Graves is basically a melee carries wet dream

Akali is SO HOT·Sep 30, 2016·125 votes·5,662 views

-Does more damage the closer he gets to enemies -Massive amounts of resists by just dashing around in teamfights. -Really hard to kite -Becomes a bruiser by building glass cannon -Becomes the best drain tank in the game because he has warlords and death's dance -Overpowered laning phase -Good sustained damage with massive burst. -Safest jungle clear in the game

You can say one of his weaknesses is that he's practically melee , but that doesn't matter when he has a better kit than every melee carry in the game. Yi is basically the only melee carry that's harder to kite than Graves but he has to stay still for his defensive ability which can be interrupted and is squishy as hell. Graves can just face tank your entire team without having to worry about anything. He needs to be unreworked like Kog Maw or just be flat out gutted. Nothing is healthy about his kit at all.

138 Comments

Akali is SO HOTSep 30, 201642 votes

Why is my thread being hijacked by yordles

Jet SettSep 30, 201616 votes

If Graves is face-tanking your whole team you need to rethink the way you go about teamfighting. He's balanced around having great damage and a difficulty to kill due to his poor range and having no hard cc. You actual have an adc at a decent level then they can take care of Graves with some peel from the team, you can literally body block Graves' auto attacks.

TwinkieProSep 30, 20161 votes

Not really the point of the thread. Still one of the best melee carries.

Jet SettSep 30, 201611 votes

I'm just saying, frontline tanks prevent Graves from auto-attacking anything important, or with enough pressure, prevents his autos entirely. And let me tell you something that everyone seems to not know; His dash needs autos to cooldown fast enough to stack the resistances otherwise they wear off before it comes back up.

If you see him dashing around the minion wave, it probably isn't good to fight him there. If you see him dashing around your team in a fight, you should have focused the carry like always because even though he's a carry from the jungle, he's still a carry. People would focus a Jax or Xin Zhao if they came into a fight the way Graves does, and they're almost always tankier than him with either more health, or more resistances, or both, so let's not pretend he's an infallible tank unless we're letting him stack (emphasis on letting because you'd have to be losing a fight or focusing the wrong people for his passive to be stacked, or letting him do it in the minion wave)

Celestial Lion12Sep 30, 20167 votes

HOLY SHIT ACTUAL LOGIC AND REASONING WITH A WAY TO GIVE REAL COUNTERPLAY WHAT THE HELL IS THIS

Jet SettSep 30, 20163 votes

I like Graves, and I won't lie and say he isn't strong because otherwise he wouldn't get picked in the Worlds series like he was yesterday. And in mentioning that, one of the teams picked Graves on a team with very little front line engage, it was mostly single target cc that posed a risk to the user. This didn't make the Graves useless, but it dramatically reduced his capabilities because there wasn't enough engage to cover him while he did damage, making it easy to focus him and kill the rest of his team because everyone else either didn't do damage, or had to get dangerously close to do it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 30, 201612 votes

[deleted]

Akali is SO HOTSep 30, 201626 votes

wat

Best Kog NASep 30, 201657 votes

http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Chris-Hansen-Take-A-Seat-Meme.jpg

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 30, 201623 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Kog NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gkd0AuAY,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-09-30T01:11:08.214+0000)

http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Chris-Hansen-Take-A-Seat-Meme.jpg

we are talking yordles... not 5 yr olds there is a difference

MelledoneusSep 30, 201621 votes

I think the concept still applies, since yordles are built like children...

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 30, 201610 votes

{quoted}

I think the concept still applies, since yordles are built like children...

nope they are yordles and im assuming since they go to war and battle they are adults not children ... children dont go to war they have to be 18 , barely legal

Best Kog NASep 30, 201627 votes

Still creepy

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 30, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Kog NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gkd0AuAY,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-30T01:42:15.844+0000)

Still creepy

lol creepy for thinking a thing that isnt real is sexy...

people take shit way to seriously sometimes

MrWasjigSep 30, 20166 votes

Got that right, what a cluster fuck.... [zombie-brand-facepalm]

I don't even know what you originally said but I can take a damn good guess based on how everyone else in this thread has collectively lost their shit over it xD

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 30, 20165 votes

basically i said that i find yordles attractive and they give me dreams

something similar to the title of the OP

any every one went ape shit over it saying that its creepy

and people are associating the height of a yordle makes them childlike.

are ya caught up now?

MrWasjigSep 30, 20162 votes

I was caught up anyway. The "To catch a predator" reaction picture gave it away. Though I really don't see how it's creepy :P And the association with children from their height is as absurd as associating someone with dwarfism to a child. Actually it's so absurd it deserves another Zombie Brand facepalm [zombie-brand-facepalm]

crippler38Sep 30, 20165 votes

he's basically saying he likes mature but short creatures.

LadyRenlySep 30, 20164 votes

[deleted]

MelledoneusSep 30, 201610 votes

Midgets are not children...

The Blue RajahSep 30, 20169 votes

I think that was his point. Since neither are yordles

Toru ItaiSep 30, 20163 votes

i can agree with parts of both side of this argument, so i'm not chosing a side but.. yordle look much more like shildren than they look like midgets. Midgets look very much like adults when they are Adults. Yordles look like children when they're 7000 years old.

ViiLLAiNSep 30, 201610 votes

they need to revert him back to being a adc so Lucian and other ADs can be kept back in line again

Riot needs to admit they failed with this updated graves and hes to hard to balance

Akali is SO HOTSep 30, 20166 votes

I'd rather have him be part of the holy trinity of whatever ADCs are powerful than be a cancer jungler/top laner

xReadyPlayerOnexSep 30, 20169 votes

I agree with everything you've said.

SnowplosionSep 30, 20168 votes

He only becomes a drain tank if he has warlord's and death's dance. Not everybody goes for that build. Just going to put that one out.

Also this guy has had like five Graves post in the past week. Graves is probably this guys least favorite champion to play against, making him biased about Graves power levels.

Toru ItaiSep 30, 20163 votes

eaven on non-Graves related posts this guy seems really biased.

CppLSep 30, 20168 votes

Do not let CertainlyT create or rework any champs ,ever again!!! seriously ,all his champ are broken or have overloaded kits wich cant be balanced.

PermabannedGarenSep 30, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gkd0AuAY,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-30T00:48:20.475+0000)

-Does more damage the closer he gets to enemies -Massive amounts of resists by just dashing around in teamfights. -Really hard to kite -Becomes a bruiser by building glass cannon -Becomes the best drain tank in the game because he has warlords and death's dance -Overpowered laning phase -Good sustained damage with massive burst. -Safest jungle clear in the game

You can say one of his weaknesses is that he's practically melee , but that doesn't matter when he has a better kit than every melee carry in the game. Yi is basically the only melee carry that's harder to kite than Graves but he has to stay still for his defensive ability which can be interrupted and is squishy as hell. Graves can just face tank your entire team without having to worry about anything. He needs to be unreworked like Kog Maw or just be flat out gutted. Nothing is healthy about his kit at all.

I guess the biggest weakness he has compared to them is that any of the actual melee carries dunk on him in a 1v1 with very little effort late game, where Graves actually falls off. By comparison, every melee carry except for Tryndamere (who falls off by virtue of being unable to team fight in any real capacity late game, he's still an extremely powerful duelist late game) and to an extent Riven have quite strong late games when they aren't just dog shit in general (so like Yi is now).

Also, why even mention his laning phase? It's strong, but not any more than someone like Darius' is into many of the same match-ups, and top lane Graves is not an issue in high elo. Only jungle Graves is.

MelledoneusSep 30, 20165 votes

Darius was made to fuck anything melee over and Graves can still beat him in lane.

PermabannedGarenSep 30, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Darius was made to fuck anything melee over and Graves can still beat him in lane.

http://champion.gg/matchup/Graves/Darius/Top

Yet Graves doesn't seem to do that hot against him.

Also, who gives a fuck? God forbid there be melee champions (which I guess we're counting Graves as) that can beat Darius in lane lmao.

MelledoneusSep 30, 20169 votes

You know, as much as I hate Darius, I prefer if there's one person who can shut down any melee in lane. It's great to see annoying picks like Fiora and Irelia get shut down because this big, bad, brute of a lane bully can destroy them no matter how strong they are in other matchups. I think Darius is a champion who is obnoxious by design, but necessary.

NuparuSep 30, 20161 votes

Fiora and Riven both can fight Darius in lane, i'm pretty sure.

Hello I am BirdSep 30, 20166 votes

Fiora vs Darius is a pure match of skill, but Fiora can definitely beat him.

MiraweaveSep 30, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hello I am Bird,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gkd0AuAY,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-30T03:43:04.434+0000)

Fiora vs Darius is a pure match of skill, but Fiora can definitely beat him.

That's because fiora can beat basically anyone if played perfectly.

DrahcirSep 30, 20165 votes

I'm fairly sure that Graves winrate falls below 50% after 35 minutes.

tooomineSep 30, 20165 votes

First off, graves' laning phase sucks. it is, by far, the weakest in the bot lane.

that much being said, you made 1 or 2 good points, and blew everything else your complaining about out of context/proportion. That much being said, I'm not about to talk to you anymore about where you're clearly wrong and uninterested in having logical discussions.

everyone else on the boards who reads this, please know that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, and is passionately appealing to your emotions as an attempt to persuade you, not based on factual evidence.

LankPantsSep 30, 20162 votes

First off, graves' laning phase sucks. it is, by far, the weakest in the bot lane.

This might matter if it wasn't for the fact that Graves has one of the best jungle clears in the game. Even if Graves has a weak early lane it really doesn't matter, because he doesn't lane.

69469238DEL1Sep 30, 20162 votes

Yeah no one is playing him bot lol

ninjaroxasSep 30, 20161 votes

But someone has to have one of the best clears if you take it from graves then the everyone will just complain about the next champion with a good clear

LankPantsSep 30, 20167 votes

The idea is that you give the quickest clears to champions with other applicable weaknesses and you also don't give them a highly sustained clear.

Historically Shyvana, Yi and Mundo have had the quickest clears, these champs clearing quickly is less egregious than Graves because they're all fairly weak early and have very clear weaknesses, with Shyv and Mundo being very kitable and Yi being made of glass. All of their clears are also abysmal in terms of sustain unless Yi takes W, in which case he doesn't clear that fast anyway.

Graves on the other hand has strong early pressure with far fewer weaknesses than the champs who have historically had the quickest clears. Graves is more or less a ranged Shyvana anyway. He's pretty disgusting right now.

Akali is SO HOTSep 30, 20162 votes

I was talking about Graves top. Nobody plays him as an ADC anymore

Earl EulrichSep 30, 20164 votes

yea, he´s pretty much a melee-carry that is somewhat working (mostly because he has range).

when yourSep 30, 20163 votes

youre not wrong because he is very OP he definitely needs a nerf. i miss the old graves

EedatSep 30, 20163 votes

I would be perfectly fine with Graves if they removed the metric shit ton of free Armor and MR in his kit.

I'm fine with him scaling with damage if he builds it because he's a mid range carry, but building glass cannon while still being tanky is BS.

One of the two needs to go. He either needs to lose his free defense and keep his damage or keep his defense and lose damage

ModCaptainMårvelousSep 30, 20163 votes

I don't think we should unrework or kill graves.

However, we SHOULD bring other champs who are meant to be Melee carries up to his level or Fiora/Yasuo's.

Dr PoroSep 30, 20162 votes

The only thing I dislike about him is the way he abuses lifesteal. No champion can get so much health per auto attack as Graves. I don't know if his lifesteal per second is higher than hypercarries but it really feels overpowered because it comes back in chuncks of 1/4 max hp.