I hate the RNG of elemental drakes so much.

YoungFarmer·Apr 12, 2018·47 votes·12,225 views

I don't understand why we need this kind of RNG in the game. 3 infernal drakes is far more impactful than 3 ocean for example.

It just seems like when I'm one the winning team we get, 1 ocean, two mountains, and a wind. When the enemy team is winning its like, "here guys heres 3 fire drakes in a row, enjoy the incontestable snow ball."

I feel like the game would just be overall healthier if 1 of each drake spawned every game, even if the order was random.

71 Comments

Cowgirl EdApr 12, 201818 votes

i think it's unnecessary complexity, good old drake that gave gold was fine

BonipherusApr 13, 20184 votes

but when they gave gold they became really strong and overly snowbally early and completely useless late. the old buffs from dragon was better imo since you always knew what you were getting and comebacks were earned with drakes instead of just getting one elder for an instant true damage buff

Tomoe GozenApr 13, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duchess Charlie,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gihIpLWl,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-12T21:55:15.461+0000)

i think it's unnecessary complexity, good old drake that gave gold was fine

No, it wasn't. Because then you had teams competing for Drake gold and the usual team that always had an advantage was taking every drake. In short, teams who controlled Drake always had a gold income while the teams that didn't had to get by with what was available to them.

Cowgirl EdApr 13, 20181 votes

and how is what you described any different from what how it is now lol

back then stealing a drake was much more impactful

Tomoe GozenApr 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duchess Charlie,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gihIpLWl,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-13T17:36:08.772+0000)

and how is what you described any different from what how it is now lol

back then stealing a drake was much more impactful

No, back then was "lol i stole your 300 gold, you sucker". Now that gold is actually replaced with a useful buff that can stack and it benefits the entire team. Which means that the gold value of it is not apparent at first and you don't spike as hard but if you manage to get more dragons, it does help you get a stronger Elder Drake buff as well, on top of more stats for more of the same dragon buffs.

TehNACHOApr 12, 201814 votes

Ehh.

Unless you're Bronze, Infernal Drake isn't that much more impactful.

Not an insult btw, that's an actual statistic the last time someone called out Elemental Drakes iirc, and as Arakadia can back me up on this. What I recall is that Infernal Drake is inversely powerful from lower to higher ranks, Earth is the same more or less in all ranks, while Ocean and Air scale positively with rank. The only time you should see Infernal Drake being dramatically more powerful than say, Ocean, is literally in a Bronze match.

Child of the PitApr 13, 20187 votes

Yeah 24% increased AD and AP is not impactfull at all, especially if you are Veigar with Rabadons, just peanuts, just like Air drake before his rework amirite?

The Blue RajahApr 13, 201817 votes

There is literally nothing to argue about here. He’s not stating his opinion, those are statistical facts.

Child of the PitApr 13, 20181 votes

I don't believe in statistics, i believe in what my eye shows me, and if my eye shows me a 2k AP Veigar or 800 AD Jhin i will sure as hell think that 3 Infernals will have way more inpact than Out of combat Mana and halth regen or some movespeed

TehNACHOApr 13, 201819 votes

I don't believe in statistics, i believe in what my eye shows me

And this is why Reddit knows balance is a meme.

ShaolinToiletApr 13, 20182 votes

Why didn't you say the boards?

TehNACHOApr 13, 20181 votes

Tautology.

ShaolinToiletApr 13, 20181 votes

Most people on the boards think they are smarter than Reddit and look down on them

ArakadiaApr 13, 20185 votes

If anyone doubts TehNACHO I will gladly bring up the post assuming I can find it.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 13, 20181 votes

bring it, i trust stats, not board... no offense*[sg-ahri-2]*

ArakadiaApr 13, 20182 votes

I'll do it in a couple hours. I tried looking for it quick but I don't have time right now.

ArakadiaApr 13, 20181 votes

So there is literally no tool for searching Riot's official posts on their own website so I was unable to find those statistics. If I find them later I'll post them.

However there is this video on the nexus explaining why E Drakes are good for the game.

https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2016/12/dev-diary-on-variance-in-league/

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 13, 20181 votes

thanks

ModKnightsKemplarApr 13, 20181 votes

Counterpoint: that's still problematic to the game. The majority of the players are in bronze or silver, so if Infernal Drake is powerful, that has a profound effect on a VERY significant portion of the playerbase.

You aren't wrong, but it doesn't address the concern, either. This game isn't just for people who are super good.

TehNACHOApr 13, 20181 votes

Ooh, I like you.

I'd like to pose that this is an issue with a lot of elements of the game. For example, Katarina, Yi, or Garen in low elo. While obvious exceptions to the rule need to be tempered out, I believe it is common knowledge that Riot aims for Plat-ish balance.

At that point the question now becomes is Infernal Drake such a pub stomper that we must actively inhibit it for low elo's sake.

Sire HippingtonApr 14, 20181 votes

well, stats for multiple dragons don#t tell to much about the power of each dragon. If you got 3 dragons, no matter which ones, you're VERY likely to win as you most likely are the dominant team and you get those dragons because you're winning, instead of winning because you get the dragons. Though it still indicated that there is no **dramatic **differnce in power and the overall imapct of the rng seems to be rather low, partly because alot of the dragons power comes from the elder dragon truedamage that ponly looks at how much dragons you have and not which ones. This brings the question: if dragon RNG has no noticeable impact on the game but is precived badly by the players, is it worth keeping? however, one would first need to determine if it's actually many players that feel badly about the rng and how many others like it....

FrostQueensPlaneApr 13, 201813 votes

Because repetoir and meddler took one look at the dumpster fire that was hearthstone and thought, now that's good game design.

ArakadiaApr 13, 201810 votes

Except Hearthstone isn't anything like League or Elemental Drakes. And Elemental Drakes are good design.

SpongebobIsLifeApr 13, 20182 votes

he's just referring to the RNG.

FlyingRoboticCowApr 12, 201812 votes

then you must hate the rng of crit as well

YoungFarmerApr 12, 201812 votes

{quoted}

then you must hate the rng of crit as well

I do. I like the way crit works on ashe

PopcornBunniApr 13, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I do. I like the way crit works on ashe

I've been advocating for a while to have crit % build up an invisible meter on each target, with an attack that builds up over 100% resulting int he crit.

So if you have 30% crit, each hit adds 30, and on the fourth hit it's a critical strike. The remaining 20% spills over, so that it always results in 30% of attacks being a crit, but only at the latest possible instance

a visual:

Attacks on the same target

attack (30%), attack (60%), attack (90%), CRIT (120%), attack (50%), attack (80%), CRIT (110%), attack (40%) , attack (70%) CRIT (100%), attack (30%)

item 3087 would need reworked, but increasing the energised strike damage by a percent equal to your critical strike percent wholesale would be the simplest solution.

Jhin Fiora and other guaranteed crits could have a fail safe where those attacks don't contribute to the critical strike build up

1RiceBowl1xApr 13, 20182 votes

omg this is actually a really good idea

ShadowmenderApr 13, 20181 votes

It kinda does, except it's a build up on your own character. If you've got 20% crit, and your last 4 shots haven't crit, your next one is guaranteed to crit, iirc.

PopcornBunniApr 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It kinda does, except it's a build up on your own character. If you've got 20% crit, and your last 4 shots haven't crit, your next one is guaranteed to crit, iirc.

Not quite. The system has streak protection, meaning the actual CHANCE at a crit fluctuates based on your attacks thus far.

Starting at 20%, the first attack is actually less than 20% to crit, then it raises higher and higher. It isn't guaranteed to crit on the fifth shot, but it is extremely likely to do so. On a crit it lowers back down, all hovering around the 20% range as a means of forcing an effective 20% instead of a true 20% which could result in lucky streaks of 3 or more crits in a row.

ArakadiaApr 12, 20187 votes

I personally like the RNG aspect and think it is a healthy version of it

And while Infernal Drake may feel more impactful, Riot showed some graphs and all the drakes are pretty impactful with wind being a little weaker. Iirc Ocean and Earth actually had higher impact/win rates. Despite many people saying and feeling that Infernal is more impactful.

HaIlMonitorApr 13, 201810 votes

Ocean has a higher winrate because it gives a health and mana back meaning a team can stay out longer with out backing to back right when they can afford. Also Earth helps a ton with barons.

I feel like the order at which they are received matters most. An early earth or ocean can cause a team to start the snowball, infernal can make an even game go one sided. Wind is very good on some run em down comps too, but this could be a easy way to change the game into a positive way by removing a little more of the luck involved.

ArakadiaApr 13, 20184 votes

I agree. I don't think the luck factor however decides games.

A big part of the reason it is RNG is so tactics change every game. If the enemy has a good poke comp, you're going to want to make sure they don't get the Ocean drake.

While the Ocean drake may not be as good on you, you prevented the enemy from getting it which is a significant advantage.

Pandemic PunchApr 13, 20184 votes

I don't mind the RNG. I think it makes things fun and interesting.

HOWEVER

I don't like the infernal drake. It feels super bad when behind because it makes a comeback feel significantly less possible than all of the other drakes. I love the drakes that give utility rather than stats.

50Shades0fTryndaApr 13, 20182 votes

I like them, especially ocean, because of the color ...and if i have a good team then i also have a good game(win or lose) in any way they spawn

I Main SwainApr 13, 20182 votes

imo its the most toxic form of rng in the game. ive had games that were 100% decided by one team or the other getting 3 mountain drakes, whether they were sure to lose and then they get those and come back hard because of how easily they can take down turrets. on the flip side, ive had games where it felt like crap because all we got was a couple ocean and a wind drake in a match where they really werent helpful aside from crossing the map a little faster

Mokuto BunshiApr 13, 20182 votes

I remember Riot consoling us about the plants after the dragons. But oddly enough the dragons TO THIS DAY are still something I don't really like... Having dragons that mattered back then IN ORDER meant more team fights at dragon and less 'sneaking the ocean drag'.

Thee Pie ManApr 13, 20182 votes

Personally I enjoy the difference those drakes add.

League is a lot like a board game in a sense. You put pieces down and they have specific roles in specific areas. The lanes are paths that they can travel, and the objective is to get to the end just like most board games. There are things in the game that allow you to advance your position rapidly to different areas, and gives you the ability to take objectives faster/better than an opponent based on how many you get. The difference between a flat gold drake and a bunch of varying ones gives you a huge variety of strategies to get to the goal and priority of the different objectives allows for changes in play style depending on what's going to spawn.

I'd like more things like that personally, more varying camps and etc to change how the game functions and allow even more variety. Or more objectives in general that if you get them or not changes other elements later on in the game. Maybe something that can set up what you want when it comes to the different dragons, like baiting certain (new) camps with something that changes what dragons spawn, etc.

hi ìm grootApr 13, 20182 votes

The thing that I find bullshit about the RNG element of dragons, is the dragons that spawn are more or less useful to certain comps, but you cannot pick your comp around what dragons will spawn. If it were to at least tell you what dragons would spawn and in what order, there'd be a skill element to it.

Im not saying that the RNG of the dragons is hugely impactful, its just unnecessary to have one side get an advantage over the other for something they couldnt plan for.

Wolfalisk318Apr 13, 20182 votes

The dragons are strange to me frankly. Riot hates invisible power, that's why Sona and aura items were basically destroyed or reworked. With the dragons you have a nebulous rng aura of stats that is difficult to account for.

Spank the FoxApr 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The dragons are strange to me frankly. Riot hates invisible power, that's why Sona and aura items were basically destroyed or reworked. With the dragons you have a nebulous rng aura of stats that is difficult to account for.

Invisible power in combat is completely different than obvious movement speed or out of combat health regen though.

Sona, for example, gave 100 AD/AP teamwide for just existing after pressing Q. Nobody appreciated the effect, but it was useul. Having bonus movespeed to move to an objective faster than the enemy is obvious

OleandervineApr 13, 20181 votes

I feel like the problem lies not with the RNG, but how the Infernal Drake, and by some extent, the Mountain Drake, operated. They add direct, IMMEDIATE effects to the team. The Water and Wind drakes add more subtle, but just as powerful effects that influence the game in a slower way.

I think that the Infernal and Mountain drakes NEED to have their bonuses modified. If they made Infernal scale in power based on the number of nearby allies, or slowly build to full like the new effect on Liandry, I think this would make it feel on par with Wind and Water. The same goes true with Mountain. I feel like it could use some kind of effect that builds to full potential, instead of always immediately being at full blast. I think something like this would make the RNG of 3 Infernals/Mountains feel just as impactful as the RNG of 3 Wind/Water.

LacerationApr 13, 20181 votes

Dragon should just give gold again, I never liked the dragon buffs.

Sire HippingtonApr 14, 20181 votes

wouldn't say 3 inferno are much better than 3 ocean, as 3 ocean really allow you to outsustain you're opponents if you play it right. The bigger issues is that ocean and wind are pretty poor unless you get multiple of them. A single wind or ocean has nearly no impact, while 3 wind allow you to run circles around you're opponents on the map and 3 oceans really make a differnce if both teams disengage after dropping low. They also come with the issue that you need to play around them as a team to really get high value. If you have 3 oceans and you're team keeps going till they die instead of disengageing and abuseing the regen at some point, it has nearly no value. Inferno and mountain don't need any brain to use and even a single one of them is decently effective.

That beeing said, i think the impact of dragon rng is way lower than it feels for most players, and most games would not really go different if different dragons had spawned instead(exept maybe for a team not going for a dragon that they other wise did because they think wind isn't worth it, which is a psychological issue and not a balance one)

DanjengApr 14, 20181 votes

I agree that drakes should be tuned so that each is impactful.

I think that the infernal drake is a badly designed because it just gives flat out stats. Wind Drake IMO is a good drake because it encourages a roaming playstyle.

Ocean Drake should get a revamp, the sustain is not noticeable at all, especially since everybody has sustain out their asses anyway nowadays.

Afk mid to fapApr 14, 20181 votes

lol i had a game where we had 3 infernals and 2 mountains by taking them fast enough and it was a pretty disgusting power up then we got 2 elders for the memes, then baron aced them and then surrendered for the BM. Good times good times

420NoScopeTeemoApr 13, 2018

I just want the new drakes removed. It does not feel good that the enemy team gets a permanent buff the entire game. I want games where I feel we can make a comeback. Maybe change it that it gives 100 gold to the entire team and a little pet dragonling for each team member that lasts 1-2min and help you out with auto attacks or that can scorch the earth so you can zone people. So many possibilities. But dont make it a permanent buff which gives the feeling that you cant catch up. I just want the dragon buffs removed.

Tomoe GozenApr 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I just want the new drakes removed. It does not feel good that the enemy team gets a permanent buff the entire game. I want games where I feel we can make a comeback. Maybe change it that it gives 100 gold to the entire team and a little pet dragonling for each team member that lasts 1-2min and help you out with auto attacks or that can scorch the earth so you can zone people. So many possibilities. But dont make it a permanent buff which gives the feeling that you cant catch up. I just want the dragon buffs removed.

300 gold (which was previous drake's reward) was also permanent. And it was awarded to a team that killed it, individually. Buffs are much better to manage, considering they scale with more drakes taken + elder. It slowly ramps up and you know exactly when and where to contest them.

Gold is much more general, which means that it's always useful if it brings you closer to your finished builds. Drake buffs aren't useful for every champion to the same degree (mostly enchanters that can't use infernal drake).

420NoScopeTeemoApr 13, 20181 votes

You can catch up to gold. But you cant catch up to 3 mountain drakes. If the enemy team get 3 wind drakes they all run around super quick. If I have been top and have a juggernaut like darius or garen it is impactful because I can never catch anyone. On the other hand if the drakes gave gold or a temporary buff. I know that if I play my lane well I can catch up. Enemy top laner gained 300 gold? Well let me outplay him once, get a kill and 300 gold back. Now we are even again. I dislike teamwide buffs which lasts the entire game. Especially if its a permanent buff which players do not contribute to.

Tomoe GozenApr 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You can catch up to gold. But you cant catch up to 3 mountain drakes. If the enemy team get 3 wind drakes they all run around super quick. If I have been top and have a juggernaut like darius or garen it is impactful because I can never catch anyone. On the other hand if the drakes gave gold or a temporary buff. I know that if I play my lane well I can catch up. Enemy top laner gained 300 gold? Well let me outplay him once, get a kill and 300 gold back. Now we are even again. I dislike teamwide buffs which lasts the entire game. Especially if its a permanent buff which players do not contribute to.

Except that Mountain Drakes are entirely useless to a team that's losing since it gives you the power to siege objectives that you can't contest. Or it can actually be helpful for your team to rush Drake/Baron faster, if you really need to bring yourselves up from a huge deficit.

You can catch up in gold sure but for someone who controls a steady stream of gold through dragons, they're always going to be ahead while the enemy team HAS TO either get ahead in kills, objective taking and teamfight winning. That's impossible if you're sitting on a steady gold income. Older dragons made sure that the team who is ahead, stays ahead. Which is exactly why so many people have a problem with games of today - one person can get your team into the ground and since it's all team gold, it's very hard to come back from that if your entire team didn't feed anyone.