Kha'zix needs more than just some piddly 20 point buff to his lvl 1 W heal.

Shinjusuke··68 votes·7,565 views

Maybe fix the fact that there's literally no benefit whatsoever to evolving Q unless your target is dumb enough to be the 3 miles away from anything required for them to be isolated.

Or, hell, maybe don't make the isolation range insane.

Or maybe revert the "turrets cancel isolation" since they're inanimate stone statues, last anyone checked.

Or maybe give his ultimate something worthwile since an ulting Vayne has Kha'zix's ult in a much better form in every way.

I mean just saying. We all know what'll happen is you guys give him this tiny buff to something that isn't one of his major flaws, call him "fixed" because he'll be slightly shinier garbage now, and then never look at him again for years if at all. He deserves more than this, seeing as he was repeatedly nerfed more than just about any champion in the entire history of the game and all in like 1 season where spirit stone existed as an option.

I appreciate you guys looking at him, I mean that, I really do. But this is kind of a slap to the face, because it indicates not only an apparent severe lack of understanding of the champion and it's players, but also a lack of interest in genuinely improving his situation, just saying "yeah, THAT must be why the assassin can't assassinate for shit! Cuz he obviously needs more sustain!".

His first clear is rough, yes. But trying to actually perform the champion's job vs any team with any sense of positioning or warding is far worse, considering his success is directly tied to isolation and you guys made isolation utter crap. I'm not denying he could use the heal buff, I'm saying if this is the only buff you guys are shipping out to him, you literally picked the least crippling of the champion's inadequacies (many of which where ham-handedly forced onto him with the almost fanatical-looking waves of nerfs you gave him), rather than any of the changes that he actually needs.

Source for those interested: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/04/410-pbe-update.html

Reiteration for those who can't read: The heal isn't a bad buff, it just fixes the least interesting, least frustrating, least restrictive part of a champion who was overnerfed and is now a sad husk of the character he's supposed to be. It's not a bad buff, it's just the last one they should've prioritized, if they were only going to ship 1 buff.

76 Comments

AbsoluteSadman18 votes

Nah kha zix can assassinate fine.

As long as the enemy is afk in your base.

Before the tier one tower is destroyed.

Because he has a fucking football field sized isolation zone.

Buttigieg 202012 votes

The buff to his w healing is actually going to help quite a bit when clearing the jungle. But I agree that he needs more. Perhaps a minor decrease in isolation range (20-30).

Shinjusuke31 votes

That's my point: Yes, the heal will help. But the least important, least frustrating, least character-defining aspect of Kha'zix.

Nobody picks Kha for his sustain and having slightly more sustain doesn't fix the fact that the champions core gameplay is still incredibly restrictive and weak.

The biggest things he needs right now are an Iso range reduction and some bonus damage on Evolved Q for non-iso targets. An actually worthwile ultimate Evo would be nice, but it's not the priority. LEAST of all the things he needs is a minor buff to his early sustain, which is what this is.

Sypher The Poro2 votes

{quoted}

That's my point: Yes, the heal will help. But the least important, least frustrating, least character-defining aspect of Kha'zix.

Nobody picks Kha for his sustain and having slightly more sustain doesn't fix the fact that the champions core gameplay is still incredibly restrictive and weak.

The biggest things he needs right now are an Iso range reduction and some bonus damage on Evolved Q for non-iso targets. An actually worthwile ultimate Evo would be nice, but it's not the priority. LEAST of all the things he needs is a minor buff to his early sustain, which is what this is.

I would love to have the execute damage back on his evolved Q, so you get a reason for doing so.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Finally someone who knows what he's talking about. I am not alone.

Lajneen1 votes

You do realize that a 20-30 decrease would literally change nothing right? It was fine before they increased it by 150 and it wont be fine until they decrease it by atleast 150.

I swear League players are so clueless when it comes to balance, nerfing something with -100 is ok but buffing something with +10 is an outrage.

It's pathetic tbh.

MaizeCraze1 votes

350 was too small. Q has a range of 325 and evolved Q has a range of 375; in lane, Kha could simply stand in front of the enemy's ranged minions to zone. If the enemy strayed to close (last hitting), insta-chunk. Obviously Kha would take some harass, but an early vamp scepter plus a few points in W early fixes that.

Lajneen1 votes

Wait, are you saying that Kha stands any chance whatsoever when trading with the enemy in their minion wave?

MaizeCraze1 votes

My argument places Kha on the blue team, having Kha stand in front of the enemy's ranged minions (between the minions and the red tower). My argument also pertains to when Q had an isolation range of 350, not 500 as it is currently.

Lajneen1 votes

Ok, and what exactly is forcing the enemy to not stand in his/her own minion wave? They sure as hell won't lose any trades against Kha if they're not isolated. The positioning of the enemy in your argument is quite unrealistic.

MaizeCraze1 votes

Accidentally deleted my post without saving. In summary, here is what I said.

Your choice of words is misleading. Technically there is nothing forcing the enemy to not stand in their minion wave. Realistically, however, there are several factors that determine the enemy's positioning, including whether they are top or mid and whether they are ranged or melee. For these cases I am assuming Kha is 6 and has evolved Q.

Obviously there are exceptions to every case, so I will be using a generic champ model. Trades are assumed to be basic skill usages and auto attacks.

If the enemy decides to stand in their own minion wave (top melee is the most common observation), Kha needs to chip away at their health with Q. If they decide to trade, use W and aa to proc passive, and follow up with more aa's and a Q while they are slowed. Rinse and repeat until the enemy decides to back off because they fear dying (if they don't, all in them). Desired position achieved.

If you want, I can retype each case I mentioned to the best of my ability.

Lajneen1 votes

{quoted}

Kha needs to chip away at their health with Q. If they decide to trade, use W and aa to proc passive, and follow up with more aa's and a Q while they are slowed. Rinse and repeat until the enemy decides to back off because they fear dying (if they don't, all in them).

And once again you assume that there's something that's stopping the enemy from attacking Kha when he goes into Q and for some reason you're under the impression that Kha's W+AA+Proc will out-trade any QWER combo (or whatever the order is) of any top/mid champ.

Desired position achieved.

Not really, because he cant out-trade any top/mid champ without the bonus damage from isolation.

If you want, I can retype each case I mentioned to the best of my ability.

Dont, you haven't used any realistic situations so far and I dont expect you to start anytime soon.

MaizeCraze1 votes

you haven't used any realistic situations so far

So you are saying that at no point in time does a melee top laner stand with his melee minions last hitting Kha's melee minions?

In this situation, Kha doesn't telegraph going in for a Q on the enemy champ. He can stand halfway between his melee and caster minions and still hit the enemy champion with a Q. It's also on a 3.5 second cooldown.

for some reason you're under the impression that Kha's W+AA+Proc will out-trade any QWER combo (or whatever the order is) of any top/mid champ.

It is unlikely that a champion will use their ult for a simple trade. Like I said earlier, Kha is level 6 and an extra point in W has been taken. If Kha has 20 bonus ad (being conservative, 10-15 comes from runes and masteries), W+AA+Proc+Q hits for 391 damage before armor. Additional auto attacks will also usually occur because the enemy is slowed. That's a pretty significant chunk of damage, especially considering Kha heals for 70.

If you want to do the math for every other laner (preferably not outstanding cases such asRiven or Leblanc ; as I said before, there are always exceptions), feel free. It would make for a more precise argument.

Lajneen1 votes

{quoted}

W+AA+Proc+Q hits for 391 damage before armor.

Cool, so his full rotation does the same damage as a Darius ult.

Yeah, I think I'm done here.

MaizeCraze1 votes

Admitting defeat? Excellent. Makes sense, since after all Darius needs to get 5 stacks of passive, not have Kha leap away (or stealth), and his ult is up every two minutes while Kha's rotation is up every 10 seconds.

Good arguement, I enjoyed it.

Lajneen1 votes

Getting 5 stacks? No problem, Kha cant trade with you anyway.

Not having Kha leap away? Press E, done.

Not having ult up? No problem, you dont even need it to out-trade him. And if it's on CD it's most likely because you killed Kha, giving you an even bigger advantage.

I dont even know why I'm arguing with a delusional Silver in the first place, talking about admitting defeat lmao, no you're literally too stupid to have a conversation.

Go escape elo hell or something instead.

MaizeCraze1 votes

Pretty sure E would be used to initiate. Any competent Kha player knows to use E after Darius uses his own and to not go near Darius while leap is on CD.

Evolving/maxing W first takes care of the trading issue (at the expense of mid game power). Or you could still evo Q and let Darius Q you, pushing the lane.

Resorting to psychological notions doesn't change the situation. If anything, it is used when logic and reason are no longer the primary factors for an argument.

Getting out of Silver is the goal.

Scrimshäw5 votes

better nerf irelia kha'zix

Old Man Teeto5 votes

Was probably just a change aimed at letting him actually clear the jungle without being dead at all times.

Was NOT a balance pass for the champion, just a jungler sustain update.

Shinjusuke2 votes

Something I'd considered and hoping for, but speaking out regarding PBE changes is why the PBE exists.

Dengeden4 votes

And then there's the faction who complained that Kha was always too strong; that the nerfs to his ult negligible. This change to his lv 1 W is a good start, there's no chance of him becoming overbearing. Your suggestions are good too but would completely overhaul his play style. That's very risky Ahri

KaisadiIIa3 votes

He had a problem: people assumed he was OP until he got destroyed.

It's true, he was OP once (at season 3), and they nerfed him, and it was ok, but people kept complaining and RIOT kept overnerfing him and now his kit is really underwhelming. Isolation is a ridiculous mechanic which only use is to deal more damage to jungle monsters if you decide to kill the little monsters first, and his R is a nearly-useless spell that you just rank up to get the evolutions.

This happened to some other champions like Kassadin: He was OP once and people has assumed he's OP now as soon as he gets played, even when he isn't.

CubedJustice3 votes

Honestly, it's weird, but his ult doesn't suck as much as it gets hate for. If his isolation range wasn't so broken, it would work really well with the whole "jump in, assassinate somebody, ult out" sort of thing.

TotalJerk3 votes

20 points up from 40 is 50%

Shinjusuke4 votes

again, in case the entire point of the discussion was missed:

The heal isn't a bad buff. Its just literally the furthest buff from what he needs to actually not be an awful assassin. Riot crippled him by shortsightedly way overnerfing the champion without considering whatsoever that his strength was the product of a jungle that heavily favored him.

He needs the heal buff, yes. He also needs several other buffs way more than he needs a heal buff, so if they're going to pick one thing to buff (as is the case currently on the PBE), it should not have been his heal.

qetzel3 votes

"call him "fixed" because he'll be slightly shinier garbage now"

When was the last time Riot did that? They have made multiple adjustments to Skarner, Hecarim and Elise. They just do it slowly because these are champions that can become a terror if they are even slightly over buffed.

A buff to his early sustain will help. Take the buff and be happy they aren't forgetting him.

alagore3 votes

Veigar. Nerf utility, nerf damage, nerf reliability, call it a buff.

Kappa.

qetzel3 votes

Veigar. Buff Utility slightly, buff reliability slightly by increasing range and missile speed, no need to buff damage because in a best case scenario it is already more than enough. Say that there may be more on the way several patches down the line if those buffs didn't work out.

In patch 5.6 he hit 50% win rate - this large increase suggests that people are learning how to use him now. Given his low pick rate he could probably do with some more work but I don't have as much information as Riot do. Let's wait and see what they say.

alagore1 votes

How did they buff utility? They gave his stun a delay, they didn't give him any utility. And changing his Q to a skillshot nerfed his reliability, because now mobile mids can dodge it.

The best case scenario is someone standing still long enough for Veigar to land W. ever tried to land swains snare? Hard without any cc right? Veigar w is worse.

qetzel1 votes

I am talking about the follow up buffs in which they prevented champions from dashing beyond the walls. The reliability was improved by increased missile speed and range.

Shinjusuke3 votes

You might be right, but the point is to get their attention and say "look, this isn't enough". If they do fix his much-more-problematic problems, great. But I doubt it.

Keep in mind Skarner, Hecarim, and Elise aren't assassins, and Riot hates assassins and especially hates buffing them (especially especially Kha'zix, aka most-nerfed-champion-in-league).

I am happy with a sustain buff. I'm not happy with them not addressing the fact they way overnerfed his core gameplay and character and aren't addressing those problems.

It'd be like if they said "yeah, we're gonna buff Varus cuz he's not performing as well as he should" and raised his passive's attackspeed boost by 10%. It's not what Varus players want, it doesn't do a whole lot for him, and the problems that keep Varus from being enjoyable or picked aren't being addressed with the buff. It's a buff and all buffs are helpful, but it doesn't fix the problems that make the champion's players so frustrated.

qetzel2 votes

I would say that Riot likes assassins. They buffed Ahri several times in season 4 so that she would see play, they game Zed more shadow up time so that he would see play, they game Leblanc a better passive, increased the length of time she had to use distortion and decreased the mana cost on her distortion over the period of several patches.

And Kha'Zix. Ah, Kha'Zix. RIot loves Kha'Zix, they really do. Every big nerf he got came with a large buff to some other part of his kit - I think that is why he had to be nerfed so much later. Riot were looking for ways to make his kit work without being too strong. I thought they had given up with that - this small buff tells me that I am wrong.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

Perhaps add an additional effect to his evolved ult: Isolation range reduced by 100 when in stealth, or within 1 second of breaking stealth.

DynamiteGazelle2 votes

You should be rejoicing. If they're changing one thing that means that there will be more and better changes to come.

This is coming from and Evelynn player who was disappointed with the first "buff" (nerf) to her mana regen after being neglected, but that opened the door for 2 more impactful buffs resulting in her q base damages being buffed :)

I'm a happy camper, and you will be too in a couple of weeks. Men's Warehouse*.

*I guarantee it

KaisadiIIa1 votes

And they took away her W passive, and that was a HUGE nerf.

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

They gave it back, dawg. Get with the times.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

They did not. They removed it from PBE again one day after it was re-released and, of course, it never shipped back to live.

DynamiteGazelle1 votes

Oh what the eff!? You're right :P Wow, that's stupid. I coulda sworn they put it back

Blunts Moses2 votes

what if they made the isolation damage bonus scale with distance (similar to what they just did to tiamat/hydra) instead of it being a binary zone

Jot Te2 votes

Riot more than likely doesn't want to give him any meaningful buffs because people liked to complain about him so long. Undoubtedly people would start whining again if Kha were to start being played more once more.

As for me, I miss old Kha. This time, change isn't so good. :'(Khazix

MaizeCraze2 votes

Two things that I would like to see happen to the bug;

1: Riot used math incorrectly for the isolation changes. The radius increase to 500 from 350 was a 42.8% increase. However, isolation is an area. A range increase of 42.8% increases the area by 104%. That's ludicrous. If Riot wanted to increase isolation by 42.8%, then the radius would be approximately 418.33 units. I would be fine with an isolation radius anywhere from 400-425 (rounding for simplicity).

2: Kha's ultimate re-stealth still takes 2 seconds. Riot increased it to two from one because they didn't want Kha to have 50% damage reduction for 6 seconds. After they removed the damage reduction from Evo'd ult, they did not revert the re-stealth time. There is literally no reason why this has not been reverted.

Shinjusuke2 votes

Some very valid points here.

Teridax682 votes

I think Khazix might still need some work after this, but the buff he's getting is pretty significant (your healing is increased by 50% at rank 1, which is no small change). My main concern is that this might shift him a bit more towards bruiser territory again, which is always a potential issue with his kit, but the immediate benefit to that buff is that his jungle clears will be a lot healthier.

On a larger scale, I think it might be better to have Kha unlock all four of his evolutions over time, instead of just three: while the element of choice is great for planning out specialized strategies, it also means one evolution is inevitably going to be left out due to a more dominant playstyle emerging from the other three, which then just leads to a reshuffling in power that creates another imbalance. Situationality is fine on his Q, especially since there's potentially a huge amount of power to be had from that, but it's not going to be as palatable when all of Kha's other evolutions offer more guaranteed bonuses. His W is the biggest offender, and instead of making his W easier to land and clear with, I think it should facilitate Kha's diving potential against single targets. If Evolved Spike Racks fired only one projectile, for example, but temporarily isolated the primary target instead, Kha would be able to use his isolation mechanic more predictably, though still with a certain degree of unreliability. It would also make Kha much better at picking off single targets, which he's designed to do, instead of poking/waveclearing/multi-target CCing, which his current evolved W reinforces.

Profirix1 votes

You fail to realize that this is only an early game change. His final level of W offers no change in healing potential.

I should elaborate: his jungle clear is not what is setting him back from being a good jungler, though it hurts. What sets him back is his inability to reliably deal assassin-level damage to a target due to circumstances that are completely outside of your control (whether or not they are isolated). Kha'zix has some of the easiest counterplay imaginable: stand near a tower, minions, or allies and you take minimal damage from him.

Teridax681 votes

I completely agree: the biggest problem with Kha's isolation mechanic is that it's completely beyond his control, and I think he should be able to access it in a manner that encourages interesting play for both him and his target, instead of the effect's current binary state. I still think the buff he's getting is a pretty good one, even if it's just an early game increase (Kha doesn't need more late-game sustain anyways). I'd like to see more changes to Kha'Zix after that, but I'm pretty sure this is going to help him out a fair bit.

Gigahappytown2 votes

Kha,zix is bad for only 2 reasons

Evolving e gives you mobility but no damage, evolving q gives you damage but no mobility. first reason

Kha,zix is the best jungler when it comes to killing other junglers, post 6+warrior only a lee with warrior himself is capable of beating kha and ONLY if he lands q same thing for elise only if she lands her e, counterjungling has very little effect right now and in general is not very worth it

if they were to fix his first problem and for make counterjungling viable kha,zix would be a very good pick

should honestly just focus on his niche of being unbeatable in jungle duels

increase his w slow chance on isolated targets

evolving q gives missing health damage

landing e on isolated targets will refresh it once

XX+ movespeed when moving towards a isolated target

Narzeim1 votes

Heal buff is nice. Get rid of minions OR turrets as allies and reduce isolation range.

Fowus1 votes

I think they should keep minions as allies but that's debatable because of minion block

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