A perfect summary of Dynamic Queue's fundamental flaw

Nidken··50 votes·2,356 views

I have been trying to put my own concerns into words for a long time. I figured this needed more exposure. Original post by SergeantScuttler:

"A pure solo player with rank X and a pure 5s player of the same rank don't represent the same skillset. They're vastly different experiences and don't belong on the same ladder in a competitive game. It would be similarly misguided to average out doubles and singles rankings for tennis in order to provide a unified ranking. Just like in DQ's case, this would only create an ambiguous ranking which fails to be a good indicator for either format.

For a ladder to be valid, it has to operate under controlled conditions which are consistent for all its members. DQ adds a myriad of new variables which greatly increase the difficulty in isolating individual skill while also dramatically increasing variance and leading to a feeling of reduced individual control in outcomes (for both directions). Worst of all, many of the variables are not only unequal but also unknowable (voice communication, smurfs boosting friends, well-practiced pre-game plans and strategies etc.). Unknowable variables are especially problematic because it's impossible to perfectly compensate for their absence/presence and their influence can be wildly different from game to game.

When you can't accurately compare players of the same ranking due to potentially huge queue configuration differences, you know the ranking system is broken at its core. These are not just matchmaking or queue time issues. This is about the very legitimacy of ranked and as long as such inconsistent experiences are aggregated on the same ladder, it will always fail in this dimension. Even the best voodoo math cannot change the fact that the fundamentals directly oppose key premises of a viable ladder and such attempts will always lack transparency for laymen anyway.

As ranked is further devalued, motivation to pursue the game seriously will dampen and the primary engine behind the game's growth will eventually stall. When people no longer respect and trust the ranked system, they'll be less driven by self-improvement through streams, guides, as well as watching LCS or absorbing other LoL content.

Forsaking ranked integrity in the hope of attracting more casuals is akin to plunging a dagger through your heart to cure high blood pressure. As the blood pressure first drops, it may seem that cardiovascular health is better but the cruel truth eventually manifests itself. Most of what makes LoL a vibrant game comes from its hardcore fans who make art, create websites, stream, preach to their friends, post on forums, etc. The casuals don't care all that much whether it's normals or ranked anyway and tend to follow the trendsetters from game to game. Even if ranked is more accessible to them, they may never become that "ideal ranked player" who buys a lot of skins and champions. It’s not worth losing the goodwill of the community and frustrating those who actually do care about ranked."

27 Comments

doiminat0r360010 votes

So basically, re-saying everything that the community has been saying since the release of DQ. That premades and solos shouldnt be on the same ladder.

Very Hard Engage6 votes

accurate AF.

shame riot doesn't care.

PrinceArchie5 votes

Indeed

JRobin313 votes

+1 for comparison to tennis doubles/singles -1 because "solo queue" isn't comparable to tennis singles

The point appears valid because players queue and play as teams but get ranked as individuals. However, the point is invalid because team play doesn't actually stop individuals from distinguishing themselves.

Professional play is five man teams. Individual players can't compete and win Worlds, only teams can. Playing as a solo player is playing casually and the "problem" is that many players that play solo can't accept that playing solo is a casual way to play. To express this further let's return to the tennis analogy.

"Solo Queue" is analogous to wanting to play tennis doubles with randomly matched teammates in an effort to show that you as an individual are the best tennis doubles player. The idea is so absurd that there aren't any serious competitive tennis leagues that do this. Playing that way in tennis would have to be considered a non-serious (aka casual) way to play. The closest parallel is Canadian doubles (or cutthroat tennis) which is used as a training method.

So to sum up, solo queue was never a serious way to compete.

Let's talk competitive integrity: The real issue is maintaining the integrity of ranked team play by resolving the dichotomy between dynamic queue and professional five man teams. RIOT has already been forced to bring back ranked fives (notice RIOT hasn't been forced to bring back solo queue despite the apparent outrage). This is because solo queue was never an integral way to play the game, but five man teams is.

BloodyFuscus2 votes

I dont get why people arent up in arms readfy to fight this tyranny. You talk about it anywhere and people shut you down. The ranking system is MORE than just garbage and it desperately needs a rework. Stop having this damn MMR and just have ranked badge. Plats vs Plats. Golds vs Golds. Let THAT system put people where they belong. Boosters cant be stopped! You can pay 50 bucks to get plat in 2 days! You have this nonsense for NO reason. And its killing competition! We WANT competition!

LatetotheRace5 votes

Hey you know how to fix the ranked ladder? AND boosting? Full solo Q, with 5v5 teams. There you go, job done. The ranked system actually works, and boosting is done with.

Meta Phyton2 votes

Huh? Is he born to a be a politician because I just read 4 huge purple paragraphs, and I have no clear image in my head of what it's even trying to say. Can you put it into normal language?

BloodyFuscus3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Meta Phyton,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B7tlEQrN,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-08-20T21:05:24.477+0000)

Huh? Is he born to a be a politician because I just read 4 huge purple paragraphs, and I have no clear image in my head of what it's even trying to say. Can you put it into normal language?

Playing in dynamic queue. You experience different things if you solo,duo,trio,quad, or 5 man. Its not the same thing at all. But you still fight for same tiers. If theres going to be a solo q it has to have the same perimeters for everyone who joins otherwise whats the point.

Youre unable to know what your opponent is. Are they a 5 man with 4 diamond smurfs? Or slightly less than that ... so they are beatable but you have to know they will communicate through discord and take that into consideration in how you attack. It really pulls away individuality. What can YOU do to secure a win. Are you even relevant? Is it just who you group with?

Since players can be better or worse depending on how they queue.. and not what their rank is... the system is broken. The goal is for EQUAL skilled players to fight each other. Riot is trying to make their stupid system work instead of reworking it all and making it basic. Just find out how good a player is and rank them accordingly through trial and error of games. Dont try and move us around and change mmr based on a bunch of factors. Its pointless.

Since all this is happening, its makes people who want to win and progress... see no point. And quit. When people stop trusting what it means to be gold plat diamond... the game essentially has no point at all. Why go for ranking? Why try to improve and get better? Why try to make the game tough and full of competition? Why watch LCS? Why watch youtube videos? Why buy guides?

Getting rid of your integrity (making the game a fair system where the good players rise and the bad players dont) so that you can stop a few people from cheating is pointless. Not only can you not stop the cheating... youll destroy your game! Youll lose your hardcore players who love the game. Who buy skins. Who make fanart. Who really CARE about the game. Once the fanbase is gone... you've got a potentially broken game where people stop coming back.

Meta Phyton1 votes

The players invented smurfing. That is a problem .. created by the players, affecting the players.

You talk about integrity, but have you really thought deeply and reflected personally about what integrity is?

I have bad RNG2 votes

This is a very simple explanation. Dynamic queue brings with it many variables to attract more casuals. Variables kills competition and runs off the hardcore players and over time that will kill the game.

Meta Phyton1 votes

Honestly, I don't think that you guys with that kind of rigid mentality belong to the kind of bastion of fairness and integrity that you seem to envision as your own holiness. And, I just do not believe that you guys who are rigid and inflexible and nerds for balance are so influential or important to the whole experience, that it will collapse when you leave.

Vik4prez2 votes

But even if you give premade players and solo players different ladders but still playing in the same queue there are still going to be issues with the system fundamentally. I suppose splitting the ladders might solve some issues pertaining to how accurate a players rank is compared to others, but at the end of the day having a mixed queue for premades and solos is still going to make the system suspect.

They need to be completely isolated from one another. One queue and ladder for pure solo players, and another queue and ladder for premade players. If the queue for premade players fails after the removal of the solo players, then that queue is inherently flawed anyways and should be removed, not propped up and floated along at the expense of so many other aspects of the system.

BloodyFuscus1 votes

Why do people rank comments down when you talk about boosters. The system is designed to stop boosters. Well.... right now you can pay some dude 50 bucks to boost you to plat. 200 for diamond. So why have this nonsense system if you can still boost? And boost easily too!

CypherDoom1 votes

tl;dr pls

Keevalroy15 votes

Tl;dr - Dynamic queue sucks all of the competitiveness out of the ranked game mode which markets as, and calls itself a competitive experience. This means one of the main reasons to play ranked is now gone, and ranked as a whole is deemed meaningless since it's been casualized so heavily. Riot thinks they have a great idea, but they're butchering League and refuse to see it, or legitimately don't realize it.

Still Tl;dr? - Dynamic Queue is AIDS and Riot needs to get rid of it.

CypherDoom2 votes

yeah DQ sucks at the momment, good thing is Riot is planning on changing the ladder for next season so solo/duoq players are in one ranked ladder and party players are ranked in another ladder for this purpose. and diamond players can only queue as solo/duo and master+ players can only Q solo, so the goal for next season is to achieve diamond so we solo players can have back our experience of a solo ladder

Master Artoria1 votes

Really? Lucky you, Oce is probably going to be told we don't have the numbers for that and just left with DQ :/

Tufio2 votes

{quoted}

yeah DQ sucks at the momment, good thing is Riot is planning on changing the ladder for next season so solo/duoq players are in one ranked ladder and party players are ranked in another ladder for this purpose. and diamond players can only queue as solo/duo and master+ players can only Q solo, so the goal for next season is to achieve diamond so we solo players can have back our experience of a solo ladder

No.

The titanium/copper/steel/whatever ranks for premades are just emblems on steroids.

The mmr will still be the same, solos will still play with premades in the same ladder but different "metals".

Nothing gonna change, most of diamond will still be full of boosted people and diamond+/master/challenger will still get massive queue times for lack of supports and low playerbase like now.

Keevalroy1 votes

Right, get diamond so we can have solo queue. And before that, everyone still has to deal with this shit system. Nice one Riot...

TeCoolMage1 votes

In the old system, a rank x fizz player would have a different skillset from a rank x soraka player.

While I don't mind either way with DQ, I think maybe Riot is just expanding what they consider valid skills, which is to be organized in your team regardless of circumstance.

Why not make it 1v1 with only 1 specific champion for every single match if it was about some objective skill? Because part of the skill is to be able to play fizz well regardless of what the enemy picks, and Riot can be trying to say that part of what makes a person a good LoL player is that they can play against premades as a solo player, and against solo players as a premade.

While I think it's unfair if the odds for winning as a solo q player are worse than as a premade player, if they're the same, it should be fine.

I really don't like the whole, 'These changes make it harder to measure objective skill like the old system' argument, because it was never possible to measure objective skill. 'skill' is just an arbitrarily defined concept that can be measured by ranks, and is subject to whatever changes Riot places. The only real concern of DQ is whether players enjoy it, and if it has an even winning chance (both are completely valid arguments for removing DQ, but this one isn't)

But whether they remove DQ or not, I don't care as I don't like ranked anyway. I just want the role queue system for normals, ughhh

I have bad RNG2 votes

By your logic we'd all revert back to playing pong. The line must be drawn somewhere.

TeCoolMage1 votes

No, by my logic, this argument's logic is that we should all play pong.

I'm saying that the line is drawn by Riot games and the belief that DQ removes some sort of 'objective skill' is absurd

I have bad RNG1 votes

Spot on. The variance kills competition. Preach on. Couldn't have said it any better.

BloodyTompon1 votes

SoloQ also suffers from the same issue, just to a lesser extent. If it's a fundamental flaw for dynamicQ, logically it ought to be a fundamental flaw for soloQ too.

Zarvanis1 votes

Several League YouTubers have done videos on something Riot said about potentially adding a second ladder just for Dynamic Queue in Season 7.

People can either pick the Solo Ladder or Dynamic Ladder. Swapping to the other one requires you to play through placements again, and you'll probably land in a division lower than you were in the previous ladder.

The Dynamic Queue Ladder is Copper, Iron, Steel, Titanium. Then you go to Diamond, where you can only solo/duo. Then in Masters/Challenger you can only Solo.

Solo players still have to play with people in the Dynamic Ladder, but their ranks actually mean something again.

This is just a concept. Work in progress, if it even happens.

Rain NT1 votes

So we all agreee, ALL OF US AGREES, Riot you better be listening, this one.. this one you guys screwed up.

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