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Tip for people who find AP assassin mids frustrating: Play Karma

Illabethe··2 votes·1,988 views

I just like to remind people every once in awhile..... a 46% champ is the right choice:

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2900482994/243999882?tab=stats

Solo'd everyone on their team without taking more than half health damage several times.

Sometimes..... people need to realize a champ they think is a mage is actually an apc......

(And it's about to get more fun because of the rework :) )

[sg-kiko]

To explain a little bit: I rarely ever try to kill someone with Q on Karma. It's not meant for that. Karma has a substantially long range auto attack and her Passive procs off it.

I pretty much just froze in lane until fizz got frustrated and went bot to try to get "something." Then I start roaming, and doing a better job than he does. Was like 5/1/4 in lane.

Never throw Q's that won't connect, and always be ready to W, follow with shield, and then Q on the rebound.

Don't farm with Q. Auto attack. She is one of the best lane last hitters in the game.

Personally I don't understand why she's getting a rework..... I can already do more with Karma than I can with a lot of newer champions. (I Solo'd the Kai Sa 4 times, because I can reposition on Karma more than she can reposition on Kai Sa...... which should say something. We have similar kits in all regards except her passive giving more damage, so she should have an edge, but that's just not what happens).

She's more reliable than Evelynn at winning games..... and that's kind of sad to me. Evelynn = kill machine but no pressure. Karma = Nonstop lane pressure + kill machine.

23 Comments

letsfeedtogether5 votes

NO 98% of champs out scale her late game

Illabethe2 votes

Depends on how you build, how you play, and whether or not your team lacks wave clear.

Most games are fungible for Karma late game. The problem is, most players either build her full AP and die a lot, or only use Q, and ignore her poke potential with auto attacks, W, and occasionally E. Or, they build pure tank and can do nothing.

I build neither. I build Move speed/Utility. My presence never goes away. My goal is purely to Root. Auto attack, Low Q poke, and isolate the easiest targets to hit.

Btw, I've actually killed a Sejuani late game in about 8 seconds with Karma before, and it wasn't on a full AP or tank build. It was a build like this.

Sharpest glasses2 votes

Assassins dont outscale a mage

HP Crookshanks4 votes

ADs are much better choice against APs bacause of their much better item and rune choices. item 3155 item 1033 item 3155 item 3140 item 3155 item 3111 item 3155 item 3139 item 3155 item 3156 item 3155

Illabethe1 votes

You go pull that adc mid dude :)

Also..... none of those items really stop me o.O (Notice about 4k of my champ damage is Physical? I auto attack. If I wanted to, I could have went Iceborne and did over 7-8k Physical).

Pillar Of SaIt1 votes

You have to sacrifice or delay a core item for those

Banshee's and ZH both fit the same second-or-third item slot without sacrificing anything

Hochelaga2 votes

I'm not sure if I should take this post seriously or not. I dare you to take this build and bring it to diamond elo. Then i'll see if this build is legit.

I see multiple problem with your build :

  • Taking medallion as your first item when you're not a support is now bad. You won't recoup on your gold unless you are a very bad farmer.
  • No single magic penetration items coupled with low AP items is going to cause you major trouble during late game. You are lucky that none of them had solid resistance and your team was ahead.
  • Having lich bane on Karma coupled with 2 support ap items contradict your build. Either you stay behind helping your allies and be safe, or you go all in.
  • Cheap items early won't save you from late game. That build is meant to last for 20-30 minutes games. Imagine if you had that build during a 60 minutes match.
Illabethe1 votes

Luls.

  1. I'm Diamond II on my actual account.

  2. Not on Medallion. Medallion suffers no consequences and gives you 10 extra base move speed, CDR, and even GOOD csers still only have about an average 60-70% Capture rate of CS. Bad Csers push 40-50%. You can also intentionally stack it, since Large minions are guaranteed to drop a coin. Just kill the small minions but leave the large ones to the coin. 50% of the time, it's Gold (Not saying it's perfect but you're going to lose some large ones anyways in competitive play, because your opponent is waiting to harass you)

Try it sometime. A good laner who captures 70% CS will still have a Medallion charged by about 13-15 minutes. Meaning, until you need your last item, you have 3 extra wards to carry, a move speed boost, and cheap CDR.

  1. I don't get Mag penetration every game, but I do make room for it. My team was ahead because I existed. A good Karma is a powerful thing.....

  2. My build is not AP or Tank or Support. It's Move speed. Move speed on Karma is how you win more games. You use that move speed to:

-Dodge skill shots point blank. -100% Secure W Second procs. -Get a larger kill participation -Adequately auto attack to proc your passive quicker -Charge Season 8 Celerity to add AP (Especially with Nimbus Cloak)

Lich bane, Censer, and Athene's are not contradictory. The support items are Stand alone. Give substantial amounts of AP, while fueling my move speed, increasing my shields, my heals (Athen's on these builds is something like a 90 AP item).

The goal of a Lich bane is and always HAS been to kill turrets, not champions. This build on average has about 385-440 AP by mid game. That chunks turrets pretty hard. It hurts champions too, but I do more damage in 5 seconds than a full AP Karma with 900 AP does, because I proc Lich. have AP boosts on move speed, which temporarily jump my AP up to 480-550.

I literally have 730-760 Move speed before considering Shurelya or R > E. it's an orber's dream.

P.S. If a game goes long enough to really consider needing a different build, I usually have 3-4k gold sitting around!

Hochelaga2 votes

{quoted}

Luls.

  1. I'm Diamond II on my actual account.

  2. Not on Medallion. Medallion suffers no consequences and gives you 10 extra base move speed, CDR, and even GOOD csers still only have about an average 60-70% Capture rate of CS. Bad Csers push 40-50%. You can also intentionally stack it, since Large minions are guaranteed to drop a coin. Just kill the small minions but leave the large ones to the coin. 50% of the time, it's Gold (Not saying it's perfect but you're going to lose some large ones anyways in competitive play, because your opponent is waiting to harass you)

Try it sometime. A good laner who captures 70% CS will still have a Medallion charged by about 13-15 minutes. Meaning, until you need your last item, you have 3 extra wards to carry, a move speed boost, and cheap CDR.

  1. I don't get Mag penetration every game, but I do make room for it. My team was ahead because I existed. A good Karma is a powerful thing.....

  2. My build is not AP or Tank or Support. It's Move speed. Move speed on Karma is how you win more games. You use that move speed to:

-Dodge skill shots point blank. -100% Secure W Second procs. -Get a larger kill participation -Adequately auto attack to proc your passive quicker -Charge Season 8 Celerity to add AP (Especially with Nimbus Cloak)

Lich bane, Censer, and Athene's are not contradictory. The support items are Stand alone. Give substantial amounts of AP, while fueling my move speed, increasing my shields, my heals (Athen's on these builds is something like a 90 AP item).

The goal of a Lich bane is and always HAS been to kill turrets, not champions. This build on average has about 385-440 AP by mid game. That chunks turrets pretty hard. It hurts champions too, but I do more damage in 5 seconds than a full AP Karma with 900 AP does, because I proc Lich. have AP boosts on move speed, which temporarily jump my AP up to 480-550.

I literally have 730-760 Move speed before considering Shurelya or R > E. it's an orber's dream.

P.S. If a game goes long enough to really consider needing a different build, I usually have 3-4k gold sitting around!

Then pls show me a game of Karma with that build in your Diamond II account and win a match because I have a major issue here trying to believe you.

You are completely hyping all the numbers up to make your build feel like it's the bomb.

Shurelia + your shield + all your bonus movespeed is in NO way going to bring you up to 730-750 movespeed uneless you're in base with that fountain speed boost.

Athene on theses buildis is not something like 90 AP, it's more like 60 HP with your ardent. Otherwise, athene alone gives 50 AP.

I still keep my argument saying that Medallion is major bad for you as a first item because not only you don't get any bonus when you kill cs, but you're penalised by having less HP, dmg and mana regen which is crucial during early game

Your team was not ahead because of you. You had less than 50% kill participation.

Your build was definetly support + tank. You had a Spirit visage which would provide tankiness and healing. You also had ardent censer which is a support item.

If you really wanted movespeed, you could have chosen Mobility boots or shurelia which you didn't get. Here, let me remind me your build for that game :

  1. Ninja Tabi -- TANK item
  2. Spirit Visage - TANK item
  3. Athene - SUPPORT 60 AP
  4. Ardent censer - SUPPORT 60 AP
  5. Lich bane - Offensive 80 AP
  6. Medallion - SUPPORT

If your main goal of getting lich bane was to kill towers, you got that item WAY to late to even do anything. And by the way, if you actually had Rabaddon, your auto attacks would even do more dmg to towers.

That W 100% secure doesn't mean anything. Smart ennemies can still get away from that link. I can't believe you said that when you're diamond.

You don't get larger kill participation with Karma when you have a lot of movespeed. You are generally always grouped with someone with Karma, so you'll automatically get kill participations.

How in the hell getting lich bane makes your recharge your passive quicker?? You still do a single auto attack reducing your mantra's cooldown. It's not because you hit him with that lich bane procs that it's going to make you recharge your passive quicker.

Doing the math, you barely got over 200 AP with that full build. in NO WAY you're about 385-440 AP like you said. That AP boost from your movespeed will basically give you 10-30 AP. You literally added about 100 AP in your calculations because of your movespeed.

With all that being said, I don't believe you

Illabethe1 votes

Have you ever EVER played Karma?

I'm not hyping numbers. She literally bursts up to 730 Move speed near full build, without activating surplus move speed bonuses. It decays quick enough, but that's where the burst gets up to.

I run around on a base 490-520 move speed. Celerity. Magical Footwear. Sometimes Medallion. Nimbus Cloak. items. It all stacks.

item 3174 + item 3504 + item 2065 = what base Mana Regen? Oh right..... 250%. That's 250/25 = 10 *5 AP = + 50 AP. Athene's Base AP is 30.

That puts the minimal amount at 80 AP. If I also go item 3311 and forgoe the Medallion (usually support) That's 90 AP.

The game in question you are referring to I was 11/2/20. Kills on my team were 58. That's 31/58 = What? Oh. 53.44%.

Who fed the most on the other team?

Oh Right. The mid Fizz I stomped, the Udyr I stomped, and the Kai Sai I stomped. Yeah. Zilean was probably a joke and my team did have an easy time of him. But it was me killing all the actual momentous champs.

Fizz kills: Compare My champion kill map to Fizz's Champion Death map. They are identical. Except reversed. The cluster in which I have a ton of kills, he has a ton of deaths. I had spread participation in all lanes down the river, but 7 of my kills were concentrated in Mid. Fizz on the other hand has 2 kills Bot lane, 1 kill mid, and one top. He died mid lane 9 times..... I was part of every single one of them.

I also First blooded Brand, and was part of every objective.

You're picking apart the one game where I don't have multiple move speed mage items to say I don't build move speed. You have to be adaptive to teams. In that game, I needed SV to counter fizz hard. That is all that is. Check my other Karma games.

Lich bane on mobility with Karma does more damage to a turret than a Death cap, is safer, more reliable. You can always try to come up with singular arguments within a whole, but it doesn't nothing to contradict the argument that I'm more well rounded, do more overall damage, and carry more than your builds do. You don't have room to build 7-8 items.

(I didn't need Lich bane except as an afterthought I was already winning hard).

How does a Fizz who has already Trickstered and can't break the leash or an Udyr who runs slower than you..... going to break the Leash? Oh. The only ways they can break it: Kill me. Which I won't let them.

I don't need to group as Karma. i solo her. I am not a E bot.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2908186473/243999882?tab=overview eh wth. I I'll record the part i'm talking about.

(Sorry I don't care about editing, headphones, whatever. This was this morning. Loss, but pretty much a 1v5 too)

https://youtu.be/Acnw2vMnqV4

The game we're talking about is buried on op.gg, so I can't tell what runes I was using, but......

  1. The AP items alone make up 180 AP.

  2. 20 AP from Sorcery/Insight (Net 200 AP)

Gathering Storm got up to +40 (Net 240 AP)

Some 27 AP in Celerity.

We had an Infernal Drake.

So...... Base of about 288 AP, and some 320 AP when E'd or R'd.

Hochelaga1 votes

{quoted}

Have you ever EVER played Karma?

I'm not hyping numbers. She literally bursts up to 730 Move speed near full build, without activating surplus move speed bonuses. It decays quick enough, but that's where the burst gets up to.

I run around on a base 490-520 move speed. Celerity. Magical Footwear. Sometimes Medallion. Nimbus Cloak. items. It all stacks.

item 3174 + item 3504 + item 2065 = what base Mana Regen? Oh right..... 250%. That's 250/25 = 10 *5 AP = + 50 AP. Athene's Base AP is 30.

That puts the minimal amount at 80 AP. If I also go item 3311 and forgoe the Medallion (usually support) That's 90 AP.

The game in question you are referring to I was 11/2/20. Kills on my team were 58. That's 31/58 = What? Oh. 53.44%.

Who fed the most on the other team?

Oh Right. The mid Fizz I stomped, the Udyr I stomped, and the Kai Sai I stomped. Yeah. Zilean was probably a joke and my team did have an easy time of him. But it was me killing all the actual momentous champs.

Fizz kills: Compare My champion kill map to Fizz's Champion Death map. They are identical. Except reversed. The cluster in which I have a ton of kills, he has a ton of deaths. I had spread participation in all lanes down the river, but 7 of my kills were concentrated in Mid. Fizz on the other hand has 2 kills Bot lane, 1 kill mid, and one top. He died mid lane 9 times..... I was part of every single one of them.

I also First blooded Brand, and was part of every objective.

You're picking apart the one game where I don't have multiple move speed mage items to say I don't build move speed. You have to be adaptive to teams. In that game, I needed SV to counter fizz hard. That is all that is. Check my other Karma games.

Lich bane on mobility with Karma does more damage to a turret than a Death cap, is safer, more reliable. You can always try to come up with singular arguments within a whole, but it doesn't nothing to contradict the argument that I'm more well rounded, do more overall damage, and carry more than your builds do. You don't have room to build 7-8 items.

(I didn't need Lich bane except as an afterthought I was already winning hard).

How does a Fizz who has already Trickstered and can't break the leash or an Udyr who runs slower than you..... going to break the Leash? Oh. The only ways they can break it: Kill me. Which I won't let them.

I don't need to group as Karma. i solo her. I am not a E bot.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2908186473/243999882?tab=overview eh wth. I I'll record the part i'm talking about.

(Sorry I don't care about editing, headphones, whatever. This was this morning. Loss, but pretty much a 1v5 too)

https://youtu.be/Acnw2vMnqV4

The game we're talking about is buried on op.gg, so I can't tell what runes I was using, but......

  1. The AP items alone make up 180 AP.

  2. 20 AP from Sorcery/Insight (Net 200 AP)

Gathering Storm got up to +40 (Net 240 AP)

Some 27 AP in Celerity.

We had an Infernal Drake.

So...... Base of about 288 AP, and some 320 AP when E'd or R'd.

To make it clear, i'm talking about the game you linked in your main comment.

You had NO shurelia or Frostfang. So let's forget that extra 30 AP you can get with Athene Game lasted 31 minutes. So I assume that you had 24 AP from gathering storm for most of your kills If you took celerity instead of transcendance, you literally just wasted 10% extra cooldown stats that's worth nothing

That AP value you claim is still being far ahead of the actual value even with infernal dragon.

Your AP MIGHT fluctuate with all those boosts from your shield, nimbus cloak etc. But that is the most unreliable AP you can get and you don't benefit from it again in a while.

In the game you just posted as a ''proof'' of your build, you BARELY used that lich bane auto attack which is literally the main goal of getting that item. Wasting stats again.

You were beyond tanky in that game, yet you stood behind most of the fight, shielding yourself instead of your allies and missed several Q's during the most important part of the teamfight.

The game you posted is literally on a silver 3-4-5 ELO rank. Post me something in diamond elo from your main account with that same build and see how you perform.

I have played over 2700 Ranked Karma games since season 2 and made it to master in season 6. So I do believe I know what i'm talking about saying this build might not work.

LilxPaprika1 votes

but what if you don't enjoy playing Karma?

Illabethe1 votes

Tough call.

I do find I enjoy her far more when combat is moving fast and I have to act fast though. Generally, I hate her when she's just a Q or E bot. So maybe there's also some discrepancies between how you play her too.

When I play her like I play her, She feels like a much.... better ...... Pyke. Unstoppable, constantly functional champ.

LilxPaprika1 votes

ya can't say I haven't had great times with her too. all the champs are playable fun wise, just sometimes you want a break from some. So I guess just queue up as different role, right. answered my own question

Illabethe1 votes

Pretty much. I generally jungle Karma or mid her. Not support. Support makes me want to hate her..... working around minion waves and adc poke designed to outpoke me. Easier to farm minions than farm pokes.

Bijeesny1 votes

You have only one game where you probably got lucky to get a bad fizz player. I would advise you to get more games playing her mid to claim shes indeed good against assassins.

Illabethe2 votes

Actually.... I chose her because I have done this matchup before, and went 24/0/9. Fizz can't do anything to a Mobility creep Karma, and neither can most of the roster. I've danced around and killed all the following champs without ever being at risk of dying.

Fizz Ezreal Graves Janna Jayce Jax Kaisa Karthus Kassadin Katarina Kayn Lux Lulu Malzahar MasterYi MissFortune Morgana Nami Nasus Nidalee Orianna Ornn Pyke Poppy Rakan Shen Shaco LeeSin Sejuani Sona Taliyah Teemo Taric Soraka Udyr Twitch Urgot Vi Veigar Warwick Zoe Zilean

None of these champs can viably shut down a speed Karma, because she can kite almost anything.

P.S. I specifically said AP Assassins. Barriers don't do much versus Zed, when Zed's ult works off pre-mitigation damage, and by the time the mark expires, your shield is down. The only way to really mitigate Zed is to heal up the best you can with Ult W, and then E yourself before the Mark Procs, to prevent some of its damage. Ofc Zhonyas, but that's not this kind of build.

I can toe to toe a Talon though (personal skill level; not every Karma can)

The reason you don't see a lot of Karma games is I rarely use her as support, and I rarely Mid. If I play Karma, it's usually Jungler, or Mid, and I have other junglers who don't incite my own team's suspicions and rage. (Although she's a phenomenal jungler with self sustain and awesome ganks)

Bijeesny1 votes

You can claim you beat as many champs as you want, but it doesnt help your claim. Again, you dont have any recent Karma games, so we cant see how consistently youre winning with that build.

And as some1 who has almost 500k on her I can say that this was just a lucky game. I can be wrong tho, but again, I have no proof to tell me otherwise.

This is similar to some guy who claimed tank Brand top is OP af cuz he lost the lane against one, and as a solid 'proof' linked Tilterella' s video where he played it on his smurf acc, and still had 55% winrate, with mediocre kda.

tl;dr you dont have enough evidence to prove your claim, and you just got lucky for all we know

EDIT: I just looked you up, your 2nd recent karma game, you lost against Diana.. so much for 'karma is good vs ap assassins'

Illabethe1 votes

Diana never killed me lol. I was laning vs Fiora, not Diana. Diana was top, and got hyper fed by an int feeding Talon who dove her 6 times in a row top lane as soon as he got to lane. Bot got shut out and fed a Kai Sa. not much of a game left when you're passively denying a Fiora, your top fed a DIana, and bot fed a Kai sa, and their Graves Jungler leeched kills off the inting talon and bad bot......

P.S. I have 1,739,720 Mastery on my Main account, 279,000 on my Season 7 account, 1,192,008 on my Season 4-5 Account, and 890,114 on my Season 6 account. Season 4-6 are banned :S.

Pillar Of SaIt1 votes

I wish painful death upon all Karma players

Illabethe1 votes

Why XD? Because she can pubstomp Pyke, and about half the champ roster if her team even barely exists?

Just wait. She's about to become even more fun to deal with (I'll surpass 820 move speed with the new Celerity)

Strawberrycocoa1 votes

Karma's getting another rework? Argh, why?

Illabethe1 votes

From what I've seen, it's not a bad one. She's basically going to have the same skills, but W is going to have a third option (tethering Allies to reduce their cooldowns and restore some mana), and Q's R damage is going to mostly be on the first hit, instead of the second, and her E changes seem ambiguous to me.

What I REALLY like: Her Passive is now also going to work on Large/Epic Monsters. I already jungle her. Her Mantra will cooldown on camps. So this is going to be even easier. She's going to be a Drake threat too.... since the encounter will reduce her R cooldown, and W will self sustain her better than a Warwick.....

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