Nerf Lee's ms to 335

Nidken··251 votes·5,700 views

350 is too much for the mobility that he already has.

125 Comments

Dominick Destine33 votes

Yeah it's crazy that Lee has such huge movespeed while also having multiple low cd manaless dashes.

Either have multiple dashes or high movespeed... not both.

Zero Skill Tank15 votes

An while we at it, Yasuo

If champion has multiple mobility abilities they should rely on them.

Although both Lee and Yasuo are in no need of nerf right now, if they ever did in the future this is nice and reasonable way to do this.

AninLegions7772 votes

They need nerfs but Yas doesn't need a nerf to his E. It already has a cd on units he used it on so just don't fight near minions and you are k.

ModKnightsKemplar18 votes

I generally think that ANYONE with dashes should have lower MS than people without them. It would help a lot with the mobility issues in this game.

I would be okay with one champ that had dashes and a fast movespeed, assuming that was considered one of his perks.

Ironclad Dragon14 votes

LeeSin We thought Lee Sin had too much mobility, so we reduced his movement speed. But to make it fair, we subtracted the same amount of movement speed from every other champion in the game.

1000angrybees11 votes

Being an AD melee shouldn't automatically qualify you for >340 MS. If you've got a bunch of mobility, gap closers, and/or cc, you don't need fucking 350 MS.

I see people bitch about a champ like Ahri who shares the same MS tier as goddamn Lux and it's "oh but she's got dashes and an MS boost!" (When one is a 60 second minimum ult and not a 6 second CD)

okay, but where's the compromise on the champ that can literally gapclose me, combo the fuck out of me, and then either run away with really decent MS or they dash away with their mobility all the same

but hey, IT"S DIFFERENT!11a1!

yay nibbers7 votes

It is different though. They're hardly even comparable.

Ahri is a RANGED mage with a highly mobile ult that allows her to freely dash in any direction three times while also shooting out RANGED bolts of magic damage.

Lee Sin is a MELEE fighter/assassin that has a somewhat mobile kit with dashes that require him to hit a skillshot and requires an ally unit to target respectively.

I highlighted the important differences but in case you didn't catch it, Ahri's mobility is independent and reliable (AND DIRECTIONALLY FREE) while Lee Sin's dashes require third parties to execute and can only move him to those third parties. So yes, they are different. To say "IT"S DIFFERENT!11a1!" sarcastically as if they aren't different is the height of absurdity.

1000angrybees1 votes

Still doesn't change that he almost doesn't care if he misses his Q. Chances are he's gonna have at least 10 or 20% CDR too.

Meanwhile, my 'directionally free ult' still has over a minute and a half at most points of the game unless i have 20%+ CDR.

I realize the differences, but it doesn't change the MS bullshit either.

yay nibbers2 votes

My point is you're comparing apples to oranges.

Lee sin absolutely cares if he misses his Q, it's a huge gap closer which he needs because he's a melee champ. He can't do anything to you if he can't get to you, which is why his MS is 'high' compared to ranged champs. He needs the tiniest bit more MS because being slow is a lot less forgiving for him.

AninLegions7772 votes

Loooool. Are you trolling fam? Ahri can't dash till level 6. Lee can dash by level 2. Level 1 if you max W first. Lee's dash gives him a shield (except he dashes to a ward or minion) and the second part of the ability gives lifesteal and spellvamp. Also, the argument of direction is defeated because given a ward(Which with the new jungle item is always), he can dash over almost ANY wall at any time with a low CD unlike Ahri.

Sakura Mirage6 votes

Most if the mobile champions have high movements speed as they are classified as mobile for a reason just saying.

DarthSpectrum24 votes

That is false.

Most mobile champions either have good base move speed OR a ton of mobile abilities. For example, Yasuo and Riven, two champions arguably the most dashes in the game, both only have a move speed of 340. Ekko and Kassadin also share a move speed of 340. While champions who are extremely mobile right from the beginning, such as Fizz and LB, have move speeds of 335.

Typically, champions without dashes have slightly higher move speeds. Cho'gath for example, have a MS of 345. While champions with range have lower average MS.

There are of course exceptions to the rule, but Riot's philosophy towards base stat and scaling is that both cannot be high on one champion. Jax and Jinx with high AS steroids have some of the lowest base AS in the game, while Vayne, who has no AS boosts, has one of the highest base AS in game.

The problem with Lee is that he is an extreme outlier of that philosophy. He has good base damage (his Q alone is almost able to match ultimate level damage of some champions), good base MS, good AD scaling, and a strong CC ability.

Nerfing his MS will only bring him more in line with other champions.

Apocyliptic1 votes

Yasuo and Riven never really use their movement speed either, unless its during laning phase and you decide to chase them all the way across the lane.

Ekko and Kassadin are much harder to kite with much more late game damage than Lee Sin.

He doesn't need a nerf. Lee Sin is completely reliant on his early game and the only way he can do anything late is by peeling like a tank or making risky insec engages. He has no AOE damage nor does he have high single target burst, which all the champions you mentioned have.

Avios16 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo and Riven never really use their movement speed either, unless its during laning phase and you decide to chase them all the way across the lane.

They use it for getting around the map, that's just about it.

Ekko and Kassadin are much harder to kite with much more late game damage than Lee Sin.

If we are including all damage from each ability once, or a 2-portal fight for kass, then the math comes as follows: Kassadin - at lvl 18 Null Sphere - 170 + 70% AP Nether Blade - 140 + 70% AP Force Pulse - 180 + 70% AP Rift Walk x2 - 240 + 40% AP + 4% max mana Add up to - 740 + 250% AP + 4% max mana

Ekko - at lvl 18 Z-Drive Resonance - 190 + 80% AP Timewinder - 280 + 70% AP Parallel Convergance - 5% missing health + 2.2% per 100 AP Phase Dive - 170 + 20% AP Chronobreak - 500 + 130% AP Add Up To - 1140 + 300% AP + 5% missing hp + 2.2% missing hp per 100 AP

He doesn't need a nerf. Lee Sin is completely reliant on his early game and the only way he can do anything late is by peeling like a tank or making risky insec engages. He has no AOE damage nor does he have high single target burst, which all the champions you mentioned have.

Now, time for Golden boy here.

Lee Sin - lvl 18 "The Tons of Damage Dealer" Flurry - 40% atk speed for 2 strikes Sonic Wave/ Resonant Strike - 340 + 180% bonus AD + 8% target's missing HP Safeguard/Iron Will - A dash/ 25% Lifesteal and Spellvamp (For no reason, btw) Cripple/Tempest - AoE 200 +100% Bonus AD + slow + True Sight Dragon's Rage (My favorite) - 600 + 200% Bonus AD to every target, 18% of target's bonus HP to targets that collide. Add Up To - 40% atk speed + 1140 + 480% bonus AD + 25% Lifesteal/spellvamp + 8% of target's missing health + 18% of target's bonus HP to colliding units.

Yeah, he brushes up with Ekko at 1140 base damage, but he has an advantage over every other thing in his kit.

Not to mention he is AD, builds BC, has AoE Damage (Hello Dragon's Rage and Cripple), and Single Target burst (And you too, Sonic Wave/Resonance + Dragon's Rage).

the only thing that he probably does not have over the game is not being ranged, having to build bonus AD, and he doesn't deal True Damage.

And the sad thing is, Riot even said that even if they wanted to, they can't change Lee Sin for some odd reason. (Or at least that's what I've heard.)

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

I think Rito can't change Lee because they're afraid that a disaster like the 1st rework's backlash would happen again. Also Math OP

Avios11 votes

Look at Mordekaiser, no one that I saw was happy with that. but when reddit complains, they get the special treatment.

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

Fucking Leddit, amirite?

Avios12 votes

Leddit, Leddit, and more Leddit man. no Boards, Boards, or Boards. not even Leddit or Boards.

Kinda makes me sad honestly, how Reddit gets all the dev's from most of the games instead of their own site forums.

Apocyliptic1 votes

These our decent points, but ekko has aoe damage and a slow with his q, an aoe stun and shield, and an aoe ultimate (noticing the pattern yet?), is much harder to get off, and a heal based on how much missing health he has. The only aoe damage Lee Sin has is his ultimate which is very unreliable and much less spammable, and counting his e as "damage" is kind of ridiculous. It's there mostly for an aoe slow, nothing more.

Also, Ekko has much better wave clear and much better scalings.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

{quoted}

These our decent points, but ekko has aoe damage and a slow with his q, an aoe stun and shield, and an aoe ultimate (noticing the pattern yet?), is much harder to get off, and a heal based on how much missing health he has. The only aoe damage Lee Sin has is his ultimate which is very unreliable and much less spammable, and counting his e as "damage" is kind of ridiculous. It's there mostly for an aoe slow, nothing more.

Also, Ekko has much better wave clear and much better scalings.

what? ekko is best played as a tank. and ekko. other than his ult. which has a ridiculous scale. 130% AP. yeah stupid scale. has some of the lowest scales on all his abilities. and you have to build him tankier than lee sin. to be good. am not saying you can't go full ap. but its unreliable. i had great success with a full tank ekko. just one damage item. he has good wave clear. but lee sin isn't bad. ekko dash is JUST to enemies and its range is STUPIDLY short. thats all the mobility he has. maybe just his ult. which is used 90% of the time to escape instead of doing damage because thats what you should really save it for.

My gf hates LoL3 votes

Ekko USED to be best played as a tank. Look at pro builds, almost nobody plays him tank anymore

Halcyn1 votes

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AninLegions7772 votes

Pls mate, just because you have a diamond icon, doesn't mean you can talk to anyone just because of their tier. What he said made a lot of sense and if you really understood the game, you'd know that. So stop being arrogant and grow up.

Mannysmoker1 votes

Then we have MasterYi & Pantheon with the same shit..

Matezoide73 votes

{quoted}

Then we have MasterYi & Pantheon with the same shit..

I didnt know they had dashes and a knock back.

SpecterVonBaren18 votes

Well, technically Pantheon DOES have a dash.

LankPants37 votes

{quoted}

Well, technically Pantheon DOES have a dash.

Technically both do, it's just neither of them have anything near the mobility Lee does.

Ralanr9 votes

A targeted enemy stun that leads him to more trouble than Ler Sin.

Hello I am Bird3 votes

Tbf, Lee has a targeted knock back that can potentially hit 5 people...

I do get your point though :v

WickedCrow1 votes

A targeted Knock back that deals heavy AD damage ontop of %hp damage to anyone hit by the target.*

Apocyliptic2 votes

I didn't know Lee Sin had as much damage with ridiculous poke, a passive that blocks somebodies first auto, or late game damage of Yi and untargatability.

Matezoide14 votes

How are any of those things relevant? We are talking mobility.

Apocyliptic5 votes

The very fact that you just said that shows you know nothing about balance and only whine when some champion you see a lot beats you.

They're relevant because since Lee doesn't have these things, he makes up for it with his mobility and peel and/or engages. Different Champions have different strengths and weakness to their kits.

Matezoide7 votes

I havent lost to a Lee Sin in a long time, but nice assumption.

You talk like Lee's only thing is his mobility, when he has plenty of other advantages over those two. Pantheon's strengths You listed, in special, are laughable. Great poke? Maybe in the first 10 minutes of the game. A completely unreliable auto block? Who cares? It only exists so he can turret dive early.

Lee has two dashes and an AoE slow. Why does he need to be faster than 90% of the cast without actually using his kit?

I dont even think he is broken, but he doesnt need 350 MS to function as a champion. Yi and Panth do.

Apocyliptic2 votes

Doesn't matter how long it has been; still seems that's where your opinion stems from. That or its these biased boards who swear everything is op and needs nerfs, or like Lux, who needed buffs (never did).

Yeah Pantheon is an early game champion, much like Lee Sin, except Lee's more of a jungler.

Pantheon also has a targeted stun, and guaranteed crit if the enemy is low, along with a global ultimate. Lee has neither of those things.

You people here just don't seem to understand how kits work, and how just because one champion has certain movespeed and is ranged, or melee, or whatever doesn't mean every champion that is ranged or melee should have that movespeed as well.

Tik1153 votes

Except Panths skill (Outside of his ult obviously) are short ranged, all 3 of his skills are only 600 range while Lees W is 700 and his Q is 1100-1300 (depending on first or second cast), the reason Panth has the high mobility, the point and clikc stun, the gaurenteed crits is because of how short range his kit is, it's the same reason why Vlad has his passive or Ryze builds mana more then AP because it counteracts their short range kits

Lee on the other hand has two skills which outrange them with his main one being twice as long as a Cait AA

"Well thats so he can catch out squishies" ok, so why does he also need all that move speed if he has such a long range Q? he should be depending on hitting that Q to set himself up, not missing it deciding he's fast enough and just Ward jumping to the squishy ESPECIALLY given how his W travel time seems to be faster then his second Q cast making it hard to hit him

Bronze Demon2 votes

Pantheon q is auto target. Range doesn't mean much if it's unreliable

S H A Y C 07 votes

i dont want to fight anyone..but what are lee sins "weaknesses?"

Yosuke Apperu7 votes

Chances are people are just going to say poke and targeted cc.. but hard cc shouldn't be considered counter play if it counters everything in the game.. In my opinion.. he has none. Though to be honest watching someone like Grippex play him is truly a beautiful.. disgusting sight to behold <3

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

but hard cc shouldn't be considered counter play if it counters everything in the game

Olaf Gangplank item 3140

I don't disagree with the sentiment. But I like poking holes in that specific statement when it comes up.

Yosuke Apperu2 votes

Sir/ma'am I respect your response and do agree with it :) Those are a few edge cases however. As I said I do agree with you though ^^

INoble KnightI1 votes

Alistar You forgot one.

The Ellimiist1 votes

crap lategame, skillshot reliant engage amongst other things.

Taarki1 votes

Dat ward hop tho... And his "skillshot reliant engage" can take half an adc HP off with both uses.

The Ellimiist1 votes

So can pretty much every skill in the game. welcome to having shit hp

Melledoneus2 votes

Lee's Q nukes everyone. Just because he can.

Taarki1 votes

Wow I didn't know every skill in the game was a 1k+ range dash. News to me!!!

GlockHammer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gNWpFacG,comment-id=000100000001000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-06T17:42:30.981+0000)

i dont want to fight anyone..but what are lee sins "weaknesses?"

He can be cc'd! HERP-DI-DERP!

IcyPepper24 votes

Yi is gotta go fast guy, and doesn't have nearly the level of mobility and cc Lee Sin has.

Pantheon, you can make a claim about his stun and ult, but Lee Sin is definitely more mobile than he is.

Ralanr7 votes

Pantheon really isn't that mobile to begin with.

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