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was hashinshin just being hashinshin or is there actually no top lane main on riots design team?

Critmaster Garen··2 votes·775 views

i would really like to know if he was correct, when he said there isnt a single top lane main on riots design team, which is why they constantly disregard or forget champions that lane up there.

looking at the preseason changes it really doesnt seem far off. they never seem to think of how their game and rune changes impact top lane.

for example, looking at the preseason changes its actually pretty ridiculous.

overgrowth, a rune that is already regarded as relatively weak is going to get nerfed really hard for champions who actually build health, just to make it slightly better on champions who dont. so basically no one really thought about how this change affects fighters and tanks and only throught about how they could make it better on mages and adc.

160 gold on turret plating is downright psychotic and results in effectively feeding your opponent 800 gold for playing passive at your turret, if he gets into the position to poke at it. this means in melee vs. ranged matchup on top lane where melee champions often have to play defensive early on, and ranged champions can poke at your turrets, its a massive buff for these champions who will snowball off these plates. of course in addition to boneplating being removed and champions becoming less resistant to poke as a result.

resolve 1 is a mess. two runes with font of life and shield bash that are so niche, that only a very small portion of the champion pool can even trigger or utilize them, defaults the majority of champions who are opting into resolve to demolish. there is literally no other choice in that row for almost the entire top lane champion pool. a rune thats almost guaranteed to be broken and nerfed with the turret plating mechanic.

7 Comments

ModThe Djinn5 votes

i would really like to know if he was correct, when he said there isnt a single top lane main on riots design team, which is why they constantly disregard or forget champions that lane up there.

We don't really know. To categorically say this you'd need to identify the main account of every member of the design team, some of whom don't post on the forums. I think it's highly unlikely to be true though, given that there are only 5 positions and Riot's design team -- while not enormous -- is large enough that there should statistically be at least a few.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g7OflXzX,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-06T23:02:03.226+0000)

We don't really know. To categorically say this you'd need to identify the main account of every member of the design team, some of whom don't post on the forums. I think it's highly unlikely to be true though, given that there are only 5 positions and Riot's design team -- while not enormous -- is large enough that there should statistically be at least a few.

ok, then really why does riot pretty much constantly forget that top lane exists?

look at the Akali rework.

all of her abilities are designed around being played against mages on mid lane. a lot of sustain and ways to avoid poke. doesnt seem like they stopped for a second and thought about what would happen if people just took her top lane.

even the entire turret plating mechanic only seems to be designed with mid lane and bot lane in mind, where you usually have ranged champions playing against each other with equal opportunity to poke at the enemies turret, or champions who roam into bot lane.

have they even stopped to think what a crazy snowbally effect that mechanic has when the enemy jungler decides to run demolish and camp top lane, or there is a melee vs. ranged matchup where the ranged champion is constantly pressuring the melee champion and snowballs off poke at that turret?

ModThe Djinn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g7OflXzX,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-06T23:09:41.732+0000)ok, then really why does riot pretty much constantly forget that top lane exists?

I can promise you they don't. Their vision and/or balance for it may not be what you (or some other portions of the community) like, and they may not always land the designs the way they intend (or the way parts of the community would like), but they're not just forgetting 1/5th of the positions in the game. I've spoken to enough of their design team -- and seen enough of their frankly dauntingly intense and in-depth interview process -- to know that they're all pretty sharp people, and that sort of oversight -- especially consistently -- is not really at all likely.

Now, not hitting the gameplay state that some community members like, or sometimes failing to account for the outsized effect a specific change or champion would have at top lane? Sure -- that's much more likely, given the sheer size and scope of League, and how often metas shift.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g7OflXzX,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-06T23:12:41.965+0000)

I can promise you they don't. Their vision and/or balance for it may not be what you (or some other portions of the community) like, and they may not always land the designs the way they intend (or the way parts of the community would like), but they're not just forgetting 1/5th of the positions in the game. I've spoken to enough of their design team -- and seen enough of their interview process -- to know that they're all pretty sharp people, and that sort of oversight -- especially consistently -- is not really at all likely.

Now, not hitting the gameplay state that some community members like, or sometimes failing to account for the outsized effect a specific change or champion would have at top lane? Sure -- that's much more likely, given the sheer size and scope of League, and how often metas shift.

ok, so if theyre all smart and keeping every lane in mind, how do they plan on preventing champions like Gnar running demolish and snowballing simply off poke at your turret? youre effectively feeding him 3 kills worth in gold for playing safe through the lane phase. this means champions who cant directly fight him from early on out will practically lose lane in champ select because there is no win scenario for them.

top lane is heavy counterpick oriented, so a lot of champions are only viable by playing safe through the early game stages without feeding their opponent, and scaling up. theyre taking that option out of the game because instead of getting fed off you, your opponent is just going to get fed off your turret.

if they keep everything in mind, why do they wreck our rune choices in resolve and design them around supports and support tanks? the large majority of the champions who are opting into that path cant physically make use of shield bash and font of life. overgrowth is basically getting dumpstered, which only leaves unflinchig, because revitalize is just as niche as font of life and shield bash.

like how is Olaf ever going to make good use of shield bash? or Nasus Darius Garen Trundle Aatrox Illaoi Yorick MonkeyKing and a ton of other champions?

there are only very few champions in the game even capable of triggering it, and those can almost nonstop trigger it, like Shen

ModThe Djinn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g7OflXzX,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-06T23:19:08.891+0000)-questions-

As I'm not part of Riot's internal testing team or their design team, I clearly can't answer these questions, so it's not really the best discussion point to ask me to guess at their potential solutions. My suggestion, however, would be that these are valid concerns, but I think it's important to actually see if the changes land exactly as teased or end up changed and then -- and this is important -- actually use said changes and attempt to exploit them. It's possible that Gnar is a huge issue, but, if non-Gnar laning is improved for everyone else, the response is to hit Gnar as necessary, not hold out on a potentially great gameplay change because Gnar might be an issue.

In sort, a lot of this is reasonable concern, but it's also packaged with some worst-case-scenario prognosticating, and I'm always a bit wary of design-based doom-saying.

Teémò2 votes

Scarizard was, but he left a year ago. He was the best I miss him.

Jar Jar binks l2 votes

It's true.

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