I like it when Riot designs champs around being counters

Big Lincoln··42 votes·15,771 views

e.g Irelia being a strong choice into ADC+enchanter combos, Trundle demolishing one-tank team comps, Malphite Rammus obvious, Poppy anti-mobility, etc

i think these champs create much more interesting gameplay than ones who are only designed around very vague parameters like certain assassins, where it boils down to "you're squishy? you're dead. oh, you've got a support? i'm dead" Evelynn is my exception to this, because she's actually got a pretty interesting niche as an AP assassin who does really well into AP comps because of her MR shred; champs who enable stuff that normally isn't what you'd pick is also really cool, and I think those 2 things should be what -most- champs come to be designed around; either by shutting down an enemy playstyle or by enabling something else. for instance, I thought Nasus was a lot more interesting when he was a much stronger pick into AD/attack-speed focused compositions, even if I think they should approach it differently now I'd still probably ask for a return in that direction; as he is right now, he's kind of a generalized pick who just winds up being really good if he's good at all.

I think a lot of supports in particular would benefit from something like this, Enchanters especially, because they're a very homogenized group that can basically be boiled down to "a shield and/or heal, some CC, a movement buff and an on-hit effect" and this covers just about all of them. most of what makes them pickable isn't really any identity any of them might have, but whether or not their numbers for these particular things are the best, or if they have the best synergy with a certain item. Making them strong options into more specific circumstances would IMO do them a lot of good, same goes for a big chunk of the roster that tends to get shuffled out of meta pretty easily for most of the same reasons. (divers and vanguards))

tl;dr counter pick is good for the game

72 Comments

Cowgirl Ed46 votes

well on the other hand it isn't really fun to be useless the entire game because "oh they picked x, well guess i dont get to play the game"

Big Lincoln23 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duchess Charlie,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRZEAlFK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-12T11:06:17.233+0000)

well on the other hand it isn't really fun to be useless the entire game because "oh they picked x, well guess i dont get to play the game"

doesn't this already happen? Rengar got a slight lead, guess I don't have an ADC. They picked Tahm, guess I shouldn't have picked Zed. They picked Lulu, why did I play melee at all?

I think Irelia is actually a good refutation, too. Yeah she counters you, but its not absolute. You can outplay the parts of her kit that make her that counter to ADCs; her ult wall and her shield breaker passive which is solved by the classic kiting. She makes it difficult because she takes up so much screen space with her moves, but its not a Herculean task.

I really like Irelia.

Cowgirl Ed3 votes

yes it happens already and is one of the many reasons game is not fun to play most of the times

I illustrate2 votes

Then don't play the game... If you're not having fun don't play it.

TempName548465 votes

give me a way to counter / outplay trundle as anything that builds tank stats and i will agree with your point.

Melledoneus7 votes

item 3076

Have a team. Or just walk out of his radius of you can.

TempName5484611 votes

"have a team", yeah right.

Melledoneus4 votes

Fair enough.

But if you manage to rally your teammates and take charge, most people who want to win will follow someone who looks like they know what they're doing.

Velasan2 votes

As a Trundle player he's absolutely correct. Trundle just wants to drain from the tank and be a front line in a team fight so that people will focus him. He becomes surprisingly durable at that point, but is still dishing out decent damage. Walk way when he ults or build anti healing and it sucks for him.

Rammus on the other hand hasn't actually been a great counter to anything this season. With Conqueror keystone and Cutdown plus the number of ways to shield and heal the person he's supposed to be locking down/killing he doesn't get to do much besides being a taunt bot. Rammus is a fun champion, but he doesn't hold up in this meta.

Flemman2 votes

Yep rammus lack something, just played a game where, dispise going full armor/hp, all i could do was trade kill vs full glass canon aatrox doing guinso/conqueror/razorblade, that's just not fun as a tank to melt to poeple who don't even have botrk/lastwhisper/lyandry

tbh, conqueror should be change to add a minimum of counterplay to it. In actual state, there is no downside of taking the rune as it's beter than any other one the enemy can chose

Big Lincoln2 votes

4 seconds to charge up is a pretty big downside in teamfights

Flemman1 votes

still it's better after the charge than grasp who has the same loading time, feel like their is to much in this keystone with how safe it is (if it was charge time with champion fight why not but as you can just poke and wait for the 4 sec after it's kinda meh)

Big Lincoln2 votes

grasp is far superior in laning interactions, though. one-and-done trades whereas trading w/ conqueror requires you to all-in to get the most of it, and it's power is in its scaling since the true dmg conversion isn't meaningful until enemies start building armor

GigglesO1 votes

How am I supposed to have a team when they die in 2 seconds or less?

Melledoneus2 votes

You're a tank. Peel for them.

Death by Glamour2 votes

... that doesn't counter him

a 1 second duration GW wont effect his sustain when it largely comes from creeps dying in the lane wether he is slapping you or not

Steelflame5 votes

The main counterplay is to break off the fight. Trundle's big power point is the fact he stole your resistances and buffed his. If he loses the window of time in which that power is in effect, then he isn't anything resembling a tank counter, as nothing else in his kit is even remotely decent vs them.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=johnny rebel,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRZEAlFK,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-12T13:07:10.829+0000)

give me a way to counter / outplay trundle as anything that builds tank stats and i will agree with your point.

Well, multiple tanks are actually good against Trundle. He can only ult one of them. And he gets wrecked by CC chains.

TempName548461 votes

basically "have your team counter him", well yeah this doesn't happen in soloq

Snowman Arc1 votes

Buy QSS.. oh wait

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRZEAlFK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-12T11:12:08.372+0000)

doesn't this already happen? Rengar got a slight lead, guess I don't have an ADC. They picked Tahm, guess I shouldn't have picked Zed. They picked Lulu, why did I play melee at all?

I think Irelia is actually a good refutation, too. Yeah she counters you, but its not absolute. You can outplay the parts of her kit that make her that counter to ADCs; her ult wall and her shield breaker passive which is solved by the classic kiting. She makes it difficult because she takes up so much screen space with her moves, but its not a Herculean task.

I really like Irelia.

I don't particularly think a bruiser should have assassin burst. Riven at least actively builds more AD than other bruisers, whereas Irelia builds full tank outside of Trinity Force and still one shots ADCs and has enough survivability to kill everyone else in 2.5 seconds. A fed Irelia seems to counter almost anyone whether she hits her stun or not, and her ult still has her old E syndrome where it forces you to choose between two terrible options(walk right into her or flash out, where she likely already Q'd you when you flashed, or you didn't have flash and you died anyways) and can 1v1 almost every other fed champion outside of probably Kai'Sa(because I think she has the best late game in the entire game now) while also having insane teamfighting potential with her ult, her very very good damage and tankiness.

I personally think for her kit they should force her to build like an assassin by lowering bases/increasing scaling. Bruiser Irelia just feels toxic when she has any sort of lead.

Z3Sleeper7 votes

Counters are fine, hard counters are not.

This goes for laning (so long as the pick is designed for that lane) and play outside of lane.

Everything should be reasonably counter-playable either mechanically or strategically.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

That is the number one reason I stopped playing top lane. I feel like a bronze 5 garen main could beat a gold 5 riven main because its so one sided.

Big Lincoln3 votes

you are playing extremely poorly if you are losing to garen as riven

HaIlMonitor1 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/counters/riven/platinum

Welcome to challenger sir, because everyone else has problems with that match up...

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Those sites don't count whether laning was a win/loss but rather if the game as a whole is a win/loss.

AKA this isn't a champion laning counter list but rather just a list of champions that statistically win more games with that other champion in them.

I've yet to come upon an accurate laning counter site. Atleast this one is better than that voting one.

The reason this is inaccurate is take for instance Singed: Singed loses and wins vs almost every lane matchup, and yet him winning or losing the game has almost nothing to do with his lane opponent but rather how both teams respond to his shenanigans.

For the most part, this site is fairly accurate but should be taken with a grain of salt.

exitforever1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duchess Charlie,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRZEAlFK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-12T11:06:17.233+0000)

well on the other hand it isn't really fun to be useless the entire game because "oh they picked x, well guess i dont get to play the game"

Yeah, that happens to me a lot "Oh, I'm Yasuo and they have a Rammus, time to be useless."

Ahristocats34 votes

and then you have camille, the queen of generalists

Death by Glamour1 votes

Well for fighters to function at higher levels of play its pretty clear that they need to be generalist

Ahristocats11 votes

not really, gangplank is not a generalist

the dude is only good against tanks because: -they can't burst him -they can't catch him -their cc doesn't matter when he has an inbuilt QSS

GP when not overtuned is a situational pick like right now where he covers 20-30% of pro games after nerf because he can only be picked into tanks and cannot be blind picked

Death by Glamour12 votes

Hes not your run of the mill typical fighter though, arguably he fills a similar role to a magewith his high aoe burst

strange how you pick the one that stands out rather than talking about darius/aatrox/trynd to try and win an argument :D

AirKingNeo1 votes

strange how you pick the one that stands out rather than talking about darius/aatrox/trynd to try and win an argument :D

Who wouldn't use the easiest argument to win?

Death by Glamour2 votes

he infact did more damage to his own point than to mine

gp has as much in common with the likes of trundle xin and fiora as he does with orianna and ziggs

he might rush a tri force, built armour pen or a IE but what he adds to the team is more like a midlane mage

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

GP is a ranged champion disguised as a melee one. He isn't going to use his auto attacks like at all outside of his passive and instead would like to stay as far away from people as possible and shoot them or his barrels.

ValiantKiller5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRZEAlFK,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-12T12:48:14.085+0000)

not really, gangplank is not a generalist

the dude is only good against tanks because: -they can't burst him -they can't catch him -their cc doesn't matter when he has an inbuilt QSS

GP when not overtuned is a situational pick like right now where he covers 20-30% of pro games after nerf because he can only be picked into tanks and cannot be blind picked

Seeing Gangplank against Urgot Illaoi Yorick Trundle make me laugh special once they put their combo into him and he got no where to hide xD

PB4UAME1 votes

I love the lane as Urgot, as if I land an E post 6 with ult up, GP is dead. 100-0 doesn't matter, he's fucking dead.

ValiantKiller2 votes

{quoted}

I love the lane as Urgot, as if I land an E post 6 with ult up, GP is dead. 100-0 doesn't matter, he's fucking dead.

I'm urgot main, yes gp got no chance after 6 to stand against you and what make things worst for him your damage mostly force him to eat orange which lead to him to have no way to get out of drill xD

TehNACHO1 votes

To be fair, even if you have a hardcore Counter based design philosophy, you kinda need generalists around to pad out safety picks or set a baseline for other more specialized champions to build off of.

Of course, generalists must be weaker in strength than other champions if you name any particular quality - all things being equal, Ahri shouldn't outburst Syndra - but having a few generalists around (like a small minority of the champion pool, only a couple per class/subclass) is pretty good for establishing standards.

Camille may be strong right now but I'd also argue she's well designed and if the game ever gets its balance under control, I'd use Camille as a model for generalists and/or fighters.

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

Camille well designed DansGame

I illustrate4 votes

Is she not? Great thematic, lore, voice, abilities, and gameplay. She also has plenty of counterplay. Sure she has comet to fill in her early game gap but comet won't help much in a 2v1. Just can her and if that doesn't work because she had e and got away, cc her in fights

Big Lincoln5 votes

camille hitting me for a Darius ult every 2 seconds doesn't make me happy

Spank the Fox7 votes

Seems fine in a vacuum, but imagine if there were two 2+ combos where they played off each other’s strenghts to minimize counterplay.

The best example I have of this for now is imagine playing against MF (or Lucian when he’s good). The counterplay in lane is to not stand behind minions. Now imagine their support is Blitz, Thresh, or Braum. Their counterplay is to stand behind minions. Now you have this powerful combo that makes it incredibly hard to play around because they punish players either way.

RocketRelm2 votes

To be fair, blitz counterplay is a little more in depth than that. If you're more than 700 units away from the blizcrank he generally can't hook you, minions or not (provided you don't sit there and let him). Alternatively, when blitz scores a pull you can just go all-in and thrash their asses anyway (depending on matchup), because Blitz is fairly weak kit wise outside of said pull.

Malix Farwin6 votes

Counter picking shouldn't mean auto losing against them, it should just mean you have to play better/more defensively which it used to mean in the past.

PopcornBunni6 votes

Teemo counters 50% of the cast's main damage source with a single button press

Yasuo windwall counters those silly ranged characters thinking they should be allowed to use their spells and autos

Janna kit is a counter to vanguards, divers, and assassins' engages dead in their tracks

Akali's infinite sustain is a counter to poke

And all of these are among the most frustrating champions in the game to play against.

hmmm

AquariusGine5 votes

Cassiopeia Grounded! Good for killing pesky Ezreals

Blåbæret1 votes

Counters are inherently toxic because they deny you a fair fight. Games should not be sentered around "who picked the most counters". When you look at Janna and Lulu vs. melee champs, you realize how toxic and overpowered their kits are. Lulu especially is the pinnacle of cancer.

Mokuto Bunshi1 votes

To be fair in a team fight just like a basketball game sticking your man (the one you counter) or avoiding the one sticking to you is part of the game.

EX: Zed counters Ashe but the Braum counters Zed so its a game of can he get to her and combo?

Auurun1 votes

And that itself is a shitty gameplay IMO. It makes games completely boring and predictable, because you exactly know who's gonna attack who. Not to mention that the takes place on quite big map and you don't always have everybody around you, because of that every champion should be able to fight back every other champion in 1v1 scenario.

Mokuto Bunshi1 votes

Hmmm, would you say that by picking a champion with low agency outside of their main role you are kind of signing up for that gameplay? Like If I pick an ashe (not a vayne). Does that mean I am asking for quick living, die hard(to an assasin) late game? If a champion is slain can ANYONE have a 1/5 chance to do it on the enemy team (even support?). Asides from who gets the kill credit gold of course.(In which case i'm giving it to the carry).

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