I Dont see why Ekko is allowed to jungle but Camille is not

Moonfall Saber·Oct 26, 2017·37 votes·2,771 views

Now we are buffing Ekko in the jungle. Meanwhile one of my favorite junglers stunggles to just clear camps.

61 Comments

SalronOct 26, 201729 votes

I'd rather Camille NOT be a viable jungler with her ult

SpecterVonBarenOct 26, 201717 votes

I'd rather she not be a viable jungler with her E.

Pale PirateOct 26, 20176 votes

And these were my first two thoughts while I was clicking this thread.

Moonfall SaberOct 26, 20171 votes

Ekko can dash over walls with a low cooldown as well though

ModAcademy KaynOct 26, 20176 votes

With hardly the range that Camille can get, with mobility that doesn't require a target for the second portion.

Avios1Oct 26, 20172 votes

As a Camille main here, I'm gonna have to agree. The range in which Camille can leap from a wall to a champ is extremely strong, I'm able to consistently jump to my turret and stun an enemy under tower from max leap range when walking back to lane and the enemy is on my turret.

LordGeovanniOct 26, 20171 votes

yea but camille's e is very thin and easy to side step and her e cooldown is much higher thats just a case of people staying under your tower too long because they arent respecting your mobility which is cut in half without a visible champion to dash to and ekko has a dash that is much shorter and his second piece is point and click aka an empowered auto attack and a blink with much longer range than camille's second part e

yay nibbersOct 27, 20171 votes

Don't forget the hard CC she has over him too on the dash.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 26, 20171 votes

Only if he has a target to dash to, and it's a very small range (about the same as RIven's Q).

While she can jump a distance greater than Akali can ult to. Longer than Rengar's ultimate's jump. About the same as all three of Ahri's ults in a row.

Tiny-ass roll+Blink versus can't possibly miss a wall in the jungle that has double range and a stun attached to it if she dashes to an enemy champion.

LordGeovanniOct 26, 20171 votes

Camille has to know the enemy is on the other side of the wall to max range e on both parts and her e is about 200 units longer than 1 of akali's ults at max range. ekko can e to roll over a wall then point and click blink to his target for a shit ton of damage and camille's e barely has damage and the attack speed attached to it got nerfed to be conditional.

THE RlVER KlNGOct 26, 201717 votes

Because her ganks are borderline broken post 6

LordGeovanniOct 26, 20171 votes

her ult was nerfed to be 2-3-4 from a constant 4 her cooldown didnt go down to compensate. at level 6 no body is gonna walk from the middle of your r to the edge in just 2 seconds so it only blocks dashes at that point.

The DeckownerOct 26, 20177 votes

You can make the same arguement for a ton of other champions, Camille doesn't even have the worst clear.

MooooooooreDakkaOct 26, 20176 votes

I'd imagine because ekko's parallel convergence makes for engaging ganks that can work but can also be outplayed while Camille hookshot into hextech ultimatum does not.

AzadetheOct 26, 20174 votes

Tbh, anyone can jungle reliably with current itemization, except perhaps Lissandra, whose initial cooldowns are too long to be a reliable clearer.

When I'm bored I've literally tried about every champ, and there isn't a melee who can't jungle, and sustain well enough for normal ganks. Most mages can too. And Most can clear fast enough to be competitive, because of gradual base AD boosts that make even mages good auto attackers and mana sustain on jungle items which make it otherwise viable.

Three of my favorite Junglers: Leona (Some of the most monstrous ganks in game, fast clear with Cinder or Echo, especially post Sheen and Mobi boots) Reason she works: Basic attack resets, the Armor scaling on W, 2 aoe abilities with decent damage (She can pretty much solo a drake too).

Rakan (has very slow immediate clear, but no slower than any other jungler who goes Red >Wolves > Blue > Gank) Has very high Base AD, so hunter's knife start clears very fast. After he has some AP and attack speed, becomes a pretty fast clearer, free roaming ganker who is downright oppressive for opponents since he has one of the strongest engages in game that doubles as an ally healer and dash peel from the engage. Much more viable after the last change which increased AP scaling).

Karma (Decent enough mana regen, barriers, low CD Q, W heals her in jungle when Mantra'd, fast move speed, 100% lock ganks (W in a gank is almost an absolute kill, even if opponent has flash), Low risk ganks that don't feed even when the gank is unsuccessful. Clears extremely fast, Very low auto attack reset times.

Leona and Karma are Rankable as Junglers. Rakan if you build wrong will fall behind.

MysticDreams12Oct 26, 20171 votes

I second that on Leo jg. I've had some of most fun games taking her jg. I've done Karma once but that was awhile ago.

ProcellaOct 26, 20172 votes

I always had a lot of fun going jungle Xerath. Mostly because you wouldn't have to go to the lane to gank. Though it's hard to get a team that doesn't dodge when you try it. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Morally superiorOct 26, 20172 votes

You should try Ahri jungle. I'm sitting at an 80% winrate with it right now... Her clears are not amazing early but they get far better, she's amazing at stealing objectives (hop in summoner 11 hop out). Solid level 2 ganks and amazing level 6 and onwards. I love cheesing mid at lvl 2 (revenge for everytime it happened to me). She's a fairly good duelist due to being ranged and having amazing kite. She's also pretty safe -even if you get caught in your jungle you just press r to get out.

Example build: item 1402 , item 3020 , item 3165 , item 3089 , item 3152 because, yes, she needs 4 dashes item 3135

No one expects the red buff Ahri :evil laugh: [sg-ahri-2]

GaliöOct 26, 20173 votes

I dont see why i cant make applejuice out of oranges.

Moonfall SaberOct 26, 20171 votes

You can still make juice

GaliöOct 26, 20171 votes

But i want apple juice

RankOneUgandaOct 26, 20172 votes

he still isn't a very good jungler. hes just playable now as a jungler. you will be at a disadvantage against any meta jungler because while you do kill camps a lot faster than before you're still a sustainless ap jungler that takes damage from camps even after 2+ items

AzadetheOct 26, 20171 votes

His clear is on par with Eve clear, and he can dash over a wall, putting him slightly behind a Nidalee.

KaìjuOct 26, 20172 votes

Camille was nerfed to the dirt because her kit by nature is bad design. She has so much loaded into her kit that if she's strong she's overbearing. She's like a top lane version of Lee Sin, if she's good she's broken. Some of the play testers when she was being released was a pro player iirc and they even told Riot she cannot she allowed to exist as is, because she has so much. It's the same reason Irelia used to be OP, they have so many things in their kit they just do it all. Her kit straight up is too good.

LordGeovanniOct 26, 20171 votes

yet vayne and caitlyn are allowed to exist lee sin is allowed to exists arhi is allowed to exist and if any of them ever stop being strong riot immediately buffs them next patch no 5 patch wait like other guys. Camille was never too strong she just fucked adcs and riot cant have that fighters didnt have a problem with her mages didnt have a problem with her neither assassins.

KaìjuOct 26, 20171 votes

Lee Sin falls off, Vayne is annoying but really short ranged so if you trap her she's done plus her early game is pretty shitty when ADC items are on a BOGO deal, Caitlyn isn't that bad if you for step on a trap which isn't that hard if you are asleep on top of the fact she lost like 60hp level one which is huge so you can all in her early, and Ahri isn't doing amazing right now because AP items are kinda shitty. Camille has mobility, true damage, sustain, CC, a zone lock, and more. But go ahead and point out how "Riot loves ADCs so much" even though most of them are dog shit right now anyways aside from Twitch, Trist, and Kog.

LordGeovanniOct 27, 20171 votes

Lee sin does not fall off other champions catch up and build defenses those are not the same thing

KaìjuOct 27, 20171 votes

Either way Lee Sin stops melting people so he falls off.

LordGeovanniOct 28, 20171 votes

that only happens among melee fighters not ranged marksmen assassins or mages. lee sin also does not fall off he still does crap tons of damage because the second part of his q is missing hp modifier his r nukes and he has mobility to get in and out with sheilding and healing.

KaìjuOct 28, 20171 votes

My 30% life steal begs to differ on getting melted.

LordGeovanniOct 28, 20171 votes

30% lifesteal on a fighter that fighter will die before getting into range to do any damage.

lolipopevelynnOct 26, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moonfall Saber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g8RdmVE2,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-26T00:04:46.153+0000)

Now we are buffing Ekko in the jungle. Meanwhile one of my favorite junglers stunggles to just clear camps.

the answer is simple. ADCs cry their eyes out about her ult, so papa riot has to do something about it.

LordGeovanniOct 27, 20171 votes

Camille did have a problem her ult wasnt it it was the true damage on her Q should be less true damage and more physical damage. And you are right adcs complained about her ult and riot nerfed it so that it lasted less than it took to walk to the edge at early levels without compensation buff at the later levels. Ekko's ultimate had much much more cry out for how it healed him gave him a free escape and did a shit ton of damage but riot just let it be and you had to deal with it. But Camille Procs Courage of the Colossus has it over lap with her passive shield and get wasted has a long cooldown telegraphed dash but riot nerfs everything on Camille except her Q damage.

TheFallenShawOct 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moonfall Saber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g8RdmVE2,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-26T00:04:46.153+0000)

Now we are buffing Ekko in the jungle. Meanwhile one of my favorite junglers stunggles to just clear camps.

But she can in fact clear camps. Please keep in mind that buffing her in anyway buffs her in all roles and positions. So don't expect much when she's fine as she is in lane. Can't have someone going from ok, to Stomping down toplanes Inhib at 7min mark because you want to have better jungle clears.

PS: I actually think ekko needed no buffs. He could already jungle he was just better in lane. Also he's one of the most annoying champs in the game. I like teemo better than him.

ParoeOct 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But she can in fact clear camps. Please keep in mind that buffing her in anyway buffs her in all roles and positions. So don't expect much when she's fine as she is in lane. Can't have someone going from ok, to Stomping down toplanes Inhib at 7min mark because you want to have better jungle clears.

PS: I actually think ekko needed no buffs. He could already jungle he was just better in lane. Also he's one of the most annoying champs in the game. I like teemo better than him.

Did you forget monster specific buffs are a thing? "Camilles legs deal 50% extra damage to monsters" isnt game breaking...

TheFallenShawOct 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Did you forget monster specific buffs are a thing? "Camilles legs deal 50% extra damage to monsters" isnt game breaking...

Monster specific buffs will only buff her in lane to. Sadly you don't know how to counter jungle after pushing in a wave, however I'm quite good at it. Esp with tryda who has no, might I add buffs to taking down monsters. Also the last thing he got in years was a 3 second nerf to his R yet no buff.

50% exstra damage... on top of damage you have is game breaking. unless your so weak you can't solo a camp with smite and refilable. Why? bc if you can solo them you become like WW who is prac broken and can solo drag level 3. Nothing OP about soloing Rift at level 4 or 5 then using it top though. Not a thing.

ParoeOct 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Monster specific buffs will only buff her in lane to. Sadly you don't know how to counter jungle after pushing in a wave, however I'm quite good at it. Esp with tryda who has no, might I add buffs to taking down monsters. Also the last thing he got in years was a 3 second nerf to his R yet no buff.

50% exstra damage... on top of damage you have is game breaking. unless your so weak you can't solo a camp with smite and refilable. Why? bc if you can solo them you become like WW who is prac broken and can solo drag level 3. Nothing OP about soloing Rift at level 4 or 5 then using it top though. Not a thing.

50% extra damage to monsters really isnt a whole lot, especially if youre playing bruiser. Your damage comes from Q procs. Being specific, making camilles W (Thats her slow, not her mobility right?) do 50-100% increased damage on monsters would let her be a viable jungle with a clear speed akin to lee sin and renekton.

Also, after two years of watching challenger streamers and high diamond youtubers capable of challenger... I have very rarely seen them counter jungle after pushing a wave. Getting scuttle crab and breaking the vision plant yes, but never going out of their way to kill gromp or blue or wolves.

RalanrOct 26, 20171 votes

Camille isn’t designed primarily for the jungle. That’s why.

Moonfall SaberOct 26, 20172 votes

Neither is Ekko yet Ekko now deals 200% damage from his passive in monsters

HalcyonDwellerOct 26, 20172 votes

Ekko leaves a lot more room for conterplay with his kit. I suspect that is why it is healthier for him to jungle than it is for Camille to do so.

LordGeovanniOct 26, 20171 votes

more counter play with a 3 second stun on an assassin sheild larger than tanks sheilds full healing nuke ult while building full damage and point and click dash and powerful slow

HalcyonDwellerOct 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

more counter play with a 3 second stun on an assassin sheild larger than tanks sheilds full healing nuke ult while building full damage and point and click dash and powerful slow

3 second stun that is clearly telegraphed giving plenty of time to react, a shield that is also tied to that stun so that it is only available for the same duration as the stun, such that it does nothing to help against enemies that are stunned as they won't be dealing damage to you anyway. Again, an ultimate that is clearly telegraphed by the shadow-ekko, and the dash is short range. Lastly, the slow is tied to a 3-hit passive, in order to get it off he has to land abilities and autoattacks, giving opponents plenty of time to see it coming and react.

You can make anything sound overpowered if you twist your words like you did. Don't be biased and manipulative. We're talking facts here.

RalanrOct 26, 20171 votes

If I remember correctly, Riot intended Ekko to have jungle power upon his release.

Then tank Ekko happened.

KloqdqOct 26, 20171 votes

Camille is the kind of champion that has very little counterplay on her ganks and can do it hyper aggressively. The combined power of E, R and W makes her ganks some of the most deadly I can think of. If not for her weak clear she is like a LeeSin that is stronger.

XithekOct 26, 20171 votes

I feel like Ekko as a champion and the versatility he has shown over his like 2 years of existence is something Riot wants to keep, but in a healthy fashion. The patch note references this "We’re okay with Ekko going jungle when he does so in a healthy way (read: as an assassin, not a tank). " Ekko wasn't just created as a AP Assassin, but as a AP Fighter that plays with an assassin play style, similar to Camille. The difference is that Ekko was made to fit an older ideal for what an assassin is capable of, and Camille (as well as Kayn) were created once Riot saw the flaws that an assassin's gameplay is open to. Camille being a fighter with an assassin's playstyle means she should be able to duel effectively, have decent mobility, and the potential to interact with her team in teamfights. The way she does that as a jg, however, is not okay. If Riot balanced Camille to work in the jg she'd be using her superior (compared to Ekko) mobility (e) and cc (r) to lock down any opponent. In order to do the same Ekko has to strategically outplay his opponent with a well placed parallel convergence. He can't point click lock down a target. Hence that counterplay is why Riot is okay with Ekko being a jungler and not Camille.

LordGeovanniOct 26, 20171 votes

except that ekko was created as a assassin bruiser hybrid but tank ekko was nerfed to the ground (sure his passive did too much damage and shouldnt have had a slow and his w sheilded far too much but other than that he didnt need buffs to his ap ratios)

LordGeovanniOct 26, 20171 votes

because people were crying about her being too mobile with her E up every 6 seconds with max cdr got the e cooldown nerfed and got the e not able to activate its attack speed unless she hit something. got her w heal and damage nerfed. other things nerfed on camille her passive and ult

jjcool99Oct 26, 20171 votes

same reason they don't want Alistair in the jungle the ganks are too oppressive. you can't escape a camille gank for crap with her moblity and r alistar just tower dives you with ulti and knocks you out from under your tower.