@Meddler Have you thought about taking away the sustain focus on Vlad?

WoonStruck··2 votes·2,628 views

A large majority of the time, it has little impact during early laning.

In hard match-ups, its not enough to lets you take good trades. In good match-ups, you often don't need it at all, and it makes what damage you do take disappear, making it more abusive.

As a Vlad main, I would not miss the sustain early. Maybe give him solely the ratio after a certain point. Level 5 Q, level 1 R, level 3 R.

Revolver/WotA make up the overwhelming majority of your sustain until late in the game when you have the AP to back up the heal ratio, and even then the majority is from WotA.

The reason I could do without it, specifically, is because very often, I find myself playing either very aggressive when I don't need the sustain, or I play safe enough to not take damage, until I get revolver, because the passive sustain of Q will not allow me to lane normally and stay in lane for extended periods with the damage I would take.

My goal is always play safe until revolver. Build the main resist you need after that, then farm up. That is how I consistently get ahead as Vlad. Its not because his sustain is 'toxic'. Its because I bought WotA. I don't need the passive sustain, so I say get rid of it so you have more room to allow Vlad to grow. WotA is more than enough.

If it allows you to give Vlad more tools, I'd say get rid of the sustain as a laning tool. Its either not enough or abusive early game.

P.S. Also get rid of his ult. Its preventing you from making Vlad a decent champions because any time his ult is strong, he also gives huge benefits to his team on top of it, making him very overbearing as a champion. Put it on a support champ instead. You can do much better than that for a carry dps mage, especially with what you can do ult-wise to make his passive more interesting. Think Jax or Ryze.

21 Comments

RiotMeddler11 votes

I don't think that's something we've ever discussed. Vlad's healing's got a bunch of counterplay problems, the core of concept of a blood mage who pulls health from enemies and then spends his own health to power other spells is one we believe can work well though. Problem of execution rather than goals basically.

WoonStruck3 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that's something we've ever discussed. Vlad's healing's got a bunch of counterplay problems, the core of concept of a blood mage who pulls health from enemies and then spends his own health to power other spells is one we believe can work well though. Problem of execution rather than goals basically.

I don't mean removing sustain. I mean the over-active sustain. What if it shifted in a similar direction to Zac? % current HP costs, % missing hp recovery.

Moonshade4 votes

Zac has % Max HP recovery*

WoonStruck2 votes

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Zac has % Max HP recovery*

I said similar, not identical. With the way Vlad functions, it would be better if he has % missing, as opposed to % max hp. It would stop him from being close to topped off the large majority of the time, which, with blood magic, is how it should be.

ExecutorDill2 votes

I would like to see Hemoplague actually look and feel like a spreading plague (something like Malz E) that is considering your not scrapping it.

His Passive and E could be a little more interesting also and his Q more counter play and thought put into it.

I got a great idea and name for his E. "Blood Salvo" Vladmir levitates a large orb of Blood into the air and after a brief delay torrents of blood shoot out in a area slowing them and dealing magic damage.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

When I saw this thread I think I got a hearth attack. I am so horribly glad you want to keep it. summoner 31

PrimeWraith2 votes

This is not the right place to publish your books. Please visit your nearest library to publish this massive fat book that no one wants to read waste time. thank you

SnazzyTheMister2 votes

i have a hard time getting behind removing vlads sustain and damage amp on his ult cus to me those are his 2 defining things. i suppose you could say his pool and his get ap from hp and hp from ap are central but i feel like the first two are the things that make him the most unique.

also i think what makes you want spell vamp is that you aren't gated by mana and you have point and click abilities which translates to easy healing.

that being said its something to consider vlad without healing as i'm sure alot of his power budget so tied up in it.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

i have a hard time getting behind removing vlads sustain and damage amp on his ult cus to me those are his 2 defining things. i suppose you could say his pool and his get ap from hp and hp from ap are central but i feel like the first two are the things that make him the most unique.

also i think what makes you want spell vamp is that you aren't gated by mana and you have point and click abilities which translates to easy healing.

that being said its something to consider vlad without healing as i'm sure alot of his power budget so tied up in it.

Vlad's sustain isn't as significant as you think it is. They could easily add a little hp5 and it would out-pace his innate sustain early game. Mid-late game's sustain from his kit could easily be added as a mini-game somewhere in his kit. The focus on it, though, has to go.

The damage amp, while powerful and defining, will ALWAYS hold him back as a champion. The rest of his kit will inherently be weaker because of how massively potent his ult is.

The defining aspect of Vlad is his short-range, immobile, but high DPS kit, his W, and how he isn't super squishy for building near pure AP. Those are the parts I enjoy about Vlad. His ult doesn't feel as good as the damage you can deal with Q and E if you build and play right. His ult doesn't feel as good as comboing W, zhonia's, and W again to avoid spell after spell that would have been the death of you if you had eaten them.

Despite what you think, Vlad's ult doesn't benefit him that much, personally. It doesn't make Vlad feel better. It benefits his team, and yes, it feels good to land a 5 man ult. But its not like when, say, Fiddle gets 5 people in his ult. It has a lot of invisible power, outside of the damage popping at the end. You know its good, but its not exactly satisfying because its hard to perceive how much exactly its doing. But its enough that it holds the rest of his kit back because it IS powerful.

But that's me, personally. Not everyone. You can't tell me that if vlad had every skill changed except ult, but he still had sustain that he'd still be vlad. That's like saying Karma is still pre-rework karma. Nobody likes that, even people that didn't really know what Karma did.

I want to retain what Vlad has that feels good specifically to Vlad. It isn't the sustain that's in his kit. Most of what you see is actually from WotA. It isn't his ult. He would never make it as an ult-bot. Its his short-ranged sustained damage and ability to outplay people via W while being moderately beefy.

Xhieron1 votes

You want Vlad to be more selfish, and I couldn't disagree more. The fact that his ult turns his entire team into murderbots is a key reason I want to bring Vlad instead of any other mage. Is the power flashy and visible? No, but we don't need great big numbers in the center of our screen to know whether something is effective or not. Because we're intelligent and can read the skill descriptions and understand how they work, we can use them and feel rewarded.

My point is his ult feels awesome. It looks cool, it sounds cool, and it has very clear indicators for who's been affected by it.

Let's suppose you get your wish and do away with Vlad's ult. Well, what do you replace it with?

A single-target nuke (a la Syndra or Malz)? Now you've turned Vlad into an assassin. The rest of the kit now has to be changed, and Vlad's pattern suddenly revolves more around his ult and less around his Q-E patterns. Good job fundamentally changing the way the character feels to play.

How about a more selfish AOE nuke? Well now you've got a new problem. If the nuke is good enough to be on par with the old one, Vlad is doing all the damage himself (instead of his team contributing), and you've got new balance problems, because the new ult allows him to chunk down the enemy team, and unlike the old one, he no longer needs his team's help. Alternately, you just have an ult that's weak. For example, you have the current ult's base R damage but no damage amp. Now Vlad still feels the same, but you don't have any reason to bring him anymore. Instead you play Swain to do everything old Vlad used to do and everything new Vlad does better.

Instead, you say, let Vlad have a weaker ult so the rest of his kit can be stronger, and to that I say you're out of your mind. Vlad's Q absolutely cannot be buffed. Were you playing the game before the current iteration of Vlad's Q? If you were, you already know that it was absolutely toxic in the worst way, and people who love Vlad all thanked our stars we got off as easy as we did. The only way Vlad gets a stronger kit is if it's a new one, and I will absolutely give up Vlad if they give him the Veigar/Ryze treatment.

The only point we agree on is the philosophical issue with respect to sustain. That is, I agree that WotA is a crutch for Vlad that does a lot of his heavy lifting for him. If Vlad were not in the game, WotA wouldn't be either, and I suspect after his rework it may disappear, since right now it only exists to prop him up. I would be happy to see Vlad's numbers tweaked so that the sustain that's in his kit is already budgeted. That way he can just buy damage or other stats he wants (and new Vlad players don't fall into the trap of over-itemizing for sustain).

I would not, however, be in favor of seeing sustain disappear from Vlad's identity, and I would absolutely be against having his early-late dichotomy changed. One of the things that I identify with Vlad is the notion that when other laners have to go back, Vlad can stay in lane. Does that affect the way he's played in lane before and after his power spike? Yes. I'm fine with that.

He doesn't come online until 9 (and WotA), but when he comes on, he comes on strong. His punishing early game is the price he pays for late scaling, and I much prefer that tradeoff than any alternatives (such as, for example, having a stronger early Q that doesn't actually drain any health until rank five or something).

It's not that the early sustain without WotA is awesome. It's terrible, and it's terrible because it's supposed to be. He's balanced around being very easy to punish early, because he's dependent on the WotA purchase for draining successfully along with ranking Q and CDR to be effective. In exchange he becomes a monster at 9.

If he no longer pays those costs for his wonderful late game, he's going to pay for it another way.

Sustain is character-defining for Vlad. He's sustain focused, and that means he has piss-poor sustain early (i.e., very easy to run himself out of health against a competent opponent) and amazing sustain later (when it matters more).

I like that. I want that to stay.

Partly it's because it's what distinguishes Vlad from other champs, but partly it's because for the first time Vlad feels non-toxic during the early and most volatile stages of laning while still feeling extremely powerful once he's online. That's a difficult balance, and one that's taken years to get for Vlad. Now you're suggesting the sustain focus go away, and with that goes the precarious balance state he currently enjoys. Once you start tampering with that, you've got a rocking boat, and Riot has shown often enough that they will go to very unpleasant lengths to still the ship. To put that another way, I prefer having Vlad dependent on WotA (and being gated by its purchase) and focused on sustain both early and late if it means that his power curve stays the same.

Abyssphere1 votes

I'm about 99% sure that if you remove Vlad's inherent sustain, he just stops buying Spell Vamp. There is a reason that nobody buys that stat unless they already have sustain in their kit.

WoonStruck2 votes

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I'm about 99% sure that if you remove Vlad's inherent sustain, he just stops buying Spell Vamp. There is a reason that nobody buys that stat unless they already have sustain in their kit.

Low CD single target spell. Do the math. Until you get past 400 AP, his innate sustain does a fraction of what WotA or even revolver alone does.

People who focus on his sustain do poorly, more often than not. Those that focus on his damage, sustaining just through WotA (mostly because AP and CDR, though) do far better.

People's focus on sustain needs to go, and balance-wise, the innate sustain holds him back more than pushes him forward.

PrimeWraith2 votes

you started this post, why are you getting mad

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

you started this post, why are you getting mad

Who's getting mad?

PrimeWraith1 votes

you, I already bought you your toxic mundo skinjust to add to it.

Titanium701 votes

Yeah... a Vampire who does not heal him selfe my sucking opponents blood is kinda.... wrong.. x'D

WoonStruck3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah... a Vampire who does not heal him selfe my sucking opponents blood is kinda.... wrong.. x'D

He's not a vampire. He's a blood mage. A hemomancer.

Titanium701 votes

His name is Vlad... he drains Blood... he has a Nosferatu skin... Riot called him a Vampire...

YEP you're right definately no Vampire... sure!

Blackquill1 votes

He is a blood mage, a hemomancer. Vlad is not a Vampire.

ImCraig1 votes

When you realize that vlad is supposed to be an off tank and not a nuke <(-<) (^-^) (>-)>

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