How would you nerf the following

IP Masquerena·Apr 10, 2019·2 votes·2,843 views

So we always see the "Nerf Riven, gut Vayne" threads, but we never see a solution given by the OP.

So here's my challenge, I name you 5 champs and you have to post how you would nerf them, directly or indirectly.

The main condition: your nerf shouldn't be more than a 5% win rate loss. Basically, nerf but don't gut.

Yasuo, Zed, Riven, Jax and Vayne.

38 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerApr 10, 20193 votes

..... You do realize a 5% reduction in win rate is incredibly huge right?

IP MasquerenaApr 10, 20191 votes

Yes, but for some with around 55 on tracking sites it brings them to 49 so it can be ok. Plus, I said the max is 5%, so lowering them by say 2-3 also works

Mr Bob BobersonApr 10, 20193 votes

Yasuo Even though i main him I'd like to see some nerfs, Maybe get rid of his double crit He'd do less damage and would have to be played more skillfully to be effective, and he could have more diverse builds

Zed I'd like to see him in line with other Assassins where he's powerful early game but falls off late So in that case i'd like to see the damage dealt scaling stay at 25% throughout the game, Maybe even go up to 30% at level 16 With the cost of lowering it to 20% at level 6

Riven A simple solution would be to reduce her E scaling, Or make it a flat out base state rather than a scaling state Or reduce some of her execute damage

Jax Make it so his E only makes him take reduced damage from autos rather than take none, Or even reduce his Q range or the damage on his R

Vayne Either remove the bonus AD or revert the cooldown buff

ModWulf HelhammerApr 11, 20193 votes

Well since I've commented on other's, figured I should throw my hat in the ring.

And, uh, apologies now for just a monstrous nightmare of a post length. Can't really do a TL;DR here, as each section is its own thing...

(disclaimer: I consider most of these champs pretty balanced as they currently are. However, as it would be against the spirit of the post to just say "don't do anything", I'm going to be making changes I feel would be the best if something had to be changed)

##Yasuo By far the one I consider the most balanced on the list. Changes I would make are light, focusing more on external feel rather than any actual balance difference.

Decrease Windwall size at higher ranks.
Remove auto-placement when ulting near turrets. Instead, it simply puts you where your cursor is, similar to Kai'Sa ult. This allows players to still express skill in where they end up (such as avoiding turret range or putting yourself behind the enemy so they can't escape) without immediately granting it to them.

##Zed Yeah this one is pretty much fine with what's on the PBE.

##Riven So this one is a bit tricky, as the balance issues that have come about recently are not actually from Riven individually, but rather the meta (items and runes) around her. I will be addressing some changes I think could be done to some of those things in later sections, but for now, I'll suggest the one thing I think could be done for Riven.

Decrease the amount of time a passive charge is stored for. This is to encourage her to be all about the constant in-and-out small trades, rather then readying up before hand and then going in. You have to have fast actions to take advantage of them, or else they're lost. The goal of this is hopefully to move her back towards the bursty, more assassin like builds that were around back with Thunderlord's Decree, as those help to emphasize her weaknesses of losing in longer trades.

##Jax This guy. I'm gonna try here, but my personal bias may end up showing through still and I swing too hard at him (I really do not like playing against Jax). This one is gonna be a sub-list. I don't think all of these should be done, but at least one of them I think would be a good idea.

Counter Strike: either... a) remove the complete negation of auto attack damage, instead going to the same reduced damage as AoE (25%), with perhaps more reduction if necessary. b) remove the AoE damage reduction, so that while he can dodge auto attacks completely, he still takes full damage from AoE, making that the intended counter to the ability. c) remove the increased damage from the ability for things dodged. d) if reactivated early, it does the minimum damage of the ability. d) Jax can no longer attack while the ability is active.

Vayne

This one is gonna be pretty simple. Any additional change would be done by items.

Reduce/remove the CDR refund for using Tumble during Final Hour at early ranks, scaling up to the current value at max rank.
Reduce the amount of AD she gets from Final Hour at early ranks, scaling to current values at max rank.

On to items! ##Spear of Shojin I have a couple different ideas that this item could go in, depending on what the ideal use case for this item should be, so this section's points are more of options, not a detailed list.

If the idea is for the item to be more for bruisers that want a longer, drawn out fight, rather then an instant kill mode, then lower the AD, increase the health, and increase the cooldown on the passive
If the item is for more bursty, light fighters (which I think are technically called slayers) then lower the health, increase the AD, still increase the cooldown on the passive.
An additional idea would be to possibly make the item itself an active, rather then a passive effect. This would allow a greater usage case, as it's open to almost all bruisers and fighters, and not just the ones that have an empowered mode ult. However, you could then run into issues that the item is too open-ended and not as limited in it's usage (and then the problem that people just tend not to use active items as much)

Guinsoo's Rageblade

Alright, I'll admit it. Phantom hit was a larger contributor to the imbalance of the item then what I had always thought (I always held that it was the stacking stats effect that really made the item broken so often). However, I do still think that the effect is an interesting one, and could still have a place in the game. Changes for this one a bit harder, as it's already remarkably gold-inefficient with just the base stats on the item (although that's rectified once it's stacked up), so you can't really nerf those without changing the recipe or cost of the item. There's really only one thing that comes to mind that could maybe help, but I'm not entirely sure how exactly you would apply this.

Essentially, bring the Phantom Hit part back to it's Sated Devourer roots. How it would work is that you would still get the ramping up attack speed (and maybe throw in the armor and magic penetration so that it's not entirely worthless early on). HOWEVER, you wouldn't have access to the Phantom Hit yet. That would require farming up to some x number of something, most likely minion kills, plus a higher amount for champion take downs. Once that threshold was reached, then you get Phantom Hit at max stacks. This number would of course be much higher then the 30 it was back on Devourer, but the important thing is that the #EndGameFantasy of on-hit champions does indeed not happen until the late game. Rushing the item would surely get you the best head start on getting your stacks to build up that power. On the downside, it is undoubtedly an incredibly weak item to rush, as its stats are just shitty. This helps to create the trade-offs that are necessary for good balance. Double down on early(er) late game? You pay for that with a much weaker early. Want to coast through early game with more supportive items like lifesteal or raw stats? Well then you will take longer to reach your true late game power level.

IP MasquerenaApr 11, 20191 votes

Wery well written post, and don't worry, as long as the post is written nicely I enjoy reading walls of text.

I fully agree with you. gives a cookie

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

LiberalWithFactsApr 10, 20192 votes

the only one i would try and make a case for is vayne, maybe revert her q during ult cd or the fact she can extend her ult but i have a hard time making a case for anything else she can take over late game team fights no doubt but if you don't int her in lane shes not too oppressing in the mid game

OtterlyLostApr 10, 20192 votes

Yasuo

Rework his windfall; reduce the CD but make it smaller and have it break after so many projectiles hit it, scaling up with the number of points have been put into it.

Zed

Remove the bonus magic damage he gets from AA low health targets. Raise his ults CD.

Riven

Remove Spear of Shojin as it is giving her an insane amount of artificial power.

Jax

Take away his ward hopping capabilities. Seriously, all that frustrates me about Jax is the amount of safety get gets.

Vayne

Oh boy.

Raise the CD of tumble at all ranks. Lower the AD bonus it gives. Turn her silver bolts into flat true damage. Take away the % health. Remove the reset on her ult and lower the stealth duration that her tumble gives.

Soul DealerApr 10, 20191 votes

Yasuo is fine, the zed nerfs on pbe solve his problem, get rid of spear and riven + Jax are fine, get rid of Vayne’s percent max hp true damage it’s unhealthy.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 10, 20191 votes

get rid of Vayne’s percent max hp true damage it’s unhealthy.

So then what is the point of picking Vayne? That's her intended niche. She's a target agnostic duelist that will kill anything if she gets enough time at it

Soul DealerApr 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAEJvfgU,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-10T17:18:52.790+0000)

So then what is the point of picking Vayne? That's her intended niche. She's a target agnostic duelist that will kill anything if she gets enough time at it

Giver her another nice. The same thing goes for Fiora or pretty much any champ with built in true damage. True damage should not be in the game, it’s unhelathy and needs to be removed.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 10, 20191 votes

And what is the reason for that? Why is it unhealthy?

Soul DealerApr 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAEJvfgU,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T17:21:19.391+0000)

And what is the reason for that? Why is it unhealthy?

It’s unhealthy because there is no way to counter it.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 10, 20191 votes

The point of true damage is that there's no major counter to it (more specifically in the case of Fiora and Vayne's %HP, as they aren't supposed to care about who they're hitting, it will deal about the same percentage of damage).

Soul DealerApr 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAEJvfgU,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T17:34:49.997+0000)

The point of true damage is that there's no major counter to it (more specifically in the case of Fiora and Vayne's %HP, as they aren't supposed to care about who they're hitting, it will deal about the same percentage of damage).

And that is unhealthy. You need a way to play against something or it’s unfair. Just look at the true stealth Akali had, it was contentedly unfair so it was removed.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 10, 20191 votes

The counterplay is that you bring multiple people, don't engage them one on one.

Not everything needs counterplay directly to the other party. Macro counterplay is just as important and just as viable. Lane management, proper ganking and flanking, etc.

Soul DealerApr 10, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAEJvfgU,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T17:47:01.390+0000)

The counterplay is that you bring multiple people, don't engage them one on one.

Not everything needs counterplay directly to the other party. Macro counterplay is just as important and just as viable. Lane management, proper ganking and flanking, etc.

Then explain to me why everything in the game has some sort of direct counterplay except for true damage. True damage in unhelathy and needs to be removed. Ask anyone they will agree, just look at the boards there are tons of posts about how true damage is unhealthy and how there is too much of it.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 10, 20191 votes

Plenty of things don't. Spells like Trundle ult, Zed ult, auto attacks, direct targeted spells.

In any case, True damage is specifically designed that it is above all else something that is harder to counter. It's the great equalizer.

And sure, you could have a problem that there's too much true damage. You'll find people that agree and disagree with that.

But that's not what you're saying. You're saying that it simply shouldn't exist. That's something else entirely.

SaezioApr 10, 20191 votes

She should be strong vs people that stack armor and HP, she shouldn't be bursting squishies though.

She is also intended to be a late game carry, atm she reaches her late game fantasy at 2 items+ boots.

Remove her interaction with Rageblade and she should be way healthier.

IP MasquerenaApr 10, 20191 votes

I agree on Riven and Jax, the Spear needs removed.

I don't agree on Vayne tho

Jimmy RustlesApr 10, 20191 votes

Yasuo : Really wouldn't touch much, maybe give Windwall a HP bar like Yoricks W that increases with rank

Zed : Reduce base damage of Q but increase the damage of multiple Q's landing, would make him higher skill requirements

Riven : Reduce the bonus damage if her Ults execute OR reduce the scaling on her shield

Jax : Reduce the AoE reduction on his counter strike and possibly reduce the damage on his R proc

Vayne : Remove the bonus AD if they want to keep the CD reduction and remove the increased duration of it by getting kills OR only let the first kill increase its duration

I'm not a rapper

Salvor HardınApr 10, 20191 votes

Vayne
Pasive: Movement speed when moving towards a nearby Sight icon visible enemy champion from 30 to 25 Q: Cooldown changed from: 4 / 3.5 / 3 / 2.5 / 2 to 5 / 4.5 / 4 / 3.5 / 3

Riven
E: Shield Strength reduced from 95 / 125 / 155 / 185 / 215 (+ 100% bonus AD) to 100 / 130 / 160 / 190 / 220 (+ 70% bonus AD)

Yasuo W: Bugfix, Windwall no longer stops projectiles from the sides.

Zed nerf in PBE is fine I think.

IP MasquerenaApr 10, 20191 votes

I like the Riven ones, gj

SaezioApr 10, 20191 votes

Remove SoS Make rageblade not interract with Vayne's W.

See how it goes from there.

IP MasquerenaApr 10, 20191 votes

Rage Blade isn't the only thing that Silver Bolts has to stop interacting with.

Ravenous Hunter as well, but I guess that's out of the equation as all spells interact with it, unless I'm missing something.

RH is part of why her lane phase is so good, the healing is dope, Rhaast levels.

SaezioApr 10, 20191 votes

Ravenous needs to stop being so fucking busted and a necessity. It's like 8/10 non-supports in pro pick it(unless conqueror), I wonder why.

Some champions' weakness is supposed to be their lack of sustain, ravenous covers that shit too well, either make it 0-2% at 0 stacks OR make it proc on champions only

IP MasquerenaApr 11, 20191 votes

2% at 0 stacks? Want it buffed?

Heal for 1.5% (+ 2.5% per Bounty Hunter stack) of the damage dealt by your abilities, on-hit effects and items, up to 14% at 5 stacks.

The main reason is the on hit effects, remove that and keep the rune as a caster thing and it will fix a bunch of it's issues, could even be buffed a little as many mages are AoE and the rune has the general drain AoE diminish, as many mages don't spec into domination anyway, it can be a nice "need a bit more safety early" thing and stops it from being taken so much.

SyrileApr 10, 20191 votes

I like this challenge. :)

Yasuo

Remove Windwall entirely. Give him an ability that can block projectiles for 0.75 seconds. If he blocks a projectile with this ability, he gains a damage boost for the next X seconds based on ranks. The ability does not have a cast time and can be used while moving. Cooldown should be similar to the Windwall.
The dash. Give it a real cooldown of 2.5/2/1.5/1/0.5 seconds based on rank. When Yasuo kills a unit, this cooldown resets. Do not remove the cooldown that is per target though. Alternatively, if that actually made him too weak, just remove the escalating damage from it.
Ultimate: Stop making the positioning of this perfect. If he ults you under tower, make him take the hits from it. Also, Give it a damage decrease of 25% if the knock-up was caused by someone else. Yasuo should not be such a good duelist and a good teamfighter and a good ganker and a good bully and.. you get the point?

Zed

Nerf all damage (not just his) by a noticeable amount to stop the hyper-mobile burst nonsense. Alternatively, if you want a Zed specific nerf
Increase the duration of his shadow by 1 second. Make his shadow not be able to mimic abilities for 1/0.9/0.8/0.7/0.5 seconds. He can still switch places with the shadow instantly. This makes him a lot more skill based rather than you not being allowed to actually dodge his "poke" that shreds half your life off instantly without counterplay. Increase the Cooldown by 3 seconds.
Compensate for the cooldown increase by adding another second to the CD reduction on Shadow Slash, making it 3 seconds instead of 2.
Decrease the pass-through penalty of Q. Make the damage 70% instead of 60%. Those compensations should make the abilities more skill based. This is assuming that damage in general is at least somewhat nerfed though. otherwise he needs a total damage nerf like almost all other bursty champions.

Riven

Nerf passive down to 20-45%
Nerf Q Base Damage down to 10/25/45/65/85
Nerf stun CD up by 3 seconds at all ranks
Nerf shield base amount down to 80/105/125/150/175 and increase AD% by 10% up to 110% and increase CD by 1 second on each rank.
Increase Ulti cooldown by 20 seconds at all ranks.

Jax This one is interesting. To keep him a late game monster, you would need to nerf his early game significantly if this were to be fair. So, I would approach this similar to a Rakan style thing.

Leap Strike, I would change the range from 700 to 500-700 based on level (not rank) against champions with a set value of 700 for targeting wards and allies. I would also probably shave off 5 or 10 base damage from all ranks. And increase all CDs on this by 3 per rank.
Empower, I would just nerf the CD by 1.5 seconds per rank.
Counterstrike needs work.. I dislike how it affects both autos and AoE. However, if we maintain this, I think a CD increase of 2 seconds at all ranks along with a base damage nerf of 10-15 damage on all ranks should help. I think that should be enough. If not, I would change the bonus damage from the ulti from magic damage to physical damage so itemizing against him would be more possible.

Vayne Oh boy... Haha... You could go about this in about 90 different ways and it would still work. Funny how Riot has no interest in doing so.

Remove the true damage from Silver Bolts. Make Silver Bolts not work with Rageblade.
While in ultimate, Vayne takes 25% increased damage from all sources. You are almost permanently invisible anyway...

Another way to do this:

Silver Bolts do not work with Rageblade. Silver Bolts do not stack with Blade of the Ruined King. Lower %Health damage to 3/5/7/9/11%
Put invisibility on a 1.5 second cooldown regardless of CD. Meaning she can use Q but will not become invisible unless she has been visible for at least 1.5 seconds. Probably not enough here, to be honest and not my favorite way of doing this.

Another way:

Remove %Health damage and make it a flat amount of bonus True Damage (I hate True Damage buuuut). Make Rageblade not work with Vayne.
As above with Ultimate. Increase damage from all sources by 15% instead though.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 10, 20193 votes

That would absolutely gut Yasuo, Riven, and Vayne. Completely.

SyrileApr 10, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAEJvfgU,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-04-10T18:13:38.796+0000)

That would absolutely gut Yasuo, Riven, and Vayne. Completely.

Not really. Yasuo would require actual skill to use, similar to Fiora and still be more mobile than her.

Riven... Honestly, I am not sure? Maybe a little too steep. I think she is overrated right now, to be honest. She is too strong but not quite as strong as everyone seems to think so maybe you are right here.

Vayne? Honestly, %Health true damage should /never/ exist on a ranged champion. I have a hard time buying it on Fiora even but that is just nonsense. Especially with Rageblade and Blade of the Ruined King. Vayne should not be hyper-mobile, unable to itemize against her, perfect-killing machine that has nearly limitless outplay potential with such high stats that even new players can wreck on her just buy proc'ing silver bolts. Either make her skill floor go up significantly while getting rid of that obscene %health true damage or just remove that whole concept from the game.

Mind, I love Vayne as a champion. And I would probably like Riven.. But Vayne especially is just too much. There should not be champions that are must-beat-in-draft.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 10, 20195 votes

If you don't consider Yasuo as requiring skill to play now, then you really shouldn't be attempting to make balance decisions for him.

Everything in his kit works exactly how it is supposed to. You take out some aspect, be it his mobility, his defensive options, whatever, then you need to amp up some other aspect in order for him to even perform moderately. If you want him to actually do his job (that is, a high damage fighter that builds few defensive items so he's still squishy, but has in-built tools in order to function as a fighter), then the kit you suggested just straight won't work.

Riven is simply you nerfing every aspect of her kit with no compensation. Of course that's going to gut her.

Vayne: I've already said it once on this thread, and I'll say it again: Not everything needs counterplay directly to the other party. Macro counterplay is just as important and just as viable. Lane management, proper ganking and flanking, etc.

Vayne is beatable in game. Quite simply. She is a duelist champion, who thrives in one vs one encounters, as if she switches targets, she loses her big damage source. If you attempt to fight her as one person, 9 times out of 10, you will lose. That's the intended interaction, that's what she is supposed to (that 1 other time is divided between you playing another duelist, her being very far behind, or you just being super far ahead).

What you are supposed to do is bring friends, use the buddy system. Once she has to start focusing on more than one target, particularly if both of those enemies are threats in their own right (be that damage or crowd control), then her advantage starts to fall hard.

Not every champion is designed to be beat one against one. This isn't a fighting game, where you are only against your one opponent the entire time. This is a 5v5 team game. You have 4 other teammates. Use them.

IP MasquerenaApr 10, 20191 votes

It's funny how some people will say that some champs need to never lose while others have to be beatable (Not you, just mentioning this in case of misunderstandings).

A while back there was on guy that said Akali needs to be beatable by anything if the other player is good enough, which is a fair point, but few comments later he was saying that no matter how good the other player is, Zed should never lose lane to them because he is designed to snowball and if he can't he's useless (guess his main).

And if people know so well how to counter champs, how do you 1v1 Renekton? Simply, you don't. But of he is allowed that strength, why isn't Vayne?

SyrileApr 10, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAEJvfgU,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T18:30:37.626+0000)

If you don't consider Yasuo as requiring skill to play now, then you really shouldn't be attempting to make balance decisions for him.

Everything in his kit works exactly how it is supposed to. You take out some aspect, be it his mobility, his defensive options, whatever, then you need to amp up some other aspect in order for him to even perform moderately. If you want him to actually do his job (that is, a high damage fighter that builds few defensive items so he's still squishy, but has in-built tools in order to function as a fighter), then the kit you suggested just straight won't work.

Riven is simply you nerfing every aspect of her kit with no compensation. Of course that's going to gut her.

Vayne: I've already said it once on this thread, and I'll say it again: Not everything needs counterplay directly to the other party. Macro counterplay is just as important and just as viable. Lane management, proper ganking and flanking, etc.

Vayne is beatable in game. Quite simply. She is a duelist champion, who thrives in one vs one encounters, as if she switches targets, she loses her big damage source. If you attempt to fight her as one person, 9 times out of 10, you will lose. That's the intended interaction, that's what she is supposed to (that 1 other time is divided between you playing another duelist, her being very far behind, or you just being super far ahead).

What you are supposed to do is bring friends, use the buddy system. Once she has to start focusing on more than one target, particularly if both of those enemies are threats in their own right (be that damage or crowd control), then her advantage starts to fall hard.

Not every champion is designed to be beat one against one. This isn't a fighting game, where you are only against your one opponent the entire time. This is a 5v5 team game. You have 4 other teammates. Use them.

There are a lot of things wrong about this post. Primarily, Yasuo is oppressive at all points of the game. He has the most frustrating kit to play against of nearly any champion in any game. But, skill? not really. He might have a decent skill-ceiling, but on my very first game with him, I played terribly, did not even use Windwall properly and half the time mis-used the dashes and still got a double kill when being ganked. My second game on him, I was camped, went 0/5, hit one item, ended the game with the most damage on my team because we had a Gragas that could land bodyslams (not particularly hard). He provides way too much in every aspect of the game. Being him is easy, if you pick someone who directly counters him. Like Malzahar, which I am fond of doing. But, since dealing with him so much, I am pretty good at beating him with most champions. Mostly because most Yasuo players are toxic and just want to BM you rather than win. If they played properly, he is very hard to beat unless done in draft. But no matter what, the Windwall is a huge problem. The only reason it exists is to make sure the game is as toxic as possible.

Riven needs nerfed. Math shows this. There is no argument with math. It is universally true. She is too powerful with a game that is too easy to get her online.

The problem with that idea of teamwork is two-fold. One, even professional teams get wrecked by her, in 5v5 teamfights. I watch all of them and Vayne wins a lot. Especially on the good ADCs. And that is five people playing together that know each other's playstyles and have mic communication and they still lose to her. Two, in a game with random players, most players believe they are "the carry" and will try to one-v-one anyone no matter what. This happens in normals and ranked and ARAM and every mode and every rank. What you are asking for is unrealistic in any rank below Diamond and even there, I have given evidence to the contrary as professional teams still lose 5v5 teamfights to her because she deletes people too much.

Keep in mind, I play a lot of control mages and support-style mages like Malzahar and Zilean. I focus on making my team win rather than myself. And yet, when I CC someone, many times players will not go in. Or the ADC believes they can "splitpush" because everyone thinks they are Faker. Worse though, she can just by QSS and even Malzahar's ulti does nothing to her.

Beating a Vayne is about the other player not understanding how to play her, or about the rest of her team not being on her level. Vayne was designed to fill a niche but now she is overwhelming. The fact that she has a 70% pick/ban rate with a 53% winrate overall and is one of the best in both top and adc, says a lot. And this is in Platinum+ ranks. Switch that to Master+ (Ya know, the people who should know how to do teamwork) and this becomes a 54% pick/ban rate with a 55.88% winrate in bot lane and still 52.65% winrate in top lane. That is oppressive and way too overpowered. Again, math never lies.

IP MasquerenaApr 10, 20191 votes

You are half right and half wrong on the pro play one. Yes, you are right, they have communication and know how to focus, but you are wrong on assuming that she wins alone.

In lower elos she wins because people don't know how to focus, in higher elos she wins because people know she is their win condition.

In pro play and high elo her team guards her, that's why she does so well, she is free to use her Condemn as a pick tool or emergency self peel, because her team handles the rest.

In my games, when I'm the jungler I do give special treatment to Vayne, if she's on my team I risk even dying myself to save her ass because she is my win condition, as long as she lives and is half decent, she'll win the fight. If the enemy team has one, unless she's feeding (I'm a jungler) already or the enemy team had someone more important, I take her out first thing because I know she's a win condition.

Yes, she needs a little toning down, just get rid of crapblade and it's done, but she always was like this "keep me safe and I'll win".

SyrileApr 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You are half right and half wrong on the pro play one. Yes, you are right, they have communication and know how to focus, but you are wrong on assuming that she wins alone.

In lower elos she wins because people don't know how to focus, in higher elos she wins because people know she is their win condition.

In pro play and high elo her team guards her, that's why she does so well, she is free to use her Condemn as a pick tool or emergency self peel, because her team handles the rest.

In my games, when I'm the jungler I do give special treatment to Vayne, if she's on my team I risk even dying myself to save her ass because she is my win condition, as long as she lives and is half decent, she'll win the fight. If the enemy team has one, unless she's feeding (I'm a jungler) already or the enemy team had someone more important, I take her out first thing because I know she's a win condition.

Yes, she needs a little toning down, just get rid of crapblade and it's done, but she always was like this "keep me safe and I'll win".

Except when you see Ruler literally 1v9 with her. Or what just happened a couple of days ago in the LPL when the entire team was getting wrecked and Vayne shows up and just decimates the enemy team. Casters literally saying "She is invisible so often they cannot fight back!" as she one-v-threes on a "duelist" champion.

IP MasquerenaApr 11, 20191 votes

Casters are prone to overreact everything, on a bunch of interviews with casters I've read that they do it just to spice up the viewing experience, and also many casters seem to be good at commenting but not at the game, as the ones who did say their ranks weren't too high, and by that I mean plat and bellow.

Now, on the issue you said "She comes in late and decimated the fight". A few days ago someone posted how Cowsept got a 1v5 pentakill on Yi in high elo, and what he was told was this: "He picked his fight correctly, the enemy didn't had their cooldowns up and just took the fight poorly, almost any hypercarry with the same farm as Yi could've done that play if played smart". Yes, that's not from 1 comment but the TL:DR, so I ask you, can you confirm that it was not a similar situation? If not even better for the Vayne due to the following: (taking speculations from your text as I didn't watch the match)

it was a team fight where her team went 4 for 2, which means they weren't that "wrecked" and the other 3 who survived also used their important cooldowns in that fight, or at least some of, making it so they don't have enough for Vayne.

Also, duelists going 1v3 is nothing new, Jax, Illaoi, Yi and many can if they have decent farm/are ahead and they play it right. Seen an Illaoi go 1v4 a bunch of days ago, killed them all and wasn't even taken to half health.

As for the "She 1v9", as I said, she's a win condition, so if you're doing bad, protect her. Yes, your score won't reflect that, your score will show you're feeding, but everything you take that she doesn't get to be hit with is important in the end. You tanked a Morgana Q and die to her team? Well that Q is now on cool down and Vayne doesn't have to tank it for a while, hopefully long enough to either win the fight it take Morgana out.

There are a lot of subtle nuances to when someone "1v9". Yes, in lower elos you can actually do it because people can't focus for shit, but in higher ones, the team makes itself be carried because they know what to do when behind

SyrileApr 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Casters are prone to overreact everything, on a bunch of interviews with casters I've read that they do it just to spice up the viewing experience, and also many casters seem to be good at commenting but not at the game, as the ones who did say their ranks weren't too high, and by that I mean plat and bellow.

Now, on the issue you said "She comes in late and decimated the fight". A few days ago someone posted how Cowsept got a 1v5 pentakill on Yi in high elo, and what he was told was this: "He picked his fight correctly, the enemy didn't had their cooldowns up and just took the fight poorly, almost any hypercarry with the same farm as Yi could've done that play if played smart". Yes, that's not from 1 comment but the TL:DR, so I ask you, can you confirm that it was not a similar situation? If not even better for the Vayne due to the following: (taking speculations from your text as I didn't watch the match)

it was a team fight where her team went 4 for 2, which means they weren't that "wrecked" and the other 3 who survived also used their important cooldowns in that fight, or at least some of, making it so they don't have enough for Vayne.

Also, duelists going 1v3 is nothing new, Jax, Illaoi, Yi and many can if they have decent farm/are ahead and they play it right. Seen an Illaoi go 1v4 a bunch of days ago, killed them all and wasn't even taken to half health.

As for the "She 1v9", as I said, she's a win condition, so if you're doing bad, protect her. Yes, your score won't reflect that, your score will show you're feeding, but everything you take that she doesn't get to be hit with is important in the end. You tanked a Morgana Q and die to her team? Well that Q is now on cool down and Vayne doesn't have to tank it for a while, hopefully long enough to either win the fight it take Morgana out.

There are a lot of subtle nuances to when someone "1v9". Yes, in lower elos you can actually do it because people can't focus for shit, but in higher ones, the team makes itself be carried because they know what to do when behind

Some of this is right. However, there are a ton of games where a Vayne just takes off and wrecks an entire fight. With or without their team. Other champions can do it too. But you can itemize against those champions. You cannot itemize against Vayne. There is no defense. You just accept that she kills you by %Health True Damage while being invisible providing almost no counterplay if the person is good enough.

They have buffed her, along with many champions to the point that skill requirements are lessened drastically or removed entirely.

IP MasquerenaApr 11, 20191 votes

Well, the biggest issue at the moment is how short her fuse is.

That was always her thing, get to a point where no matter how good you did in the game, if you didn't end it, she will win.

The reasons for why her fuse is so short are Rageblade and Ravenous Hunter. Since RH works with her W, her laning phase is much stronger because she has a lot of healing from it, hence why if she gets a kill or two early makes her so strong, because it buffs the Ravenous healing by a lot, and when she gets Rageblade, not only she deals damage, but also heals a lot making her much less punishable bot early and later.

Without those two, she is much weaker to the point where she's actually balanced.

For Vayne, the reason why she is less skilled now than in the past (I do have over 100k on her over the past 3 years, so I know as I played her in a lot of different metas) is because RB and RH along games being much shorter. A stronger laning phase due to RH healing coupled with PtA's damage buff, a much earlier power spike thanks to the above coupled with RB giving both a lot of attack speed and removing the need of 3 autos for SB, and games being shorter making it require less macro plays means you don't have as many occasions to fuck up. Sometimes all it takes is one good fight (unless your team trolls and goes farming after OR the fight was too close and it's impossible atm to an objective), so having less occasions to fuck up is actually a buff for less skilled players.

Macro play is important, but at the moment it's not as important as it should be.

Bring back longer games, remove RB from interacting with SB and and remove the on-hit part from Ravenous and there, Vayne is balanced.

That on hit heal is too big, especially coupled with BotRK.

Heal for 1.5% (+ 2.5% per Bounty Hunter stack) of the damage dealt by your abilities, on-hit effects and items, up to 14% at 5 stacks.

The reason why Vayne and Riven aren't gutted and nerfed as the community wants them to is because their kits alone and directly aren't the problem, it's the interaction with items and runes that makes them so strong, and the problem with that is that there isn't a clear solution. If you nerf the kit because of the interaction, it forces that interaction to be mandatory, if you nerf Vayne to be "fair" to play against when she has RH and RB, then she's bellow Ryze tier without them, and the same goes for Riven.

You can shove off some small numbers, but nothing too big without forcing it to be mandatory, and just shoving off some small numbers will do next to nothing, -5 MS or -2 AD anyone?. There just isn't a clear solution. That's why they haven't went past the "OP line", because it's not them themselves that are the problem, yes, they are strong right now, but it's not them directly.

ZackTheWaffleManApr 10, 20191 votes

yasuo: remove the passive shield, and his ult's automatic place-outside-of-tower-range mechanic zed: nerf item 3147 's damage riven: reduce movement speed by 25, remove Q cooldown, W damage now scales with 150% AP jax: E cooldown greatly increased vayne: dunno man, she seems fine