"AP is weak"

Eedat·Apr 8, 2017·30 votes·2,474 views

Meanwhile 19 out of the top 20 winrate midlaners are AP

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Middle&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

still successful meta top laners and massive lane bullies

back to being top tier junglers

Pretty much any meta support is either straight up an AP mage or an AP enchanter

And bot lane still holding on to a 52% winrate

Yeah "so weak". must be so broken to explain why only a single AD midlaner has a positive win rate. Scumbag AD champs though amirite?

128 Comments

AhristocatsApr 8, 201718 votes

fiddle is meta?

gragas i can understand, but fiddle?

EedatApr 8, 20175 votes

Maybe not meta but he's back to 52% win rate after the buffs. Meanwhile Graves and LeeSin are "SO BROKEN NO COUNTERPLAY GG" with their 49% win rates

AhristocatsApr 8, 201710 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/6457fbf7459b0a44b84ef520969985e3.png

that's not meta that's being viable

i didn't say fiddle is trash, in fact i didn't play him since a long time and he got buffed. but i never cross a fiddle in my games, saying that he's meta is very inaccurate

i also didn't understand why graves was nerfed

-gH

DessemApr 8, 20172 votes

If it's any consolation, Fiddle can be SO BROKEN NO COUNTERPLAY GG too, if you want.

I mean, that fear, amirite? Zero counterplay to it. Nerf pls. Kappa

dunder killApr 8, 201710 votes

Don't know why you bothered with the massive Mage bias on the board. You already know whats coming. They're still going to tell you AD is OMG SO MUCH STRONGER!!! HEXDRINKER IS DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN!!!!!

FairyfleurApr 8, 20179 votes

Hexdrinker might not be broken, but it isn't very fair. EDIT: It doesn't feel very fair.

SexualsaurusApr 8, 201717 votes

I'm pretty sure every Zed main feels the same about item 3157

EedatApr 8, 20177 votes

The best is when they take summoner 3 and rush a item 3157 . You can never touch them for the rest of the game unless they royally fuck up

PennsApr 8, 20176 votes

Huh... Interesting because 1300 gold Hexdrinker does the same thing to many mid laners xd

EedatApr 8, 20173 votes

Not even remotely close. Try again.

PennsApr 8, 20174 votes

For the same price you pretty much get a Maw, which is more than close. AD champs can take Exhaust too like Yasuo does all the time.

CatastropApr 8, 201712 votes

Even AP champions themselves feel the same about Zhonya's, it's just a cancer item.

FairyfleurApr 8, 20172 votes

I bet you're right about them feeling bad about losing out on their combo due to Zhonya's, but a lot of Zhonya's power budget is loaded into the active. Also, Maw activates automatically when you reach low health, and takes no work to properly pull off. That combined with Maw being a lot more universal of an item, I feel it's more of an issue.

SexualsaurusApr 8, 20172 votes

I dunno about maw being an issue, its a survival item that's received numerous nerfs and even then it doesn't allow the user to go a state of invulnerability anytime they want. Like you said you have no control over it, sometimes in lane or late game you get poked down and it procs automatically but mages have a fun item that gives a shield anytime they desire that blocks all sources of damage rather than just Magic item 3040 .

Zhonya even allows champs like Kennen , Fiddlesticks and Rumble to make really good engages.

People wanna nerf maw/hexdrinker because of ad midlaners but forget that toplane champs like MonkeyKing Renekton Riven JarvanIV need it too in order to survive in lane.

YoungSirJ0eyApr 9, 20171 votes

Anytime they desire

Every 120 seconds. Which they have to stack first, meaning there's no way to rush it, meaning it's unlikely to be available before 20 minutes. Which burns through massive amounts of mana on an item that is taken by characters who really need mana. Sure.

Seraph's is a shit item built by 2 champions, maybe 3 occasionally. Bringing it up doesn't help your point.

Ben SwoIoApr 8, 20174 votes

I always found it funny when mage players cried about item 3155 being broken or whatever. Yet they are perfectly find with item 3157 , a one click INVULNERABILITY item. As a Zed player, it's not easy for me to play it right and be able still secure a kill when this is present (unless I'm crazy ahead.) Especially when the champ is someone like Fizz or Ekko , who I now have to deal with their power dodging abilities on top of the item 3157 .

PennsApr 8, 20178 votes

Probably because Hexdrinker is a no skill passive that is cheap af, basically doubles your HP against magic damage and doesnt stun yourself like Zhonyas does.

Sure it fucks Zed over but he is like the only AD champ where its worth buying Zhonyas. Hex just takes 950 gold on your first back and you are immune to any all in.

ChønklordApr 8, 20173 votes

It's very easy to burst through the maw/hex shield though. Just do enough damage, or pop it and then do damage. Zhonyas literally makes you unkillable for a few seconds. Granted, I hate zhonyas and I play mages myself; but I hate it because 90% of the time it's useless if popped near a teamfight and you're getting steamrolled.

PennsApr 8, 20172 votes

Not really when it gives you MR so you already take around 30-40% less damage than you would, then it also gives a 150-200 shield early that gets even better because of the MR it already gives.
Mid laners dont even really buy Zhonyas anymore even tho there are AD champs top, jungle and bot in most games and sometimes one mid because the stats are just bad. The only ones that still buy it are champs that need or have good synergy with the active like TF, Fizz or Rumble.

Ben SwoIoApr 9, 20171 votes

Then maybe they should build it?

SexualsaurusApr 8, 20172 votes

No skill passive and cheap af

item 3802 item 3116

A lot of AD champs get fucked over by zhonya

JarvanIV MonkeyKing Nocturne LeeSin Warwick Sion Rengar Khazix

Because you waste your entire engage only to have it cancelled by one item. Then your stuck there in the middle of the enemy team with no cool downs and it's not like you can Zhoyna to wait for your cool downs to catch up.

PennsApr 8, 20172 votes

True but Im talking about mid lane and rushing Zhonyas vs rushing Hexdrinker/Maw.

YoungSirJ0eyApr 9, 20171 votes

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Vi players who engage with their ult are either awful at Vi, or too high elo to be playing Vi. Your Q is perfectly serviceable and gives you more damage.

Ben SwoIoApr 9, 20171 votes

Yes, and Zhonya's is extremely skilled. Press a button and you're invulnerable. Whoa. Without defensive items, mages would just run around nuking shit.

yoshi2790Apr 8, 20174 votes

Zed 's ultimate has 0 counterplay. Why be angry about a 0 counterplay item when the reason people buy it is the 0 counterplay ultimate.

Big LincolnApr 8, 20172 votes

wrong

Ben SwoIoApr 9, 20171 votes

Yeah it's not like I don't get exhausted, Nasus doesn't wither, Fizz doesn't troll poll, Ahri doesn't R away, Ekko doesn't click R for a second chance, Talon doesn't ult when I ult causing me to deal less damage, Tryndamere doesn't ult, Kindred ult again, Lulu ult again, Janna ult again, Aatrox passive. I'm pretty sure you get the point. PLUS every mage who will build item 3157 just clicks a button and there goes Zed's ult, poofed away. So yeah I'm pretty sure you're wrong about not having counter play. It's not like I click R and it's an instant death. There are a lot of factors I have to think about before going in or I risk wasting it or getting cc'd / nuked by a mage. People just like to cry about Zed instead of learning how to play against him. What, you want him to be a wet noodle so you mages could just nuke away without much thought? It's not that hard. I get zoned a lot already as it is. It's no walk in the park.

YoungSirJ0eyApr 9, 20171 votes

So what's that, 1 summoner spell and 10 champions out of 130? Not making a convincing argument there.

Ben SwoIoApr 10, 20171 votes

Not sure how you figure that. Re read what he wrote and use some reading comprehension. He said, "Zed's ultimate has zero counterplay." Uh huh. You just counted one summoner spell and 10 champs that have different ways of countering it. That's not counting all of em either. Either way, the point is there IS counter play. You kids just like to cry instead of figuring out how to play match ups.

ForgiveColourApr 8, 20173 votes

Yeah because its fair that mages harass you and one shot a wave after 900 gold

FairyfleurApr 8, 20174 votes

I'm not saying that part of mages is fair, but hexdrinker/maw take no work to activate, and essentially reverse a mistake or bad positioning on the user's part.

The Sword SaintApr 8, 20172 votes

You also have no choice about when to activate it, which is pain when you take magic damage while kinda low but without being in any danger of dying as a champion who can regen it up fast but the stupid maw procs anyway and wastes the cooldown because some ad asshole had deathfire touch when he poked you or something similar.

FairyfleurApr 8, 20173 votes

Well, it does have only a 90 second cooldown.

Votable JesterApr 8, 20171 votes

In my experience most mages need at least a full Morello to "one-shot" the wave with 2 spells.

ForgiveColourApr 8, 20171 votes

Are you sure youre playing properly

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Command Ethereal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gkhm9EE0,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-04-08T00:10:04.018+0000)

Hexdrinker might not be broken, but it isn't very fair.

its literally just a glorified 200HP that only blocks magic damage. Legit just get enough damage and you can burst right through it. the only thing it does is force you to take into it into account.

DessemApr 8, 20172 votes

The issue is that after first back, you can't "legit get enough damage" to burst right through it.

It'll take quite some AP for most mages to add an additional 200 damage to their rotation, by which point the AD should have the damage to one-shot the mage on an all-in.

CatastropApr 8, 20178 votes

Well that happens when most of the midlaners are ap to begin with, how you think you're making a good point here is beyond me.

EedatApr 8, 20174 votes

Because anytime AD champions go Mid the community demands they be removed. Lucian Mid? "OMG ADC META NERFERINO RITO". Its funny how the community insists "Riot shouldn't enforce a meta" but the second Corki or another ADC is viable mid or any other role that isn't bot lane people fucking lose their shit and demand they be gutted.

How you think you're making a good point is beyond me

ForgiveColourApr 8, 20177 votes

Its hilarious how the mid meta was still mages in the lcs during the patch where lethality was busted

FairyfleurApr 8, 20179 votes

It's probably that way because of how reliable mages are compared to lethality assassins. LCS players simply can't take the risk of playing a feast or famine assassin unless the mentioned assassin is obsurdly broken.

PennsApr 8, 20175 votes

Fiora Talon Darius Kled Riven are all stronger top laners than the ones you listed, AD Shaco Graves LeeSin Jax Warwick are better junglers (minus Ivern but he is a support lol), only role where ap champs are played is mid and even there Talon and Zed are top tier.

ChønklordApr 8, 20173 votes

Ivern is the #1 jungler above gold, bud.

PennsApr 8, 20173 votes

Ivern isnt an ap champ lol

ChønklordApr 8, 20172 votes

..... Oh boy.

I'm just gonna... Leave this here for you....yea....

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ivern/Abilities

PennsApr 8, 20174 votes

He is strong because of his shields, slows, cc and shit, not because of his AP damage. Wouldnt consider him an ap champ, just like Janna and Lulu.

ChønklordApr 8, 20171 votes

....... I don't think we're playing the same game.

Janna and lulu all scale from ap.

I think what you meant to say is that they are utility ap champs and not burst/control/tank mages -- although if you've never seen full ap lulu, it's scary as fuck.

But yes all of them utilize and scale from AP. E.g. Ivern's shield is bigger the more ap you have. It has an 80% ap ratio.

Also, he's not a support he's a utility jungler. Literally his kit is designed around jungle camps.

PennsApr 8, 20174 votes

Yeah but they arent really "AP champs", they are just... ap "supports" or utility champs if you want. They build no AP items other than maybe stuff like Grail or Censer and dont rely on doing damage.

aqours fanboyApr 8, 20175 votes

AD is far better and a item 3155 or item 3211 makes APs in lane irrelevant.

Dark NephthysApr 8, 20174 votes

Out of the 39 Champions listed in there, there is only 5 champions who are actually AD, compared to the 34 AP champions. So having 19 out of the top 20 being AP is actually expected. Not to mention that out of those 5 AD champions, 2 of them are way better top lane...Actually looking at the list, 4 out of those 5 champions have a higher win rate for Top lane over their Mid lane.

As for ADCs being nerfed for going Mid lane, that was because they were "probably" crowding out and out-beating the AP champions in they're own lane, a lane that most of them can only go. It's the same reason why Lulu has seen so many nerfs apparently when she strolls into Top/Mid lane. Yes we do now have Ziggs going bot now, but that isn't destroying and forcing any ADCs out of their lane, and in fact I rarely ever see it anymore anyways, which is why that wasn't nerfed.

As for the conversation of item 3157 vs item 3156 , I wouldn't normally mind how strong Maw was if Zhonyas just felt better as a rush item or if Seeker's was a good item to rush as well. Most AD champions who go mid to fight Mages are usually Manaless champions or generally have low mana costs. Hexdrinker alone gives you everything you would want (besides for Lethality I guess), and even if you really don't feel like you need Maw....getting a Hexdrinker and then going into a Lethality item is something that you have options to do, and you don't really trade off much if anything to do that.

Mages on the other hand, most mages have mana cost and some even have very high mana cost...some even to the point that you literally have to build double mana items item 3027 item 3040 which means you can't even think about getting Zhonyas until way later on...But even for the champions that don't need that double mana scaling items, they generally would need some form of mana which usually is item 3165 . If they get Zhonya's then they'll have the defense to maybe live from some AD champions but they wouldn't have the mana to keep up with their wave clear or poke AND then have the mana to attempt a fight if they get jumped on. Not to mention the stats for Zhonyas is just terrible, and honestly I hate to even think about rushing it as a first item, even if I was up against an AD Assassin, unless I was playing a champion that really didn't need to much and didn't have mana problems like Mid Kennen then I could see it.

If they made Seeker's a bit better as an item, maybe give it a mini-zhonyas or maybe something else or just increase the stats it gives then maybe I could see it being a good option to rush.