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issue with machete

LilxPaprika··1 votes·494 views

i get the desire to postpone junglers from ganking too effectively early game.

The issue is once you hit about 10 minutes and you still have machete you're behind 400 gold worth of stats if you try to 1v1 a laner.

I think machete should go towards building the jungle component perhaps. or make it so it gains some kind of stats as the game progresses maybe stacks?
have like 3 machetes they all can stack up to 10 times to get either 19 ap, 11 ad, or 150 hp... (cinderhulk should have a min max early game as well imo. min 450 hp, or if 25% gives use that value instead)

legit no reason to gank atm without jungle item completed, unless your just looking to clean up or they are really low/overextended.

makes early game really boring. league increasingly boring from up to 25 -30 mins imo. like hella boring. watching football game as intense from start to finish. Especially now that dragon no longer gives gold. you don't get your core until quite later now. sure you get stats from drag but items offers way more cooler things than just flat stats. items offer really cool properties.

i have another proposal as well. instead of creating cheap jungle items. why not give junglers other forms of gold.

bring back a sort of conservation. that charges over time or from camps and can be expended by ganking a lane. like supports get gold for auto attacking from masteries and item 3092 . same thing would happen with like 3 spells and or auto you can expend the charges while ganking. no bonus damage just receive gold. that way you didn't entirely waste time/wasn't totally fruitless. might get like up to 30 or 50 gold just for visiting a lane and harassing. it'll take maybe 3 camps to recharge it or 2 minutes.

or maybe entering jungle gives passive 5 gold per 10 seconds. or even have specific bush on the map that give gold per 5. say you go top and try to wait in a bush from the top most part. Encourage stalking and patience.

poachers could give passive gp5 when in enemy jungle...

there are tons of ways we could make getting gold in jungle just as rewarding as in lane. so we dont need to create ridiculously gold efficient items.

12 Comments

RookPusher1 votes

I don't pay attention to timing, but I feel like you shouldn't have machete at the 10 min mark.

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

I don't pay attention to timing, but I feel like you shouldn't have machete at the 10 min mark.

depends if you buys boots pots and wards first. or could have times when you have a soso leash/early start due to lvl 1 invade etc.

RookPusher1 votes

{quoted}

depends if you buys boots pots and wards first. or could have times when you have a soso leash/early start due to lvl 1 invade etc.

I suppose, but I main Maokai who's fairly slow and I can usually do it. I'd go with an upgrade over boots for two reasons:

  1. I need to get faster clears to prevent countering.
  2. I always ask for Blue over Gromp. People say it's faster but my gut disagrees.
  3. I take Ghost/Smite. So I don't need the boots for early ganks because Ghost + W is enough lock down if the champ is over extended enough for the ADC to pick them off.
KirynDawn1 votes

it only takes maybe 3-4 camps to get your smite item a potion and a pink o.o?

and if you are having trouble ganking. a red buff is a really powerful tool early in the game

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

it only takes maybe 3-4 camps to get your smite item a potion and a pink o.o?

and if you are having trouble ganking. a red buff is a really powerful tool early in the game

i'm not saying there isn't a way around it. (can just make it a point to rush it) I just find it meh, realizing i should always just run away from a laner until i have my machete, unless i have red of course.

Thoughts on increasing jungle item costs but instead giving rewards like expending conservation stacks while ganking (instead of the old ones that were while jungling) or getting gp5 in certain bushes.

Erockandroll1 votes

Most Junglers are behind in levels when the get to gank. 1v1ing a laner is never a good idea, unless you are an exceptional duelist, or have challenging smite.

And while they gain less gold than laners, they (hypothetically) get a decent amount of gold from their Kill participation, compared to their lane counter parts. This is because Balance assumes that, 2 equally skilled player acting in lane will be for the most part be a stalemate. Requiring the Jungler to Break said stalemate. Ganks are the largest cause of death, in the laning phase.

Also in regards to the conservation stacks. The bonus gold on monster kill (+30 on a tier 2 jungle item) is stronger than any of the former Jungle items. Especially considering that some of that gold is on Machete itself. You really have a better chance of accelerating your Jungle item than you did before with that change. (cause way back when, you didn't get any bonus gold until after you've completed your Jungle item)

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

Also in regards to the conservation stacks. The bonus gold on monster kill (+30 on a tier 2 jungle item) is stronger than any of the former Jungle items. Especially considering that some of that gold is on Machete itself. You really have a better chance of accelerating your Jungle item than you did before with that change. (cause way back when, you didn't get any bonus gold until after you've completed your Jungle item)

I would increase cost of jungle item however so it would even out. It would give junglers less incentive to just powerfarm if they knew that ganking/harassing a lane wasn't potentially fruitless to them. it would also make jungle items less lane friendly that way. Since they will cost on par with lane items. like runeglaive is 750 gold less than lichbane for a laner. this change would make them cost about the same. for an item that offers a bout the same amount worth of stats.

the conservation gold would make up the difference. I would also propose something like a 1800 gold jungle item and an upgrade into the 2800 / 2900 gold jungle item which is a more realistic price point for sated devourer runeglaive cinderhulk.

Dr Poro1 votes

That's why you 2v1 laners.

KirynDawn1 votes

The gold income is almost basically the same and even greater on other champions while in the jungle (1 camp = 1 minion wave = appox. 100g). the problem is not the gold income its the xp gain (when you are the same level as the jungle). If you don't upgrade your machete youre losing about 20g per camp. (and a lot of health).

Also when you are a level higher than the jungle stay out of it unless youre warding. at that point itd be a waste of time and xp.

Jungling is really easy and basically the core of a team right now (no jungler is a guaranteed lost).

the itemization is fine as long you upgrade machete cuz you are able to keep up with gold. also to check the level of a jungle camp left click and look at its portrait. a jungle camp only levels up after it gets cleared unless its elite).

TL;DR gold in jungle is equivalent to laners. XP is not.

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

The gold income is almost basically the same and even greater on other champions while in the jungle (1 camp = 1 minion wave = appox. 100g). the problem is not the gold income its the xp gain (when you are the same level as the jungle). If you don't upgrade your machete youre losing about 20g per camp. (and a lot of health).

i upgrade the machete but i still have 400 gold if not 800 ish gold with no fighting stats aside from a slow or challenging smite if its up and even then i'd rather raw stats than 20% dmg mitigation. they can often just kite for the mere 4 seconds. its really only once i finish the jungle item... which is past 10 minutes to get that. i just find it boring that you have to stay clear of 1v1s as jungler until then.

KirynDawn1 votes

{quoted}

i upgrade the machete but i still have 400 gold if not 800 ish gold with no fighting stats aside from a slow or challenging smite if its up and even then i'd rather raw stats than 20% dmg mitigation. they can often just kite for the mere 4 seconds. its really only once i finish the jungle item... which is past 10 minutes to get that. i just find it boring that you have to stay clear of 1v1s as jungler until then.

ok I see what you are saying but you have to keep in mind you are not a laner. you are a jungler. its not your job to win a laners lane for them. and if your laners bitch about it they deserve a mute. It is however your job to keep your laners safe. by warding or keeping track of the enemy jungler. Keeping track of the enemy jungler (which is a junglers job). can provide A LOT of options in terms of pushing advantages or fixing disadvantages.

its not your job to be combative unless you the kind of champion. I play afk jungle udyr all the time and my team wins just because I provide vision of the enemy jungler and constant global objective control. You can check my udyr game match history I barely have any assist kills or deaths.

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

ok I see what you are saying but you have to keep in mind you are not a laner. you are a jungler. its not your job to win a laners lane for them. and if your laners bitch about it they deserve a mute. It is however your job to keep your laners safe. by warding or keeping track of the enemy jungler. Keeping track of the enemy jungler (which is a junglers job). can provide A LOT of options in terms of pushing advantages or fixing disadvantages.

its not your job to be combative unless you the kind of champion. I play afk jungle udyr all the time and my team wins just because I provide vision of the enemy jungler and constant global objective control. You can check my udyr game match history I barely have any assist kills or deaths.

I guess i can live with that just really have to set the notion that you play passive until 15 mins/ get some core items. and only fight with team until then. after that tho your role does change. just have to make adjustment in head/realize im worthless at 1v1 (not at team fighting) without a completed jungle item.

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