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excuse me, but doesnt jayce have the same problem as lane alistar used to have?

Critmaster Garen··9 votes·1,202 views

remember when alistar was changed to automatically execute an auto attack after his headbutt? people used that by running sheen on him and repeatedly trading with their opponents by headbutting them away in lane, dealing significant damage every time that couldnt be dodged or avoided, while making it impossible to trade back.

alistar was quickly nerfed because of this interaction.

now my question is, how does that differ from jayce repeatedly trading with his q + max health damage knockback nuke in hammer form? shouldnt something be done about this ability before he receives any buffs?

just. make it somehow conditional so its possible to play around that instead of getting point and click nuked with a gapcloser + knockback.

you could give him the nidalee treatment and have him require to hit you with his q in cannon form before he can get the knockback on his e in hammer form on you (he can still have the damage either way, just not the knockback).

this would also give him a window of weakness to get engaged on in cannon form when he misses his poke. he doesnt get a 100% reliable disengage.

11 Comments

AgentBlack2 votes

Er, no, because Jayce's E has a 15s cooldown for most of the game and not particularly impressive damage, on top of the fact that it's his only reliable escape/disengage and he's highly vulnerable to ganks/all-ins without it.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

Er, no, because Jayce's E has a 15s cooldown for most of the game and not particularly impressive damage, on top of the fact that it's his only reliable escape/disengage and he's highly vulnerable to ganks/all-ins without it.

except he also has the mobility from his gate to work with.

and i wouldnt call up to 20% max health damage +1.0 ad "not impressive".

yes, its a reliable disengage, but does nobody else see this as an issue on a long range poke champ? why should he get a get out of jail free card in case he gets caught?

ChíckenDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gHoqpNNf,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-08-09T22:01:14.241+0000)

except he also has the mobility from his gate to work with.

and i wouldnt call up to 20% max health damage +1.0 ad "not impressive".

yes, its a reliable disengage, but does nobody else see this as an issue on a long range poke champ? why should he get a get out of jail free card in case he gets caught?

Although what your saying would apply to late game jayce, it's only a theoretical problem in the laning phase, and in lane it's only doing 8%hp dameg and is subject by a high cooldown and jayce having a mana problem. also while this changes if you max e early your doing something wrong if you do.

but even as a jayce player I do admit he is really overloaded and doesn't have any real problems if your good enough with him other then his mana and a weakish lv6-8 if your behind.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Although what your saying would apply to late game jayce, it's only a theoretical problem in the laning phase, and in lane it's only doing 8%hp dameg and is subject by a high cooldown and jayce having a mana problem. also while this changes if you max e early your doing something wrong if you do.

but even as a jayce player I do admit he is really overloaded and doesn't have any real problems if your good enough with him other then his mana and a weakish lv6-8 if your behind.

the high cooldown is not an issue, as he can usually sit on it until his opponent tries to force a trade. while its 15 secons and 8% at rank 1, he usually maxes the ability second. so after a couple of levels it really starts to hurt.

and actually, thinking about it, no one is preventing him from maxing the ability first. its not unreasonable considering how reliable he can outtrade opponents with it.

AgentBlack2 votes

Jayce maxes Q first and generally W second, so your escape options in lane are a 30% decaying haste and a ~300 unit knockback, both on a 15s cooldown. Your hammer E also only deals 8% maximum health damage until you rank it up, which is lackluster against typical beefy top laners; who are also usually melee, thus much faster than you, and can either attempt to re-engage after you knock them away or just engage again before your only survivability tools come off CD. On top of that, a lot of Jayce's damage is wrapped up in the E cooldowns, making it hard to trade effectively while saving them, and the hammer E only helps him escape one person, so he's fucked in ganks.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Jayce maxes Q first and generally W second, so your escape options in lane are a 30% decaying haste and a ~300 unit knockback, both on a 15s cooldown. Your hammer E also only deals 8% maximum health damage until you rank it up, which is lackluster against typical beefy top laners; who are also usually melee, thus much faster than you, and can either attempt to re-engage after you knock them away or just engage again before your only survivability tools come off CD. On top of that, a lot of Jayce's damage is wrapped up in the E cooldowns, making it hard to trade effectively while saving them, and the hammer E only helps him escape one person, so he's fucked in ganks.

even if jayce maxes q first, and the e last, the knockback on the ability is still an issue.

it doesnt solve the problem that jayce can use it to avoid interaction in lane just by sitting back and relaxing with long range pokes, and knocking his opponent back and running away when he makes a mistep. it makes him too forgiving to play to allow him to be a strong champion imo.

if the knockback were more conditional and you could somehow avoid it as his opponent, it wouldnt be that much of an issue.

but as it is, he has the same issue as lane nidalee used to have. passive play with long range poke spam, and too slippery when he makes a mistep and is caught out, creates low risk, high reward play.

nidalee used to spam spears throughout the entire lane phase and switch into cougar form to run away when she got ganked or caught out of position. its pretty much the same with jayce.

so either way. if he focuses on a fighter build with his q and e to trade, or if he focuses on a long range poke build, his playstile is toxic. mostly thanks to the 100% reliable knockback in hammer stance.

AgentBlack2 votes

He can't use it to avoid interaction. Trundle, Gragas, Riven, Fiora and co. barely care about Jayce's 300 unit knock back, because they're faster and have reliable engage on generally shorter cooldowns, letting them either stick to him through the knock back or re-engage before it comes off CD. If he's forced to use both E cooldowns to disengage, he then loses every trade or dies to every gank for the next 15s. It's in no way comparable to Nidalee because his poke is more expensive, gated by two cooldowns, and he's too slow and has too high cooldowns on his disengage to easily survive ganks; especially in the longer top lane.

R FLASH XD2 votes

renekton dashes in stuns you and dashes out, so does riven, he's not the only one who does dirty shit like this

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Horny Flamingo,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gHoqpNNf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-08-10T04:13:29.415+0000)

renekton dashes in stuns you and dashes out, so does riven, he's not the only one who does dirty shit like this

at least you can dodge renektons dash. there is one point in time where you can react to his trade, as small as it is.

jayce q and e are direct targeted abilities that are entirely unavoidable.

Lovelle1 votes

Jayce doesn't have Renekton's early damage with little to no items though. He needs both damage and levels in order to have any mid game presence. Plenty of champions can out-trade him if he tries to go in before he's finished an item. Plenty of champions can out-duel him past the laning phase. If the Jayce is running an armor pen only build, his late game is going to be mediocre at best anyway. He is a lot harder to itemize than Renekton or pretty much any top lane bruiser, since he actually has to make trade-offs. He's pretty much a less snowbally Quinn, but with a slightly better late game than her.

There are a lot more obnoxious ranged top laners that have emerged since Jayce's release.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

i gotta love his E doing 40% of my health as damage

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