Right now, adcs get as much powerspike as mages and bruisers from 1st and 2nd item, yet they scale way harder than mages and bruisers with full build. Please bring back late game bruisers, if the adc gets to outscale my durability with his damage, than I should outscale his lifesteal with my damage.
Big Lincoln79 votesthere shouldn't BE a late game class
it should be on a champ-by-champ basis
AirKingNeo7 voteswhy my idea for nerfing both adcs and tanks work ^^^
Big Lincoln24 votesimo to support this sort of thing we need a massive overhaul on items
The only 'late-game' items are crit items which are extremely unappealing on majority of bruisers. Just having some very strong, expensive buys like ADCs and mages have that cater to what they want but deliver it later than items like Cleaver would be a godsend
LordGeovanni4 votesi think we should overhaul defensive stats too. why do squishy classes all get the most out of armor and magic resist (aka the first 100 points have the strongest value. make 100 magic resist and armor go to 75% defense and let 200 magic resist and armor go to 25% like it currently does {i think})
Ariel the Cruel17 votes(aka the first 100 points have the strongest value.
Resists have diminishing numeric returns. But the % value is pretty static. Every 100 resist reduces damage by 50%. Reworded, your life span doubles for every 100 resist.
LordGeovanni1 votesi understand how it works but hows that been working
Ariel the Cruel15 votesYou claimed the first 100 points have the strongest value. But in reality, point 100 carries just as much relative value as point 1000. So in that respect, squishies get just as much out of resists as tanks (certainly not more).
And armor/health/MR seems fine in my opinion. It's how Riot distributes other defenses that makes things screwy.
for example makes sense on a squishy ADC. It doesn't reduce damage at all, just delays it and offers a "buy-back" opportunity to not die.
on the other hand, makes no sense to me. It's targeted at ADC's, who's defense is supposed to come from kiting, Life-steal, and teamwork. But Riot is giving them direct damage reduction (which is stronger than resists).
adds a shield to the list and 
adds a cleanse because... Why not?
I can at least get behind. Because without your team around, the revival is worthless on a right-clicker.
I don't see a need for them to have such diverse and general defense options.
Similarly:
Gives squishy supports the ability to make another person more durable. But not themselves.
meanwhile makes tanks suffer increased damage to reduce the damage on another person. passively
follows through with sensibility though. Makes the user slightly more durable, while giving everyone (including the user) an "oh shit" button.
So supports sacrificing themselves to give others more defensive resources. These resources often catering to the squishies.
(Don't get me wrong. As a support main, I love this itemization! That doesn't make the big picture any less odd though.)
For non-support tanks we have health+resists as intended and very targeted non-resist defenses.
reduction to repeat ability magic damage (because there are apparently no AD casters).
reduces AS
reduces crit
reduces AA's
While it seems like tanks should be the ones to enjoy broad options (my opinion); they're the ones forced to specialize. (>_>)
Mages have 
and health. Very little resists.
The thinking used to be that health soft-counters everything. While AD was more reliable. So AP got health and AD got resists. Tanks got damage supplements (Sunfire, Thornmail, etc.)
Now AD and AP have about equal access to health.
So when you get down to it, squishies don't get better use out of resists. They just have more diverse defense options. (Especially if they're AD.) Because. . . Riot.
LordGeovanni1 votesthe first 100 points do have the strongest value they stop 50% of damage points after that the next 100 stop 25% of damage then after that 13.5 % of damage.
Besides that i agree with most of what you are saying.
Mages have high base scaling health and have the highest health hybrid items in the game while still being in the high end of damage stats with 
Steelflame9 votesYou all are wrong about the armor calculations. Doesn't change the fact that his point is true though about how armor scales, every point is as equally valuable as the last. The question is if it may be more worth it to get more HP after a point, which is a different matter.
Armor scales like this.
Every point of armor/mr grants you +1% effective HP vs that damage type.
At 100 armor, you are having your effective HP pool doubled vs physical damage. At 200 armor, you had it tripled.
Lets use a fairly easy example.
You have exactly 2000 HP. You have 100 armor. This is worth 4000 HP vs physical damage.
You can buy a Warmog, or a Frozen Heart.
Warmog gives you 2800 HP, and still 100 armor. This is 5600 HP vs physical. Frozen Heart gives you 2000 HP, and 190 armor. This is 5800 HP vs physical damage.
Now lets change the story up a bit. You have 3000 HP, and 200 armor. This is 9000 HP vs physical.
Warmog brings you to 3800 HP, and 200 armor. 11400 hp vs physical. Frozen Heart gets you to 3000 hp and 290 armor. 11700 hp vs physical.
Armor has still had a greater impact on your durability vs physical than HP would have. The main issue is you are rarely taking pure one damage type. Pretty much the moment you start taking any other type of damage instead of just physical, HP's effective value on your durability is greater than armor. Although more HP leaves you as a bigger health battery for LS users, so it isn't a clear cut tradeoff all the time.
Now, lets pretend you are Rammus, and are vs a pure physical team comp. You build up to 500 armor while W is on, although you only have 2500 HP. What will bulk you up the most? 500 more HP, or 100 more armor?
3000x6=18000 is the HP case. 2500x7=17500 is the armor. You gained more HP from a much lower gold value of HP than armor just because you already had such a big armor "multiplier."
Yaskamasandwich8 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gdEsiQ1o,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-08-14T00:50:01.882+0000)
there shouldn't BE a late game class
it should be on a champ-by-champ basis
^This! This how it used to be, not class power spike stupidity. Only Marksmen as a class suffered from all having the same power spike, until Riot shared it with everyone. Bad idea though since that was half the problem with Marksmen, the other half being right clickers. Those were the reasons why there were always just 3 viable Marksmen.
Reason you see the same champions banned or picked, just pick the ones with best numbers since everyone power spikes at the same time. Just some power spike harder than others.
Blackstone013 votesWell, there should be a "hyper carry" classification but not locked to any specific class that's currently in league.
Knalxz4 votesTo be fair, tanks have to be a late game class since they need items to be tanky. That's is something riot doesn't exactly have control over anymore.
Teridax683 votesAgreed, I think defining an entire class of champions as carries has not had the best consequences, as carry champions outside of the class struggle to scale as hard, whereas "early game" marksmen all tend to still scale really well, and only scale poorly relative to other marksmen. There is nothing about the fantasy of playing a ranged attacker that is more inherently carry-like than that of playing a magic user or unstoppable warrior, and in practice marksmen are only the game's designated carries because DotA lacked ability scaling and features mostly autoattack-reliant carries. Nowadays, though, Dota 2 has carries across all types, including ability carries and tanky carries, and the same goes for most other MOBAs.
I also agree further down that itemization needs some serious changes, as the sheer difference in raw stats between classes is a major reason why some champions cannot carry even if their kit innately predisposes them to a strong late game. On a surface level, stats from items are now pretty excessive for how quickly matches progress now, and are a major reason why the game feels so snowbally, so toning them down across the board and adjusting the stats of late-game objectives could help make combat feel less one-sided. On a more fundamental level, items as a system no longer truly accomplish their original purpose, i.e. that of offering varied choices and different playstyles for every champion, with stat-binding achieving the exact opposite effect, and so it raises the question as to how it should fundamentally change in order to give champions the customization and adaptability players want from them.
SpecterVonBaren32 votesRevert the price decrease on B.F. sword.
AirKingNeo3 votesthat makes the game more unhealthy
Karfuss11 votesHow? It stops ADCs snowballing with one or two kills, which is something they as an entire class, should not do.
ADCs in all games, including League up until the last few seasons, are designed to scale. Scaling isn't rushing two-three items then proceeding to burst everyone down with right click.
SpecterVonBaren15 votesHow? It slows down snowballing since an ADC can't get a kill in lane and B and suddenly have 40+ AD to continue smashing your face in on what might have been a single mistake or an extremely early gank from a jungler. This means that bot lane isn't nearly as punishing which helps stem the tide of several other issues.
TiltyMacTiltFace12 votesFunny how both teams have an adc in the meta... Also, if adc are the only late game champ, why don't all players just play adc no matter what role they queue?
The idea of a team game is each member plays it's role. It's unreasonable to expect every role to have the same impact. If you want to be the carry, play a carry.
As far as lifesteal, grevious wounds helps. Also, try assassin. Deleting an adc is possible before they outright melt you (which is their job late game). If that doesn't work, try engage champs, then back off when they target you and let your assassins/burst mages wreck them while they target you. There is counterplay and there are options, but equalizing the damage output is the same as equalizing all roles/champs. Where would the fun and diversity be in that?
Bârd6 votesAlso, if adc are the only late game champ, why don't all players just play adc no matter what role they queue?
Then you have no presence for the first 35 minutes, and after that you have no tank or support to peel for the ADC's. Also, picking five ADC's will inevitably result in all of them becoming irrelevant (except Corki) because the enemy becomes able to stack armor to negate your entire teams damage output.
Aside from that, carry on.
TiltyMacTiltFace5 votesThen you have no presence for the first 35 minutes, and after that you have no tank or support to peel for the ADC's
This is what I am talking about. ADC's trade early game impact for late game impact. Everyone has a role that contributes in different ways as you point out (re: tanks and supports peeling).
I think it's ridiculous to complain about the late game power dynamic of ADC's, when it is clearly their role. If one does not play adc, then they should accept that their role is to stop that late game scale becoming the win condition. Since both teams SHOULD have and adc, then both teams have that potential. Personally I am irritated if I play an assassin and my damage does not finish off an adc before they can melt me. That just means I didn't perform my role well enough to stop them, since I DO happen to successfully assassinate adc's when I am playing my role correctly and well.
This whole post seems more like a complaint for getting owned than a balance complaint.
MooooooooreDakka4 votesI think the complaint is about all ADC's having said late game power dynamic and that it should be something that certain champions have rather than certain classes of champion.
10 fps4 votesThere are champions in every role that are late game champions so I don't even understand the point of this thread. Tanks as a whole are strongest late game but where are the complaints?
TiltyMacTiltFace3 votesFiled under Tanks and tank items need nerfs post. Probably adc mains that write those, just like a bruiser main writes this.
AbiwonKenabi1 votesBut...they do. There are clearly some Marksmen that are better late game than others. Some are better at bullying early game. Lucian and Corki are examples of earlier Marksmen whereas Jinx and Twitch dominate better late.
Sure ADCs tend to do the best out of any class late in the game, but there is clear variation here.
MooooooooreDakka4 votesI think the point is that even if some marksmen are better later than other marksmen, marksmen as a whole tend to be the strongest late game.
EndlessSorcerer3 votesWhile there is variation in "peaks" among ADCs, the class as a whole tends to dominate the late-game.
ModWulf Helhammer8 votesScale harder than bruisers, sure. But harder than mages? Are you serious? Like I now the boards have a hate-on for ADCs and think mages are starving children with no legs, but seriously?
Teridax6833 votesThey do, though. Most mages spike mid-game and then their win rate starts dropping, whereas most marksmen have their winrates increase all the way up to late-game. This is also intended, as Riot themselves stated this was how they wanted mages and marksmen to scale as classes. I don't think the OP is saying mages are underpowered, so much as saying that marksmen are now scaling much faster than they used to, in addition to scaling harder, which causes them to outscale mages far sooner than they should be.
SpecterVonBaren16 votesIssue is that Riot refuses to slow the pace of games down. The problem isn't so much marksmen as it is the changes Riot made over the last two years to increase how fast games close out.
Blackstone0111 votesWoah, you're saying forcing the game to snowball hard made the game inherently unbalanced? And that Riot's response to ADC mains being mad at their late game fantasy never coming online was to make them spike super early, making the unbalance even worse?
LordGeovanni8 votesand riot increase marksmens relivance to earlier in the game without hurting their late game
DoktorKaiser5 votesIt has come to the point where I cant even burst bruisers as a full build Orianna late game with a full combo, let alone burst full tanks. Meanwhile Caitlyn, Vayne and Twitch are 3 shotting them. There is a huge problem with the amount of penetration in AP and AD builds.
ModWulf Helhammer15 votes.... you are aware mages are not the ones supposed to be attacking tanks right?
Executioner12 votesNor are they suppose to burst a bruiser from 100 to Zero.
DoktorKaiser12 votesMy point is that they should certanly burst harder than a fucking adc with just a crit autoattack. Mages feel like shit late game unless they are ahead or have good team coordination. I'm not saying I should be 1 shotting tanks, but neither should the fucking ADC-s since landing an autoattack is 1000 times easier than landing a bloody skillshot. Just my opinion on the matter.
420 grams6 votesWell we had a late game fighter be strong, but then every one complained when they died in a 1 v 1 so they nerfed her
meowwow77 votesahh the duelist
MLDzXnRRR3 votes[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gdEsiQ1o,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-13T23:46:45.191+0000)
Well we had a late game fighter be strong, but then every one complained when they died in a 1 v 1 so they nerfed her
Old Fiora was way more healthier champion. I was feeding whole game with her, building tank, then Kha comes to assasinate me and gets 2shotted. Balanced as fk.
AFK Push8 votesOld fiora was the most snowbally thing in the game, if she got ahead she would nuke the whole enemy team with her ult. God forbid they ran revive and came back if they didn't finish the job. I've seen some shit man.
MLDzXnRRR1 votesOld fiora was the most snowbally thing in the game, if she got ahead she would nuke the whole enemy team with her ult. God forbid they ran revive and came back if they didn't finish the job. I've seen some shit man.
I've gotten more pentas with her than any other champ, but she had clear strengths and weaknesses. The new Fiora doesn't have counterplay and no counterbuild. IF you outstat her early - she will feed. If you have enough CC, she can only split. That's her only weaknesses.
AFK Push5 votesMy point is that this fiora doesn't blow up whole teams, (not to mention she couldn't be targeted during her old ult). I mean fiora sucks at teamfighting, so she is kind of forced to split anyways, it's like arguing the same thing about trynd. These champs suck at teamfighting, and are better off splitting than full blown 5v5.
Mizaya6 votesLet's not exaggerate. Mages have 
to build as a first item and don't need as many stats to get going. ADCs need a BF and a zeal item to become even slightly relevant. There's a reason mid laners tend to dominate damage statistics. They come online earlier and are more useful earlier. If ADCs are somehow strong early, then why don't we see more of them mid? Literally only Corki is played in solo-q as a midlaner, and his pickrate is low too.
That aside, the meta, I believe, is tilted in ADCs favor late game, due to the nature of front to back teamfighting in a tank + enchanter meta. That is a combination of 3 classes of champions, though, which makes it more of a general meta problem than ADC problem. If you are a better ADC but the enemy team has a better protection comp, your skill advantage means nothing.
PrinceOfStorms19 votesADCs should need, at minimum, IE, a Zeal Item, and one more AD item on top of that before they become the least bit relevant.
Mizaya5 votesThat's at least 9000 worth of gold, though, which is frankly too much as mages can become relevant with less than half of that. Especially with lanes ending as early as they are, ADCs would once again have the problem of the game being 100% decided by their teammates.
And honestly, ADCs still are kinda screwed by the meta in terms of individual play. Because you can be better than the enemy ADC, but if they have a peeling support with censer and a tank jungler, and you don't, there's nothing you can do. So I think giving them a window to have some individual impact before the game comes down to teamcomp.
There may be a few possible solutions. If ADC itemization is nerfed, then that should be accompanied with changes that slow down the pace of the game. Ardent censer definitely needs a nerf, and jungle needs to be looked at as a role as well.
PrinceOfStorms13 votesThe usefulness of mages is decided by how well they can support the ADC. That's the problem.
LordGeovanni7 votesadc isnt a role for individual impact. or at least it shouldnt be
Armadilllo12 votesThey could nerf enchanters and buff assassins but then again, everyone will start complaining about assassins being "broken".
The only reason adcs feel like they have no counterplay is because of supports like Janna Lulu soraka etc that don't even give assassins/mages a chance to kill them.
Blackstone0112 votesWell, plus the fact that every class update is designed with marksmen in mind, all while marksmen skate by abusing what the update is supposed to be fixing for that specific class (assassins bursting too reliably and in a short window, mages never worrying about resources, drain tanks, etc).
Meep Man4 votesWe do have late game "bruisers":
Everyone hates them typically when they are meta. Wait? Those aren't Bruisers? You mean you want both super durability and super damage?
It didn't get much better based on community standards.
Tobias Brackner3 votesUh, you got data to back that up?
