Problem Champions and Why They Are Still a Problem

Meep Man··6 votes·724 views

Rengar Rengar There is no mystery why Rengar is a problem champion, so we're starting here. As Rengar, the measure of his usefulness and your skill as him is how quickly you can 1-Shot someone with one rotation, mostly during one leap from his ultimate. His rework not only did not change this, but it almost reinforced it. Riot made it to where his first basic attack out of his ultimate was a modified critical strike! Ouch! They reworked his Q so that it wasn't an enhanced basic attack, but instead a two part ability, SLIGHTLY slowing his burst, but only slightly. Basically, Riot did not remove the one issue that Rengar had from his kit during his rework, which was his instakill nature while also for some reason giving him instant defensive tools with his W for some reason which would make him even harder to play against and negate the counterplay added to his ultimate with the increased "!" range. So, they nerfed him and he is where he is today. Unfortunate indeed.

Azir Azir Azir is a problem character for being far too of a generalist which one most likely won't realize due to his unique play style. While his play style is unique, in the end his kit offers almost everything a Mage/Marksman-type character would want and more. He has sustained damage, great range, great mobility, great initiation or disengage depending on the situation, respectable crowd control in general, and enough burst damage to respect his range even if you are only entering it for a second. He even has a neat little shield tapped onto his dash in case he dashes into someone, giving him some nice little bit of extra durability. Plus, he can wave clear extremely well, even wave clearing well when a Super Minion is around due to their vulnerability against magic damage, sustained magic damage especially. When you combine all this together, Azir just becomes a must pick once learned, essentially becoming the god of Middle Lane once mastered. Unfortunately, this lead to a limited competitive pool when he was strong, leading to Riot nerfing him to the ground to the state that he is in now. In the upcoming rework for him, I would severely hope Riot removes the Shuriman Shuffle or make his entire kit based around it, which would mean nerfing his Sand Soldier theme to the ground or making them have a different use besides damage.

Leblanc LeBlanc When LeBlanc was in the state she was in before her rework, while she wasn't pushing the limits of competitive play or even really performing stupidly well in pubs, she was extremely frustrating to play against for those who weren't very good at the game and was frustrating for everyone when she was strong. Her main weakness before her rework was her extreme lack of waveclear without using her ultimate or being something beyond what one would call fed (being able to clear a wave with a single W). The reason for the frustration was because she felt like an Assassin who never really endangered herself when going for a kill. Due to her W allowing her to instantly teleport back to it, she felt like a character that never really felt at risk. This was further amplified by her old ultimate allowing her to have some incredibly extreme mobility by copying her W. This all was especially true when her Q silenced her target when triggered, but that was removed. After her rework, LeBlanc seemed tame at first until player's began to discover new ways to play her. Gunblade LeBlanc dominated for a short while and showcased what she was capable of. This lead to an increased pick rate and caused many players to suddenly notice how long the tether range of her E, which became a new point of frustration. When you combine this with Riot only kind of reinforcing her theme of deceiver (let's be honest, LeBlanc's clones only fool you when she is stupidly fed and not shooting at it endangers your life due to the risk involved... or when you aren't paying attention or are just a little hyper at the time), LeBlanc was put again on the chopping block and left to rust where she is now.

Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox is a case of being unfun on release. When he was released, the data quickly showed what kind of champion Riot had released on the rift. When ahead, Aatrox absolutely dominated the playing field and felt like this brick wall with sawblades attached to it that also had a jetpack attached to it. When behind, he was paper and you were a gallon of water being poured on it. Please note that this was before a ton of the current Grievous Wounds items were put into the game, meaning the counter for Aatrox was the old Executioner's Calling which was a piss poor item that cost 1600 gold (if I recall), built into nothing, and provided around 25 Attack Damage and only proc'd on basic attacks. It might have also provided some crit chance, but it was so bad at the time you can't blame me for not remembering. Basically, Aatrox had to be nerfed because he was beyond being a "feast or famine" champion. He was more like a "apocalyptic god or wet noodle" champion, which is not good for the health of the game. The main issue here was the fact that Aatrox had many defensive mechanics in his kit that didn't scale with his defenses at all, meaning building defenses only really benefited him when it helped his healing, like Spirit Visage, or absolutely shut down an enemy character, like a Thornmail against a Master Yi. This lead to an almost all-AD champion that was invincible when ahead. Riot quickly nerfed him and left his kit to rot to say the least. They have recently reworked him, but this hasn't really made him a good character again. It is more like a band-aid fix that only slightly reduces the extremes he can achieve, although to be honest it really only slightly helped Aatrox when behind but really hurt him when he is ahead, forcing him to buy defenses to get really good healing.

Yasuo Yasuo For Yasuo, his issue isn't really being too powerful or anything like that (although he has multiple times over his lifetime). It's more the fact that no one likes playing in the same game as him when he is on the enemy team. This is mainly due to the the three deadly sins that people hate about Yasuo: his Passive, his W, and his E. His Q and R are, in fact, incredibly well designed abilities in fact. They make for an interesting character with unique synergy that rewards team building and teamwork. However, the rest of his kit is what makes everyone really hate him. Let's start off with his Passive. First of all, no one enjoys his double critical hit chance passive being in the game. It leads to the enemy Yasuo having huge spikes in power due to the large jumps in the amount of critical strike chance he has, while also making it seem like Yasuo only needs two items to become a ginormous damage threat. Whether this is true or not is not the discussion. People simply hate the fact that he gets free stats, even if it comes at a slight cost of reduced critical strike damage. Then, there is the second part of his Passive (which him having two parts of his passive is another point of frustration since it makes it feel like he has two passives that aren't connected in any way that would warrant him having two passives). The nature of his Wind Shield, where it essentially just gives him extra health against burst, makes Burst Mage and Assassin mains especially feel useless when fighting against him due to the fact that it makes it feel like you can't just burst him with your normal combos. You have to alert him of your presence by popping the shield and then a couple seconds later pull off your combo, which can give him enough time to use this next ability that is also a point of frustration. Wind Wall is an ability that even I disagree with existing. It's not a fun ability to play against and feels boring to use, although sometimes satisfying (or at least relieving) when you block a huge ability like an ultimate. However, that's the core of the issue to me. Satisfaction in League commonly comes from one player using one resource to either ignore, dodge, or overcome a resource used by another ability. It's a trade that one player commonly wins while another loses. However, with Yasuo, it usually doesn't feel like an even trade... by a long shot. Yasuo can block ultimates with his Wind Wall and can do so almost instantly without any tricky plays involved. If he presses W and can at least know the direction you are attacking from, there is a high chance your ultimate will be destroyed if it can be by Yasuo's W and you launch it. This feels cheap since it completely destroys the fantasy of playing certain champions that use projectile ultimates. If you are an Ashe main, you know the pain of throwing out this epic, cross-map ultimate that you predicted perfectly to hit the Yasuo running from your teammate, and it would have hit him if he hadn't used Wind Wall to completely negate it because it just so happened that he spot it coming at him at the last second. Yasuo's Wind Wall is a parasitic ability, where it often feels like the Yasuo players just leeches to fun out of the enemy team to gain it for himself. To end off this incredibly long section, we have Yasuo's dash. Manaless champions generally have a higher chance of being annoying, especially when you give them incredibly high mobility. Yasuo is no exception. Not only is this a low cool down, manaless dash, but it also often feels like Yasuo is turning your minions against you. Most of the time when you are running from Yasuo and have to constantly be watching him to dodge a Q, you hope to the Riot gods that a friendly minion wave isn't coming down the lane you are running down, because then he gets free targets to dash to and most likely kill you. This is only further amplified by the fact that dashing also causes Yasuo to charge his passive shield, another frustrating part of his kit, faster. This all comes together to make an incredibly frustrating ability. With Yasuo's mini-rework incoming (like Azir), I would really recommend Riot entirely rework how Yasuo's Wind Wall works at the very least. It's a fun leeching ability, and doesn't feel good to use or play against.

Gangplank Gangplank Let me start this section off by saying Gangplank is probably the smallest problem character on this list and this section mainly has to do with his impact on higher level play and not lower level play. Anyways, Gangplank is a character who is perfect example of having too much of his power put into one part of his kit, being his barrels and a little bit his R. When I saw that Gangplank's barrels could ignore armor, could critical strike, dealt bonus damage to champions, and also applied the bonus damage of his Q if they were killed by a Q (and also gave the bonus gold if it kills units) on top of applying a major slow, I knew that this ability would hurt and hurt it does. Everyone has felt the pain of a Gangplank blasting you with a barrel for sometimes over 1000 damage, especially if you are a squishier champion. This commonly spells instant death for you, especially if his instant, global R that slows enemies hit is off cool down which can be upgraded if he farms appropriately. Gangplank is an example of a character that forces the enemy to learn to be a master of his respective mini-game as well to play against him. If you can't out-barrel a Gangplank, there is a decent chance he will be popping your health bar if he has mastered the art of the barrel. This is only further reinforced that his oranges are the most iconic get out of jail free card in the game, basically telling you, "Now where were we in this game of barrel chess?" When you combine this with the weird Q interactions he also has, Gangplank turns into a real monster at higher level play that has forced him to be nerfed relentlessly over what seemed like an entire season. Gangplank needs his power spread into different parts of his kit besides his barrels without making his barrels useless (and basically going back to pre-rework Gangplank... gross) if he is to be less of an issue.

Ryze Ryze Riot just doesn't get it do they? Ryze. Cannot. Have. A. Point. And. Click. Root. If he is to have a point and click root, he can't be a Burst or DPS Mage. He has to be a Control Mage that focuses on doing such and not doing too much damage. What does this mean? YES! RYZE WILL LIKELY GET AT LEAST A TINY REWORK IN THE FUTURE! His root is a real issue that hasn't been addressed in all of his reworks and Riot seems to think it is why many people like Ryze. Sure, it's a part of him that his mains would probably miss if it was removed. However, I don't think the truly dedicated Ryze players would quit the champion if it was removed or at least made not point and click. To summarize, Ryze needs his point and click root given counterplay and then changed so that hopefully new Ryze players don't suffer so much when playing him.

HONORABLE MENTIONS: These are champions that do have issues and have had them since release or at least for a decent amount of time or have been a large issue on several occasions during their life cycle for a short time, but aren't extreme enough to where entire sections of their kit are huge issues that force them to be nerfed/gutted when strong: Akali AurelionSol Camille Chogath Ekko Evelynn Fizz Gragas Kalista Kayle Kindred LeeSin Mordekaiser Nidalee Nunu Pantheon RekSai Riven Sejuani Shaco Skarner Taliyah Teemo Thresh Tryndamere Vladimir XinZhao Zed

Allow me to end this by saying those who main these champions deserve better and those are forced to play against them also do, especially those who played against them when they were an issue. I would also like to say that I'm not saying Riot cannot make such mistakes ever again or that they are a terrible company for doing so. What I am stating here clearly is why these champions seem to be issues, at least in my eyes, and even offering a way to solve them for a few who are quite obvious. I feel terrible for the mains of those who play these champions who have to deal with the treatment of their poor champions, but I hope they understand where all of this is coming from. Your champions are problems or have been in the past, and are currently in the position they are in due to those problems. What we need to do is suggest how Riot can solve the issues these champions have in a constructive way and hope they are smart enough to listen to such feedback. Some feedback they probably shouldn't listen to, but there a few out there already most likely that they definitely should look at and/or listen to. I hope all of these champions are fixed in the near future so that their mains and those who play against them can have a wonderful time playing this game.

11 Comments

AirKingNeo2 votes

I know this thread is mostly wrong looking only at a few things:

The main issue here was the fact that Aatrox had many defensive mechanics in his kit that didn't scale with his defenses at all, meaning building defenses only really benefited him when it helped his healing

What? WHAT? WHAT? What fucking defensive mechanics does Aatrox have in his kit other than his fucking heal? Originally, Aatrox's defensives didn't scale up his heal either.

Aatrox is a case of being unfun on release. When he was released, the data quickly showed what kind of champion Riot had released on the rift.

What? Aatrox is hella fun. You jump people and slice them with a sword. For anyone who loves auto attacking champions, that's the fucking dream. What Riot did was gut the champion and never buff them to stick with the rest of the game's overcreep, like the entire bruiser class.

You didn't even get Leblanc right. Leblanc is problem because all her damage is frontloaded into one ability and she invalidates melees. Permachain rooting and her W dash and blink back? How the fuck does a melee catch her? They don't. Even with her pasisve change making her "burst have delay", all that did was put a mark on someone that says "HEY DON'T GET HIT BY ME OR YOU GET ONESHOTTED!" which was basically the same thing prework. Then they gave her fucking waveclear and refuse to fix her Gunblade interaction.

You didn't hit the mark on Yasuo correctly. Here's the TLDR. Doubled crit can't be balanced with major downsides (which he lacks), his laning phase is too good because he can Q spam, and his W duration is way too long late game invalidating AD carries if placed correctly.

Your honorable mentions lists sucks too. Half of those champions do not fit your criteria. Aurelion Sol, Ekko, Fizz, Kayle, Cho'Gath, Taliyah, nor Zed have been "forced to be gutted".

Meep Man1 votes

What? WHAT? WHAT? What fucking defensive mechanics does Aatrox have in his kit other than his fucking heal? Originally, Aatrox's defensives didn't scale up his heal either.

A guaranteed revive is extremely powerful when you can also heal and your healing scaled off of your Attack Damage and indirectly Attack Speed. Not to mention if you were ahead and the enemy couldn't out-DPS your healing, you WERE practically invincible, especially true since Aatrox has CC of his own.

What? Aatrox is hella fun. You jump people and slice them with a sword. For anyone who loves auto attacking champions, that's the fucking dream. What Riot did was gut the champion and never buff them to stick with the rest of the game's overcreep, like the entire bruiser class.

Unfun as in for the enemy. It was only for a short period of time after release so most people don't actually know of such times, but Aatrox was a nightmare then unless you camped his lane and made him invalid in the game, which was a poor strategy at the time anyways since putting too much attention into Top Lane meant sacrificing Dragon control without an equivalent objective payoff.

You didn't even get Leblanc right. Leblanc is problem because all her damage is frontloaded into one ability and she invalidates melees. Permachain rooting and her W dash and blink back? How the fuck does a melee catch her? They don't. Even with her pasisve change making her "burst have delay", all that did was put a mark on someone that says "HEY DON'T GET HIT BY ME OR YOU GET ONESHOTTED!" which was basically the same thing prework. Then they gave her fucking waveclear and refuse to fix her Gunblade interaction.

Didn't I say that? People learned how to play new LeBlanc with Gunblade and she no longer had piss poor waveclear (until recently where it's being constantly nerfed over and over), plus people realized how annoying her chain root was (her E) since it basically was (is?) incredibly hard to escape.

You didn't hit the mark on Yasuo correctly. Here's the TLDR. Doubled crit can't be balanced with major downsides (which he lacks), his laning phase is too good because he can Q spam, and his W duration is way too long late game invalidating AD carries if placed correctly.

Yasuo's Q is not an issue in my eyes. It's a modified basic attack essentially that winds up into a knock-up. His laning phase is incredibly strong mainly due to his QE combos, although a manaless character almost innately has a stronger laning phase than most (see Riven, Gnar, Renekton, etc.).

Your honorable mentions lists sucks too. Half of those champions do not fit your criteria. Aurelion Sol, Ekko, Fizz, Kayle, Cho'Gath, Taliyah, nor Zed have been "forced to be gutted".

Aurelion Sol is currently under consideration for a mini-rework. Ekko was the biggest problem character that people STILL wince at when he gets even minorly buffed. No one likes Fizz and is a problem champion in a similar case to Yasuo, where people just hate playing against him (and he occasionally can build Off-Tank and ruin Top or Jungle for a while). Kayle has huge highs and lows in pub play. At one point, Kayle dominated the Jungle due to on-hit effect interactions and Runnan's Hurricane. She became meta again later when Rylai's was really strong, being a menace in Top Lane. In between all these she dies down and people seem to forget that Kayle is always looming in the shadows, waiting to abuse a new item once again when the time comes due to her E (and sometimes R). Cho'Gath has always been a pub stomper in lower tier play. He has been highlighted recently due to his sheer strength and has become a problem champion due to this, but not quite to a position like the ones listed. Taliyah is a problem champion because her roaming is far too powerful and frequent without leaving her lane open to much risk due to her insane wave clear potential. She is a ton like Aurelion Sol if that explains why she has been nerfed a ton. The community hated Zed back in the day and he is always one of the first Assassins to get backlash when he is meta. This is mainly due to his "spammy" nature in the laning phase due to shurikens and him being manaless, plus his overall safety with his ultimate's reactivated effect. When Zed is meta, people quickly begin to cry and/or rush Zhonya's Hourglass, which hard counters Zed to a point to where it is almost too extreme.

Nik Nikerson1 votes

But Taliyah hasn't been nerfed that much... She received like two nerfs last season. That's it.

And Aurelion Sol getting a mini-rework isn't about balance. Or rather just balance.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Aatrox's revive is more of an offensive ability that allows him to turret dive. Losing all his bonus attack speed does make it very bad defensively. Aatrox's hard CC can be canceled in so many fucking ways.

There's a lot of champions that require camping. Jayce? Pantheon?

Leblanc could always chain root.

Yasuo's Q gives him way too much damage early game to outtrade almost any champion. For a late game champion, his Q is a problem.

Ekko WAS a problem because Riot gave him the best tank kit. Fizz hasn't been required to be gutted though. Kayle did not dominate the jungle, she was viable and got gutted twice. Kayle doesn't "abuse" new items either. Cho'Gath has never been "needed to be gutted". Zed is weak as fuck right now.

DunkinNoobs2 votes

The point about Azir is totally off base. He's not a problem because he's a generalist (he isn't). He's a problem because he has overwhelming strenghs (poke, very high AOE dps at long range, playmaking ability) with enough tools to almost entirely cover his weaknesses. Azir's kit is just too good and something is almost guaranteed to go when they rework him. I desperately hope that Riot realizes that a long ranged DPS mage with godlike self peel shouldn't also have mobility, but that means getting rid of the shurima shuffle and I don't know if they're willing to do that.

As for Yasuo, people hate him because he's one of the few actually good anti-ranged champs in the game, and people really don't like that. They're fine with the endless selection of anti-melee champs in the game, but windwall shows up and suddenly they lose their minds.

Meep Man1 votes

He's a problem because he has overwhelming strenghs (poke, very high AOE dps at long range, playmaking ability) with enough tools to almost entirely cover his weaknesses.

So this...

He's not a problem because he's a generalist (he isn't).

And this don't contradict each other? Azir has overwhelming strengths including poke, high AoE DPS, and playmaking potential. What does play making potential include? From what I know, that means having at least mobility, crowd control (usually AoE), and at least moderate burst damage. I don't know about you, but can you name another Mage that has:

  • Sustained Damage
  • High Range
  • AoE Crowd Control/Initiation
  • Mobility
  • Shielding
  • Limited Burst Damage/Poke
  • Self-Peel

There might be one, maybe two, who come anywhere close to having all of this. Aurelion Sol might come close, but even he doesn't have shielding and high range while having limited mobility and self-peel.

As for Yasuo, people hate him because he's one of the few actually good anti-ranged champs in the game, and people really don't like that. They're fine with the endless selection of anti-melee champs in the game, but windwall shows up and suddenly they lose their minds.

When you say it like that it makes you sound like someone who plays Yasuo and just hates everyone else for constantly banning him you know? People who defend Yasuo I can understand. Your champion is seemingly needlessly banned if you ban people based on power, but at the same time you can't argue the fact that Yasuo is considered annoying for various reasons, ranging wildly based on your experiences against him, and this causes him to get banned all the time.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

{quoted}

When you say it like that it makes you sound like someone who plays Yasuo and just hates everyone else for constantly banning him you know? People who defend Yasuo I can understand. Your champion is seemingly needlessly banned if you ban people based on power, but at the same time you can't argue the fact that Yasuo is considered annoying for various reasons, ranging wildly based on your experiences against him, and this causes him to get banned all the time.

The only thing I'm salty about is the insane ranged bias of most of the playerbase but especially these boards.

EmperorPengu1 votes

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TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

A few things I'd like to mention:

Rengar's one-shotting ability was hurt a lot more than you mentioned by the rework. He's still solid at one-shotting, but he needs to be really ahead and he needs to be building full damage. I think having a less reliable Q, a more defensive W, and less reliable ult vision helps in making Rengar less annoying and problematic.

LeBlanc still doesn't have waveclear, but a lot of meta ADCs can supplement crappy mid lane wave clear (Ashe, Varus, Trist, Cait), so it's less of a problem now than when Hurricane was trash and Jinx/Trist were the most viable ADCs. I really don't think she's that problematic overall, she's pretty good when ahead and pretty bad when behind, like basically every assassin.

I really don't think that Ryze's only problem is the point-and-click root. TF has a point-and-click stun, and has a fair amount of damage.

Shen should really be part of the honorable mentions, at least more than many of the champs who are on there. Stand United + Taunt is very strong, and he's usually had too decent of a laning phase/splitpush to have that power.

MihneatheMaster1 votes

{quoted}

A few things I'd like to mention:

Rengar's one-shotting ability was hurt a lot more than you mentioned by the rework. He's still solid at one-shotting, but he needs to be really ahead and he needs to be building full damage. I think having a less reliable Q, a more defensive W, and less reliable ult vision helps in making Rengar less annoying and problematic.

LeBlanc still doesn't have waveclear, but a lot of meta ADCs can supplement crappy mid lane wave clear (Ashe, Varus, Trist, Cait), so it's less of a problem now than when Hurricane was trash and Jinx/Trist were the most viable ADCs. I really don't think she's that problematic overall, she's pretty good when ahead and pretty bad when behind, like basically every assassin.

I really don't think that Ryze's only problem is the point-and-click root. TF has a point-and-click stun, and has a fair amount of damage.

Shen should really be part of the honorable mentions, at least more than many of the champs who are on there. Stand United + Taunt is very strong, and he's usually had too decent of a laning phase/splitpush to have that power.

The thing with TF is that you know when he wants to stun you since he basically has the gold card above his head so there is counterplay to that unlike Ryze.

Poro Princess1 votes

As someone who loves assassins, the main issue with akali and leblanc is the stupid q. Its incredibly difficult to balance an ability that has a mark+consume for extra damage. Look at how beautifully Kat turned out without that effect on her q. Its an outdated gameplay mechanic that just needs to go.

Bring LeBlanc pre rework back, and then change only her Q. Her mobility and safety wont matter bevause she wouldnt be able to dash, instantly pop a target from 80% hp, and tp back to her starting platform.

As for akali, rework her entirely, her problem is worse because shes so heavily dependent on her q pop. Q+ R + auto on a target is really all she has to do. Make her actually require some action on akalis player to kill. Having her dash to you, pop a mark, and see you die is the same cancer gameplay that leblanc has/had.

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