over the years have been people like:
It is no surprised that the balancing has been so awkward, because a lot of the people that move into it have no idea how balance in any game works, let alone this one specifically, or come from completely different departments, sometimes in completely different jobs.
The fact is, Riot says they want someone who IS a Rioter, not someone who will become one, but all that means is "someone we like or are already friends with", because that is where a lot of the outside hires legit come from. cough Ghostcrawlercough
Rinky Dinky12 votesFrost fang itself is fine.
Frost queen is just bad.
Really bad.
Drunk Rummate10 votesfrostfang is great actually. it increases the on-hit damage to 15 which is pretty underrated and it gives more mana regen. it's frost queen that's garbage.
you buy spellthief's line to win lane more than anything. i dont think its supposed to scale well.
Arcane Azmadi7 votesThe sad part is, we all know the reason Frost Queen's Claim has to be so shit: if it wasn't shit, AP midlaners would buy it and abuse the fuck out of it. We've danced this dance before.
FastAsHeck4 votesi usually just buy spellthiefs and sell it much later in the game. my main ap support is 
and she can use it quite effectively. it usually racks up 500-600 gold in total, combined with the stats and the burst increase you get which is nice on her (if you didnt know, when you proc the passive you also deal 10 or so extra damage) its a pretty good start. the 10 damage is useless mid-late game and selling it for a bit of gold and a slot is much better. i definately agree the blue line could get some love 
Pika3103 votesYou further ruin your point by bringing up Sona who's widely-known as the weakest champion in the game and blatantly unplayable. Frankly, I applaud your bravery of feeding playing on her in spite of the rumors that players are being reported for picking her or even just using a DJ icon.
BetaDude408 votesSona who's widely-known as the weakest champion in the game and blatantly unplayable.
No, that award would go to 
. In her current state, I'm surprised people still play her.
Also, congratulations for being an ass just because they like a particular champion. And, honestly, anyone who reports someone solely off of their pick does not deserve to play this game.
Pika3103 votesYou speak as though I don't like Sona myself. If you hadn't bothered jumping to conclusions and unjustifiably resorting to crude insults, I could have told you I joined LoL to play Sona and mained her for the entirety of season 3. As much as I wish Sona were a playable champion, I can't deny facts. Patch 4.13 gutted her beyond recognition and this isn't the first instance in time when players are being reported for picking a champion. Evelynn after she was gutted(the first and previous times), Bard for two patches after his released, Udyr and et cetera. Nothing I've said is biased or untrue, you're just too close-minded to realize it.
DomainSpecific8 votesMaybe Sona isn't as good as Alistar or Thresh, but she is still extremely viable.
She also has 52.7% WR with a 4.95% play rate. She could use some buffs, but regardless, she is fine.
shalexade4 votesSona: 52.7% Thresh: 49.4% Alistar: 47.5%
52 < 49? 52 < 47?
Lorinne3 votesAli and Thresh also get picked 10.3% and 25.91% of the time, respectively. So it's understandable that with that much larger of a pool, the winrates would be slightly lower than a support that is picked half as much (in the case of Ali) or less and is probably only played by people who main her. So yes, Ali and Thresh are better than Sona; the comparable winrates are just skewed by uneven sample sizes.
shalexade1 votesWhich is why it's nice that the stats are broken up into "games played"- with the 1-5 games played crew running at a 50% win rate.
Iron IV dude1 votesHave 93% winrate with sona :/
Partholonian1 votesNo, that award would go to
What, even over 
? I think you're exaggerating.
is quite risky, but can be effective.
And I'm sure Riot knows exactly how much reliance to place on any such report, if they exist at all.
NazZomLord6 votesYou further ruin your point by bringing up Sona who's widely-known as the weakest champion in the game and blatantly unplayable. Frankly, I applaud your bravery of
feedingplaying on her in spite of the rumors that players are being reported for picking her or even just using a DJ icon.
You sir need a bit of education and to learn how to play Sona.
Iron IV dude1 voteshttp://fs1.directupload.net/images/150701/ujyxwhpw.jpg
She is sooo bad :/
Champion Skin2 votesDoesn't really say much though as that's just 15 games and it doesn't say anything about the skill of the players Even the worst champions in the game would likely have a very high win rate if the players using them were more skilled then their opponents and they are very familiar/good on that champion
Like if a challenger or master tier player started a smurf and only played Sona he/she would likely have an absurd win rate And it would likely be the same with pretty much any champion
Iron IV dude1 votesIts my main account, and i'm not a smurf, nor am i climbing (Gold 1-3 since 3 months) In comparison, i play most champs around 30-50 times before changing (gettin bored to fast sadly) On all other champs, that I can play well, I have a winrate of 60-70%, so sona is something like my little dirty secret weapon :) But for your defence, I main toplane, so I only go support, if i am quite sure that it'll works and we will win if i do so. (ADC has confidence, toplane seems skilled enough to replace me, no one actually can support well)
Champion Skin1 votesWell Sona is rather good in SoloQ... Why? Because she can carry a hopeless ADC through the lane by herself by bringing her own damage and healing the ADC (though of course she isn't great against all in unless she is able to poke first)
And her heal takes quite a bit of mana
Iron IV dude1 votesYou sure you wanted to reply on my post? As I just proved what you wrote here :D
shalexade2 votesNEWSFLASH: One of the winningest supports is the weakest champ and blatantly unplayable.
Who'da thunk, winning was a bad thing.
Champion Skin2 votesSo we should buff Thresh then? His win rate is pretty bad after all
shalexade1 votesAt the time of this comment, Thresh's winrate was 49.4%.
That's not "pretty bad"
chipndip12 votesMaybe people don't know how to use Sona in this meta, but I find her more than worth the pick.
Xonra2 votesMaybe people don't know how to use Sona in this meta, but I find her more than worth the pick.
She isn't bad, but I will agree she isn't as good in 5v5 teams.
In solo queue though? Pick her. Why not? Most of us will never see the LCS let alone Challenger 5v5s, so...play what you enjoy if it can work...which Sona can.
Sure this meta seems to favor the likes of Alistar, or Nautilus, but not a thing wrong with Sona.
chipndip11 votesThat doesn't mean squishy supports like Morgana, Sona, and Nami can't work. Not every position HAS to be a tank. It's a team comp thing. She does better when she can follow-up on stuns and knock ups like Malphite and Amumu, from my experience. You can slap on a tank anywhere, but that doesn't mean Sona doesn't work.
Champion Skin1 votesActually Morgana works well with all these tanks running around Since tanks often rely on and bring a lot of CC Which obviously Morgana black shield is good against
Champion Skin1 votesIf you are just concerned about the gold is probably the best
As while gives more gold.... it cost 500 gold and for you to gain 500 extra gold from it you need to proc the passive 100 times which will take 1000 seconds or 16.6 minutes (and that is if you never sit at 3 stacks.. for each second you sit at 3 stacks it will take one second longer to pay for itself)
Obviously you aren't able to proc frostfang all the time so it will pretty much always take at least 20-25 min for it to pay for itself and then it would usually be better to just go directly to other better items instead of delaying them to get frostfang first
SociopathFriend3 votesAs someone who frequents Nami support a lot, I enjoy the crap out of .
In its early stages it rewards you for poking the enemy, combined with masteries you can easily earn 10 gold every time you trade with an enemy champion.
And then when it has reached its final form it's an extremely potent slow that makes landing the rest of your kit so easy it feels like cheating. This method does require you to build a bit tankier than some people like, but so long as you hit that 200 AP mark you've got enough AP; and to boot, the enemy will absolutely not be dodging your bubble or ult if you land the FQC active.
SoMNia3 votesThe gold generation is fine. The problem is that it doesn't build into anything useful. If they replaced the Frost Queen active with something useful (maybe a targeted cleanse, or a tenacity aura?), it would be worth it.
Partholonian1 votesIt would be useful if you could hit it, but as a short ranged, slow skillshot with a small area, it has a really hard time comparing to talisman's large area buff or Face's targeted buff.
iainB852 votesYep. You buy Spell Thief and sell it if the game goes so long you need that slot. I don't see any advantages to upgrading it over starting other items personally.
Zoroastrian2 votesAgreed. Frostfang needs more gold/10. Or just something. but is still a very good support item. not much needs to be changed except that it is very hard to earn gold with it mid-late game if you're playing someone like Janna that needs to stay in the back most of the time.
Partholonian1 votesJanna shouldn't be buying it anyway, she has bad poke and needs to stay in the back. She should stick with coin.
I think they should improve the active -- range, aoe, missile speed -- it just seems really awkward to actually land on anyone, and makes it not at all attractive to pursue upgrading (to the point that many people here are saying they don't upgrade it and just sell it, possibly buying talisman in its place).
Zoroastrian1 votesIt is used for poke in the laning phase with your auto attacks. And the 50 AP is +5 attack dmg and like 83 more hp for your shield. Ap is very very useful on Janna and the 40% slow is great because Janna is so fast that she can walk up and never miss it then combo them and they'll die from being cc'd so long. Talisman is much more gold efficient now. Except that it won't win you half of the lanes you play. You only buy Talisman for sustain lanes or against early gank junglers. Everything else you get Frostqueens to win the lane and or to stack more ap depending on match ups..
Ipols1 votesthe T2 of the item is good actually, if you rush it and buy a green ward instead of rushing the sighstone, it will give you back 1.2 k gold by the time you need to sell it for slot efficency (wich is 40 minutes into the game)
Pika3104 votesYou're going to proc it 240 times in less than 40 minutes? That's not even mathematically possible.
For argument's sake, let's assume you got it at 10 minutes. At 3 charges per half-minute for 30 minutes, the most you could possibly earn in an impossibly ideal scenario is 900 gold from 210 procs. This is all assuming that you spend ever single half-minute of the game in perpetual combat with enemy champs/structures of at least 3 damage trades. Meanwhile never killing a single minion to ensure the passive doesn't deactivate. Even if you could miraculously accomplish half of that, it still wouldn't justify the initial investment.
It's a matter-of-fact, Frostfang is an unbuyable item unless Riot raises its gold/10 back up to 4.
Ipols3 votesyou are forgetting the gold/second it gives you.
Also it gives you mana and a bit of ap.
edit: we all know it's sub-par with the other items but It's not a complete waste of money. stats+gold/sec+gold per proc gives it a >100% gold efficency I usually take it on morgana since she's good at using that item and I sell it when I need to complete the NLR for the zhonya, otherwise it would be impossible for a support to make 1.6 k gold in one go
Pika3105 votesI didn't forget anything. Frostfang does not give more gold/10 than Spellthief's, there's no reason for me to waste my time adding +0 or multiplying by 1.
The +5 AP is beyond negligible, especially when considering how abysmally low support scalings have become. As for the mana regen, 2 charms will give you twice as much for less cost and are necessary for building into Idol or Chalice.
Frostfang is a useless waste of gold, no amount of narrow-mindedness can change that mathematical fact.
VDc0zCqe0w2 votes{quoted} edit: we all know it's sub-par with the other items but It's not a complete waste of money.
subpar with the other items = bad
why would i pick an AP support like Zyra or Sona if the spellthief line is bad while the relic/coin is good?
i'd just go with Thresh-Janna that can start with their core item without gimping themselves (actually Janna can go spellthief-talisman because...well because she's Janna)
Tulare2 votesBecause 1. the champion is not just the sum of their items and 2. champion selection isn't done in a vacuum. Even if Janna + Coin looks better on paper than Morgana + Spellthief, if you want a lot of harass, Morgana will be the better choice.
Maybe that means that the matchups where you need Janna are easier than the matchups where you need Morgana. It shouldn't ever be the difference between Morgana being the right/wrong pick for a particular matchup, though.
Could Spellthief use a buff? Sure. But it's FAR from causing the champs who prefer it to be trash.
BakedLotion1 votesYou're going to proc it 240 times in less than 40 minutes? That's not even mathematically possible.
For argument's sake, let's assume you got it at 10 minutes. At 3 charges per half-minute for 30 minutes, the most you could possibly earn in an impossibly ideal scenario is 900 gold from 210 procs. This is all assuming that you spend ever single half-minute of the game in perpetual combat with enemy champs/structures of at least 3 damage trades. Meanwhile never killing a single minion to ensure the passive doesn't deactivate. Even if you could miraculously accomplish half of that, it still wouldn't justify the initial investment.
It's a matter-of-fact, Frostfang is an unbuyable item unless Riot raises its gold/10 back up to 4.
I always get atleast 1.2k gold around 30 min (with the gp10) I dont see how its bad. It gives u mana regen, small amount of ap, and extra dmg for early game. The frost queen item is terrible though
Champion Skin1 votesThe GP10 is the same so you don't get any extra gold from that
2 GP10 + 5 gold per proc
2 GP10 + 10 gold per proc (+5 gold per proc this is what you get for upgrading it and spending 500 gold)
Which means that the only extra gold you get from upgrading it is 5 extra gold per proc and the item cost 500 gold and that obviously means that you need 100 procs to make back your gold
And 100 procs takes at leasy 1000 seconds (10 second per charge) or 16.6 minutes
however it is impossible to use charges all the time so it will take longer and will likely take between 20-30 min after you bought for it to pay for itself
