A little insight into why Riot couldn't make Ekko work with numbers

trash sion··22 votes·2,849 views

Riot may finally have killed Tank Ekko. That slow was valuable to his disruptor role, but I have a feeling he can still work as a tank and may need some work, but I digress.

It's been months that Riot has been trying to make Ekko work as intended. People play him as a tank, and they want him played as an assassin. Easy enough.

Think of it like this: many champions have an alternate build path (i.e. AP MF, AD Leona, AP Sion) but these buildpaths have something in common: they're somewhat suboptimal from a numbers standpoint. They serve a different role and make use of different parts of the kit that weren't as useful as a regular build (AP Sion is a Poke/Burst mage from a Tanky disruptor). These builds get played because some people find them more fun than the average build, even if the are somewhat suboptimal.

The real problem arises when the unintended buildpath synergizes with the champion's kit BETTER than the regular build, ALONG with the fact that the build isn't suboptimal number-wise.

Think of it like this. AP Sion scales off of the AP ratios on E and W. You can safely nerf the AP ratios if it gets to strong or if Riot doesn't like the playstyle it brings, and it won't affect the regular Sion buildpaths since they don't build AP.

However, it gets hard with tanks. Tanks don't scale off of number ratios, they scale off of items and how well they can abuse their CC or damage while they stay alive.

You can't nerf the items, because that hurts the other champions unnecessarily.

You can't nerf base damages to incentivize building AP, because that hurts the regular Ekko builds and Tank Ekko still has the same amount of CC potential. No amount of base damage nerfs will help you outduel a tank that just doesn't take damage while they weave CC and shields together.

You can't buff AP ratios to incentivize building AP, because it breaks the normal builds while also making the little AP the tank builds even more valuable.

So, what's left? Well, Riot finally figured it out. Why are people building Ekko has a tank in the first place?

It's because he has the CC to be a tank, which is all the justification needed to build tank. High mobility and shields make him even more suited than actual tanks to do the job.

The cherry on top? The bulk of his assassin damage is heavily delayed and can't be applied through skill alone. The enemy team has to screw up to step into Ekko ult range, which isn't something Ekko himself can control. What he can control is passive procs, E damage, W procs, and Q hits. Building AP would make all of the damage components more effective for a single use, but building tank allows him to get multiple damage uses off, as well as multiple uses of the CC. CC cannot be multiplied by AP on Ekko no matter how much AP you build, it can only be increased by using your abilities more. Hence, tank Ekko.

Riot finally did it. They removed one of his CCs. The removed slow barely effects Assassi n Ekko, because enemies die so quickly and within one proc. However, a cumulative 8 seconds of slows taken from Tank Ekko in one fights from multiple procs is a huge hit.

They're onto it. Any other necessary changes would likely follow a similar path, either removing unnecessary CC or shields, or making Ekko's burst damage more reliable and easier to control.

21 Comments

Blàdedancer2 votes

As an AP ekko main, I do support what riot is doing. When playing him AP, he just relies on getting an enemy to 2 passive hits, then BOOM that 3rd hit and theyre pretty much done. Riot should and is removing some CC, which wont hurt APkko so much, (although he does need some CC, the stun helps secure combo, Q slow is nice but if its removed I would be fine with it)

trash sion1 votes

Exactly what I mean. By the time AP Ekko procs his passive, the slow is useless because they're dead. The speed boost helps with maneuvering out after assassination, but the slow removal shouldn't feel too bad.

However, it ruins Tank Ekko who wants to get those consecutive slows off on the enemy team and the speed boosts to run around and wreak havoc. They've finally gotten it right.

XeroKimo1 votes

If they have to remove more cc off him, I'd actually wouldn't mind them removing his Q slow in exchange for letting his Q always go max distance regardless of hitting a champ, I think that would kinda actually make him broken so let's not do that.......

Actually xPeke1 votes

Well, first of all, they don't have to remove more CC from him. And secondly, removing his Q slow would absolutely gut him, he needs it for a lot of things

  1. Q + E combo, so people can't just run away from your E auto attack range
  2. Escape potential
  3. Chase potential
XeroKimo1 votes

Here's the thing, if they removed his Q slow in exchange for allowing it to always goes max range, he loses escape and chase potential, but it'll be easier to reposition your Q with your E if they are inbetween you and the max ranged Q, so it's easier to get all 3 hits on passive from just Q + E in laning phase, tho it would gut his late game, but in exchange for that early game, it might make it easier to snowball which is why I said it'd might make him broken

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Been saying this forever too. Glad I am not the only one who sees this and thankfully Riot does too.

trash sion5 votes

It took way too long, and I can't tell if they actually listened to us or if they just figured it out through process of elimination, but I'm glad they finally got it.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azuk the Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g5BQLQVx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-10-23T03:06:10.992+0000)

It took way too long, and I can't tell if they actually listened to us or if they just figured it out through process of elimination, but I'm glad they finally got it.

I honestly don't get why it took them that long tbh. It's like they knew but didn't wanna admit it to themselves or something

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

It's like they knew but didn't wanna admit it to themselves or something

Considering his niche was "utility assaaain", This entirely plausible. An inherently flawed concept is what lead to the quagmire named Ekko. Personally, I'm waiting for the intended "tank assassin" to be released. I can even think of some ways to do it! XD

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Well, easy, ranged Malph with half AD and more base damages. Passive gives massive MR per level

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

TA, the Tank Assassin

P: All of TA's abilities apply "Pressure" equal to the damage dealt. Pressure lasts 5 seconds and stacks infinity. When allies deal ability damage, Pressure is consumed dealing the stored amount as physical damage.

Q: TA blinks a short distance applying a slow to nearby enemies and dealing 40/50/60/70/80 magic damage (scales with max health). 2 charges. 30/25/20/15/10 second cooldown.

W: TA pulls essence from nearby enemy champions dealing 30/60/90/120/150 magic damage (scales with MR) and gaining 2/4/6/8/10% damage reduction for each enemy champion hit and 10/20/30/40/50% base move speed buff for 3 seconds.

E: TA disarms target champion for 0.5/1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5 seconds dealing 20/50/80/110/140 magic damage (scales with armor).

R: TA becomes invulnerable and ignores CC while dashing a large distance. TA carries the first champion hit into the air landing 3 seconds later at a target nearby location. Otters not included. Ranks reduce cooldown and increase potential landing area.

Just a fun spitball.

Spartan117101 votes

Im ok with no slows but im not ok with the dmaage nerfs. This willl him weaker early and hurt my baby ap ekko. So now im sad.

Limmie1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azuk the Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g5BQLQVx,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-23T00:24:39.650+0000)

You can't nerf base damages to incentivize building AP, because that hurts the regular Ekko builds and Tank Ekko still has the same amount of CC potential. No amount of base damage nerfs will help you outduel a tank that just doesn't take damage while they weave CC and shields together.

You can't buff AP ratios to incentivize building AP, because it breaks the normal builds while also making the little AP the tank builds even more valuable.

You can nerf base damages AND compensate for it by increasing AP ratios though. And get rid of the %HP damage.

trash sion1 votes

You nerf the Base dmg, which hurts tank ekko, but also hurts normal Ekko unnecessarily, and compensate AP Ekko by buffing the ratios which does still sort-of help Tank Ekko. Overall, it does result in a net loss for Tank Ekko, but you'd have to nearly remove his base damage altogether to negate him getting picked for the CC alone as a tank.

Ahristocats1 votes

tank ekko doesn't build AP, and even if he does and build something like protobelt, he ends up squishier than a real tank ekko build building triforce frozen mallet deadman and maw.

you can infact nerf the base damage and buff ap ratio, part of the reason tank ahri no longer exists like in season 2 where she built roa+rylai+abyssal+zhonya+void staff.

trash sion1 votes

Lowering bases and raising AP ratios does balance out at like a level 18 full build, but early game where AP Ekko has less AP the lower bases really do make a difference. It's hard to balance Ratio vs. Base because they influence different parts of the game.

I also think you missed the part where I mentioned that I think the CC and disruption potential alone is probably enough to get Ekko picked as a tank, even if his bases were abysmally low, as proven by Riot's numerous attempts to lower base and raise ratio and him still getting played as a tank quite often.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Actually, the best tanks scale with tank stats, gain them, have cc, or are juggernauts.

Poppy DrMundo Chogath Nasus TahmKench Taric Blitzcrank Rammus Darius Malphite

Ekko had CC, but not a huge amount like Alistar. He scaled with HP in the way that the more he had, the more he could lose. The stun and slows added to the problem, along with base damage.

trash sion1 votes

I'd argue that Ekko has a similar amount of CC to a lot of tanks. Alistar has a knockback and an AoE knockup, whereas Ekko currently has two slows and an AoE stun. Given, Ekko's CCs can be reduced by tenacity because they aren't displacements, but I can argue that two slows and a self speed-up are equivalent to a single target knockback and that an AoE stun is similar to an AoE knockup. I guess you could argue that Ali's are easier to land, but Ekko's shield kind of mitigates the discrepancy a bit.

Regardless, his R does kind of scale with HP, given that it restores 20% of his HP and the more that he has, the more it restores by number.

FancyKiwi1 votes

The moment when people just start building frozen mallet on him after the change.

AirKingNeo1 votes

His kit has some problems and yes they are numbers.

Passive slow is being removed, and they probably buffed the speed up too. (If they don't he's unplayable.)

His kit is still disruptor like so expect AP bruiser not assassin. (Abyssal, GLP, Rylai, hell Nashors if offensive, and maybe 1-2 tank items.) Which I'm kinda fine with. (Like I know you don't want him building tank but his damage is so delayed he needs tank stats and Hourglass isn't very tank so yes he will build Deadmans.)

Ult needs to be a flat heal based on AP, which they are doing.

His E has too much range.

His base damages need to be buffed and his cooldowns raised. (Literally just revert to BEFORE YOU LOWERED HIS COOLDOWNS, every cooldown buff and damage nerf on his Q and E.)

DunkinNoobs1 votes

The term "Tank Ekko" is a misnomer regardless. Even when he was building nothing but tank items, it was still bruiser Ekko because that's how he was played. And bruiser Ekko benefitted enormously from having such insane sticking power, to the point where it eclipsed his AP builds.

More from Gameplay

More by trash sion