The QSS nerf is a lever for balancing Zed in the future

Wolfeur·Apr 21, 2016·61 votes·7,325 views

Zed has to get some strength besides his ult because otherwise, he would have nothing. You buy and he becomes useless.

Now that in not a problem for Zed, Riot can find good ways to balance him, probably by nerfing his poke or waveclear. It's the same for . It's a balancing lever.

But don't expect these changes soon. Riot still needs to think about what and how he should be nerfed. Yes, he will be OP for a time, but it is a necessary evil for getting the game balanced.

66 Comments

Guy Fox TeemoApr 21, 201616 votes

Theres also going to be a huge meta shift in the next patch (all the mage changes, dragons, etc.)

For all we know he could be shit in the new meta.

Tik115Apr 22, 20161 votes

I doubt the mage update is going to be substantial enough to shift the meta, and even then more mages mid = more targets for Zed especially with the Zhonyas nerf.

Unless every mage is Viktor rework levels of strong Zed will still be a good pick, hell He'd be a good pick even then due to lack of weakness, screw it, unless everybody is a tank with good waveclear Zed will always be a good pick

Pierce The VealApr 22, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Guy Fox Teemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEtKtWY5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-04-21T21:10:36.758+0000)

Theres also going to be a huge meta shift in the next patch (all the mage changes, dragons, etc.)

For all we know he could be shit in the new meta.

I'm just waiting for the fiddle changes.

You know shit's going down when someone who quit Fiddlesticks for 2 years is picking him back up again

mason waterApr 22, 20161 votes

who?

Pierce The VealApr 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

who?

;_;

manbearswineApr 21, 20168 votes

Honestly,I'm fine with qss not working on zed to make zed's power curve less dumb.

I am not fine with fucking over so many other interactions which are completely fair just because of zed,you want zed not to be effected by qss? fine,add a line to zeds R saying "Death mark can only be removed by death" and call it a day,do not fuck over completely sensible interactions just because you want to make a change to one champion,this is soraka all over again.

WolfeurApr 21, 20165 votes

It's not only about Zed. Zed is just a prime example of a kit that has a balance problem around the fact that QSS can easily nullify it. Riot said that the change aims at allowing the use of powerful debuffs without the fear of it getting cleansed, destroying all interactions.

manbearswineApr 21, 20167 votes

{quoted}

It's not only about Zed.

Except that it is.

Zed is just a prime example of a kit that has a balance problem around the fact that QSS can easily nullify it.

No,otherwise it wouldn't work on malzharss/warwicks/skarners ults either,this is only about zed,nobody else. Fiora and trundle(the other champions mentioned) can simply ult a different target which is subpar,which is fair,zed once mid gets zhonyas and the adc gets qss,doesn't have much options,don't buy into riot's BS,this is all 100% about zed,same as the gw change was all about soraka.

Riot said that the change aims at allowing the use of powerful debuffs without the fear of it getting cleansed, destroying all interactions.

And you think cc is any different? You think skraner isn't fucked over by qss? Why wouldn't they just remove qss completely then? This is all about zed,all of it,and that's fine,just don't fuck over perfectly fine interactions because zed's interaction with it isn't fine.

WolfeurApr 21, 20163 votes

I honestly think suppression should not be cleansable, so that Malz, Urgot, WW and Skarner aren't fucked by one item.

The CC removal is a difficult discussion. What is a CC exactly? If CC means having reduced actions options, then slows and AS slows are not CC, like damage reduction, but death would be.

manbearswineApr 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I honestly think suppression should not be cleansable, so that Malz, Urgot, WW and Skarner aren't fucked by one item.

If they decide to do that I will see where it goes,it's especially convenient since you can easily reclassify things from suppression to a stun depending on how you want this interaction to work.

Thing is,take warwick for example,in most teamcomps you'll have a guy with cc that can interrupt him quickly,but sometimes you don't have that,and I think that qss should be an option for these scenarios.

The CC removal is a difficult discussion. What is a CC exactly? If CC means having reduced actions options, then slows and AS slows are not CC, like damage reduction, but death would be.

Look,the thing is,and logic behind these changes has nothing to do with cc,qss should remove all debuffs except those where the fact they can be removed harms the game,and each of those can be looked at a case by case basis,for example for zed's ultimate debuff arguably causes an unhealthy power curve,in contrast removing trynd's ad reduction(from his shout),or nasus wither(attack speed reduction part) is as fair as removing lux's snare,there is no reason to make it remove only cc because cc isn't a lower priority than debuffs and there should be an option against debuffs as well,just arguably against debuffs like zed that option shouldn't be so effective.

ImmortalBloodCYApr 22, 20161 votes

They should have just made it remove either Hard CC or Soft CC. If they want an item to remove some ultimate's like Zed/Fizz/Fiora they should just make that item that both AP and AD can use.

Hard CC=Stun and the like.(anything that makes your champion interactive for a few seconds) Soft CC= slow and the like.(anything that slows down your champion for a few seconds)

SirHeavyScrotumApr 22, 20161 votes

I think you're missing the point of what the qss changes are, they're making it so that it only removes CC. It's not gonna be a patch that says "all debuffs are removed except for zed ult l0l"

Espy PsycheApr 21, 20166 votes

You have bans. Use them. Zed will get fixed faster if he has 100% ban rate.

WolfeurApr 21, 201626 votes

Actually, a champion that is perma-banned can't be fixed properly because, since he's never played, no one knows why he's banned.

PennsApr 21, 20164 votes

Id say a champion is perma banned because hes fr33lo lel

RoodToobApr 21, 20165 votes

Yes but it takes so long to fix them because they don't have the numbers to see what they want to nerf to put the champion in line. Its why Kassadin took so long in s3-s4. They didn't know what to nerf

PennsApr 22, 20162 votes

I mean, if a champ is banned/ first picked all the time in competitive play and soloq, you might just wanna nerf something instead of waiting a year lol.

And apart from that, if a champ suddely starts being permaban/pick after a certain patch... you know.

RoodToobApr 22, 20161 votes

They did nerf something with Kassadin at least, my point was they didn't know what to nerf. So they were nerfing to no end. just making the champ weaker (which was still fine) without actually changing much. Since no champion is near that level of power, I can understand being patient and waiting to see what is best to nerf instead of just trying things

AvatarRoku22Apr 22, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Yes, he will be OP for a time

do you mean to tell me I've been playing against the non op version of zed for 2 years? flips desk

KapppaccinoApr 22, 20162 votes

Lol

TheRoyalAsianDikMay 5, 20161 votes

Hahaha!

AlwaysByMySideApr 21, 20164 votes

QSS shouldn't remove Trundle's ult. Otherwise we get dumb shit like Maokai building QSS top lane because there happens to be a Trundle on the enemy team.

This happens in really high level play, and IIRC the LCS.

The same is probably also true of Fiora.

420 StylishApr 22, 20164 votes

Woah, it's almost as if you have a brain and instead of throwing an autistic fit of rage over every change Riot attempts you actually attempt to understand their reasoning and the positives behind the change. That's not allowed on the forums.

Yes, I'm a Zed main. Bring in my downvotes because I enjoy playing a champion.

KapppaccinoApr 22, 20161 votes

Riven is better ;)

MooninitesApr 22, 20164 votes

the idea that we have to remove all counter-play to a champion and make them gamebreakingly overpowered simply so we can balance that champion at a later point is utter garbage

DREADN0UGHTApr 21, 20163 votes

THANK YOU!! God! People overreact so much with this shit it made me cringe! When I saw they were removing the debuff effect from QSS, and people complaining about Zed, I fkin KNEW there was something good to come out from it.

Now we can actually see some real balancing being done around Zed, and the same goes with Vlad and fkin WotA... What is the point of balancing a champ around a damn item?

MarshbouyApr 22, 20162 votes

finally someone realizes it. now they can nerf his damages without him being shit late game if someone builds QSS

63536895_DELApr 22, 20162 votes

It's the same for . It's a balancing lever.

Righhhhht, what trade off was there for this amazing synergy item for Zed again? I can't recall any balancing taking place since this item was introduced.

Icestar1186Apr 22, 20163 votes

They nerfed his ult when the item was released.

63536895_DELApr 22, 20163 votes

It was a stone thrown at a god, not really an appropriate nerf for how good the item is on him. Zed lost 5% stored damage, and gained 90 + 25% missing health damage. Just the base damage on the item passive makes up for the ult nerf on its own. Overall the addition of the item was a massive buff to him.

HazyCloud7Apr 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Death LoL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEtKtWY5,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-04-22T02:22:10.121+0000)

Righhhhht, what trade off was there for this amazing synergy item for Zed again? I can't recall any balancing taking place since this item was introduced.

His deathmark damage was reduced by 5% at each rank. Not really a big nerf by any means. As someone who enjoys playing Zed, I still don't understand why they introduced duskblade. AD assassins weren't even in a bad spot before the item was added.

SirHeavyScrotumApr 22, 20161 votes

High level zed players don't even build that item and his highest win rate build doesn't include it. Zed doesn't always auto attack his target and the item is kinda trash anyway since you can't control it and it has a massive cooldown. You assumed that that item buffed zed without actually knowing if it did.

63536895_DELApr 22, 20161 votes

I'm looking at Champion.gg right now and Zed's highest win rate build has Duskblade as his second item...............

You assumed that that item buffed zed without actually knowing if it did.

The only one assuming things here is you. It's well know and obvious that Duskblade buffed Zed. The item is trash without the passive? It's almost 100% gold efficient without the passive and gives Zed all the stast he wants Damage, Movespeed, and Armor Pen.

SaiannaApr 22, 20162 votes

I guess "new" incoming Zhyona is also Zed balance lever.. right -.-?

Oh and Viktor Nerfs.

AuryielApr 22, 20162 votes

Meanwhile Soraka getting nerfs even though GW's changes are gonna be huge nerfs to her because the new Athene's is expected to benefit her

SirHeavyScrotumApr 22, 20162 votes

Yeah the long term game health will benefit from qss not becoming a catch all item vs some champions. They can actually balance them on an even playing field rather than balancing them on the field of "have to make sure they're not destroyed by qss, have to make sure they're not too strong if you can't get a qss." The people whining about Zed being OP without live qss are honestly short sighted. Great to see someone else who sees this as a good thing!

majulitoApr 22, 20162 votes

I think saying qss made zed useless is an overstatement. Building an mr to counter a physical damage dealer is dumb. People seem to disregard the fact that he still does damage to you with e q and aa and forced you to blow a valuable cds and most likely forced you out of a fight and thats if he hasn't killed you already. Zed can kill people without the damage part of his ult. Just him getting another gapcloser/escape/dodge is sometimes enough for him to delete someone and get out.

AMYS GRAVEApr 22, 20161 votes

Zed has to get some strength besides his ult because otherwise, he would have nothing.

The rest of zed's kit is pretty damn strong. There was an lcs game (i dont recall which game) where their mid lane zed went the entire game without ulting. They won handily because he got camped and never died because of zeds safety. Late game he split push them to death but either didn't get answered or the tank answered.

Kuroi86Apr 22, 20161 votes

Zed is strong, but it sounds like they won that game due to poor tactics from the opposing team. There are better lanes to camp than Zeds, and if someone is going to answer a split push, it should be a bruiser or tanky mage who can weather Zeds damage and push back, a tank simply doesn't have the damage to out push a Zed late game.

AMYS GRAVEApr 22, 20161 votes

yeah, iirc they just got out comped and had no answer to zed, so when they failed to shut him down early they just lost.

FastAsHeckApr 22, 20161 votes

My only fear is that champions like Kalista and Leblanc who were also countered by QSS in some degree will slip unnoticed and get stronger. Also I wonder what the interaction with Last Breath will be (you can currently QSS it, I don't know if you will be able to)

WolfeurApr 22, 20162 votes

Last breath can by cleansed, since it's a suspension, but I think you still get the damage.

RocketRelmApr 22, 20161 votes

Meanwhile, preemptive nerf hammahs for lots of other champions that get 'potential buffs' through things such as the mastery system, or the item system.

How long are we going to wait for these 'nerfs' to be implemented?

J EevoApr 22, 20161 votes

I don't get how Duskblade is a good balancing lever for Zed. For other assassins, maybe, if you want them to rely on it for assassination then sure, but so far that's not working out. And as for duskblade Zed, it just makes his Death mark so much more obnoxious because the first explosion fuels the second which makes even bad attempts work out.

The pain of seeing duskblade explode and suddenly gaining the "you're dead now" marker of deathmark is real.

alfavhunterApr 22, 20161 votes

Simple nerf to zed

Remove damage amp on his R but it attaches a living shadow to the enemy champion for 4/seconds, jumping to this shadow is done by reactivating R and can be done at an energy cost of 30/20/10 with no CD until the 4 seconds is up

This gives zed more mobility while cutting out the damage

He keeps the momentary target drop, he keeps the jump on target, and he can jump back on them because a shadow is attached to them

He loses the damage after X seconds but gets much more reliable sticking power to his chosen target

Nameless VoiceApr 22, 20161 votes

I think a large part of the problem that people have is the unfairness of the balance team.

Most people hate playing against Zed and feel he's an unhealthy champion. Riot despond by removing some of his direct counters, with the aim of potentially making him more balanceable later.

However, when other champions were strong, such as Soraka mid, lane Lulu, Eve mid, AP Ezreal with Runeglaive, various others - which people also hated, they were quickly gutted until they were unviable, and then later, reworked to be more healthy (I guess.)

Personally (and I'm very sure a lot of you will disagree with this last), I find Zed less fun to play against than I ever found any of those above champions, yet he's the one who's allowed to remain there, to be very slowly reworked/buffed rather than gutted to take him out of the game until they can fix him properly.

EggyoohApr 23, 20161 votes

The ADC role's gaming experience is going to further decrease, there is already so many nerfs to ADC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP3MvKkYYH8

LordGeovanniApr 23, 20161 votes

why cant he be nerfed like Aatrox and Yorick to the point where their own skills or stats are detrimental to them because people who know how to use their strengths do well

TheRoyalAsianDikMay 5, 20161 votes

Ok, let me leave my 2 cents on here. So I understand that QSS is a huge disadvantage for Zed, and I do understand and totally support a nerf on QSS BUT, why patch the QSS nerf before they balance the Zed? I honestly feel it is stupid to nerf QSS now and then wait for a year (exaggeration) for them to balance Zed. Now I know some of you may say, "Because they need to collect data on how to balance zed, and test it blah blah blah." I totally understand that too but what difference does it make to nerf QSS now? Just don't nerf the Goddamn thing right now, Zed is going to be perma banned anyway. I am sure they have enough data on zed to know what to balance and even IF they HAVE to nerf QSS to understand and figure how to balance Zed, do it on the PBE. All I am saying is; Go ahead, nerf QSS and balance Zed but patch them together FFS. Now wtf is the adc or heck any other champion other than mages (zhonya) supposed to do when they get ulted? Honestly feel its a little stupid to patch the nerfed QSS now. Anyway, if I am unaware or ignorant of some facts that I have missed I do sincerely apologize. Perma ban zed now that I main adc.

ΙreIiaSep 7, 20161 votes

Removin item 3140 on zed ult is a bad thing... he wasnt balanced either his god damn q deals already half your hp... his ult kills you anyway so riot should put it back.. after all 2000 damage is a debuff.. rito pls nerf zed :/