Can we fix Shyvana's Ultimate?

trash sion·Sep 17, 2016·88 votes·3,545 views

@Meddler because I forgot you can't edit titles.

I'm tired of ulting has Shyvana and going right through an enemy, or only carrying them for a short while before going through them regardless. The hitbox is wonky and you never know if you're actually going to catch someone in it. Shyvana sucks because I can't just farm to 6 and gank like most farming junglers, because if I rely on my R to gank, I'll somehow miss someone in the middle of the hitbox and look autistic.

Tl;Dr Can we make Shyvana's R hitbox ACTUALLY match the area in which she will carry an enemy?

71 Comments

aqours fanboySep 17, 201612 votes

Can we @Meddler please, it bugs me exponentially when I want to gank and drag my opponent to my laner and it just WHIFFS when I'm literally on TOP of the man.

Oh yeah can't forget gettin' stopped by a god damn Wind Wall and stupid ass CC EVEN THOUGH I'M A GOD DAMN DRAGON AND SHOULD BE AN UNSTOPPABLE FORCE WHILE BECOMING ONE.

trash sionSep 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Can we @Meddler please, it bugs me exponentially when I want to gank and drag my opponent to my laner and it just WHIFFS when I'm literally on TOP of the man.

Oh yeah can't forget gettin' stopped by a god damn Wind Wall and stupid ass CC EVEN THOUGH I'M A GOD DAMN DRAGON AND SHOULD BE AN UNSTOPPABLE FORCE WHILE BECOMING ONE.

Got it, I'll add that to the title and maybe get some Red attention here.

EDIT: I lied, can't edit titles.

morris1Sep 17, 20163 votes

{quoted}

gettin' stopped by a god damn Wind Wall

wait wat

Captain AishiSep 17, 20163 votes

I haven't encountered this bug, but considering shyvana can stun herself if she Q's fiora's Riposte, it wouldn't surprise me if that was another bug...

AceBlackSep 17, 20164 votes

Don't forget Wind Wall can block Annie Ult and can block Talon's entire ult if even 1 blade hits the wall

:^).

morris1Sep 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Wind Wall can block Annie Ult

wait wat

HawkefireSep 18, 20161 votes

If you try to summon tibbers on top of wind wall, the spell will go on cool down and tibbers will not be summoned.

69469238DEL1Sep 17, 201611 votes

Seriously this needs to be fixed, this would improve her ganking potential in a big way

DraygenBiscuitSep 17, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hunted Horror,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vULmHoIc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-09-17T14:49:02.053+0000)

Seriously this needs to be fixed, this would improve her ganking potential in a big way

Honestly I was kinda hoping for a Shyvanna rework, her moves are old and not really that special. I mean sure she can turn into a dragon, that's awesome, but she is really getting outshined mechanically by a lot of other champions.

69469238DEL1Sep 17, 201626 votes

I actually like her kit, anything better might overtune her on account of the fact she has amazing early game combat stats, but her passive needs to change for sure.

"Bonus armor and mr"

Wow what a fun and unique passive.

Doctor JarvisSep 17, 201611 votes

But the bonus is bonus-er when she's in dragon form. Its very fun and unique.

morris1Sep 17, 20167 votes

/s or else the boards hivemind will get angered

DecritSep 18, 20161 votes

Also double hit attack modifier

wow

much attacks

Mira Arya EntheSep 17, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I was kinda hoping for a Shyvanna rework, her moves are old and not really that special. I mean sure she can turn into a dragon, that's awesome, but she is really getting outshined mechanically by a lot of other champions.

No. The champion works fine, she has issues with her R. If she is reworked Riot will take a fundamentally fun and functional design and pull a Mord/Skarner and completely change the identity of the champion for the sake of change and nothing else.

Spaceman5pffSep 17, 20162 votes

She isn't very fun for people on the receiving end. You either kill her before she gets on you, or get killed when she gets on you.

Don't take this the wrong way because I love shyvana, it just.... could use some work on the whole interaction thing.

Mira Arya EntheSep 17, 20164 votes

{quoted}

She isn't very fun for people on the receiving end. You either kill her before she gets on you, or get killed when she gets on you.

Don't take this the wrong way because I love shyvana, it just.... could use some work on the whole interaction thing.

So a melee champion? Sorry but melee champions are suppose to destroy ranged champions if they get in range. Remember range itself is an advantage.

Spaceman5pffSep 18, 20165 votes

Oh, I understand this. The way she does it, however, is much less interactive than many other melee champions. Olaf dodgeable q's RekSai Linear dashes into small knockup Shen dodgeable taunt

Shyvana Run at you fast-move...

She kinda falls in the Udyr-Volibear category where you just stat-check people.

SincarnationSep 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Oh, I understand this. The way she does it, however, is much less interactive than many other melee champions. dodgeable q's Linear dashes into small knockup dodgeable taunt

Run at you fast-move...

She kinda falls in the Udyr-Volibear category where you just stat-check people.

... You can't just mention the one aspect of their kits in a vacuum. Shyvana has 2 options to get onto someone run at you or ult you. She has no CC to stick to people, the very nature of this makes her incredibly vulnerable to ANY CC. Olaf, yeah you can dodge the chain slows, but you can ignore the whole ult speed boost + cc immunity literally preventing anyone from stopping him once he is on a target. Reksai, having a gap closer is a huge advantage by itself not to mention the knockup on repeat. Shen, Again gap closer + cc is far harder to deal with that someone running at you.

Shyvana has straightforward gameplay, but it has plenty of interactions just not for Shyv. The opponent has plenty of tools and ways to stop her, and she doesnt really have a lot/any tools to stop them.

Surr20plzSep 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I was kinda hoping for a Shyvanna rework, her moves are old and not really that special. I mean sure she can turn into a dragon, that's awesome, but she is really getting outshined mechanically by a lot of other champions.

Yeah rework.

This is a champion that turns into a dragon. There is a lot of potential here.

Gosh DarnSep 17, 20166 votes

Must be the tenth time I'm commenting in a Shyvana ult bug thread in the past year. I made my own thread probably 6+ months ago by now. The hitbox is absolutely fucked, don't even go by the indicator AT ALL. Besides the fact that it's far narrower and shorter than it shows, it also has some area right in front of Shyvana where it won't hit anything. That's right. If someone is directly in front of you, not to the side, not behind you, but directly in front of you, you can miss them, dealing no damage and no dragging.

Captain AishiSep 17, 20165 votes

I once had a gnar bounce off of me with his E during my ult dash and he didn't take any damage or get interrupted from it... it was pretty sad

Mira Arya EntheSep 17, 20164 votes

Upvote from Shyvana main. Her hitbox on her ult has been a complaint since she was released, Rito still hasn't fixed it. Just like her ult being stopped by every CC in the game.

LordForrestSep 18, 20163 votes

I love that this threads keep popping up every few months. /s They have talked about her ult numerous times.

She only pushes people she connects with 250 units towards her landing location
Her hitbox does not include her wings for the purpose of the ult, it literally is just her body that will connect with people.
She is intended to be interrupted by cc

Yes, there is some wonkiness in her ult, but most of it is intended for balance reasons, because of how powerful her base kit is. Basically to make her ult more reliable would necessitate power removal from her basic abilites, which to be honest is all shyvana is about. Her ult is merely a means to strengthen her abilites.

trash sionSep 18, 20161 votes

I really would prefer a more reliable ult in exchange for less power on her base abilites, and here's why.

As it stands, Shyvana has a set amount of power on her base abilities. That amount of damage is easy to estimate when it comes to deciding if you should go in on an enemy or not. However, you have to prepare for the worst case scenario in which your ultimate doesn't connect and may actually take you away from your target.

What I'm getting at is, to be a successful Shyvana, you have to only put yourselves in situations where your base kit would be enough to kill someone, just in case your ultimate whiffs. If your ultimate does land, now it's overkill and you've likely missed out on situations where, with your ult, you could have killed someone but were too afraid that it wouldn't do what it should.

I would gladly take a compensation nerf to her base kit for a more reliable ult. That way, she would have a higher routine damage output in a full combo, without having to account for the random chance that your Ult doesn't work properly and you don't have the damage to finish the enemy off otherwise.

LordForrestSep 19, 20161 votes

Uh, its not a random chance that her ult won't work. If it didn't work, chances are you missed.

Besides even though her ult does damage, its not generally used to deal damage. It is more common to use her ult as a gap close, gank over a wall, or an escape. Really other then the dash part of her ult you mainly use it to get the improved abilities and passive. The only people who need her ult for damage are Wizard Lizard players.

Honestly i am confused by why you are asking for this, because to make her ult reliable in the way you want would require a kit rework just so she doesn't become just an ult. Basically it would make her warwick, only really useful for his ult. Guess what, hes next up on the Champion Update schedule for pretty much that exact reason. As it stands Shyv's kit is good as it is and i would rather keep what we have instead of nerfing her just so her ult can be reliable.

trash sionSep 19, 20161 votes

I kind of alluded to this in my previous reply, but even if you aren't using the ult for damage, the knockback would give you time for 2-3 more autos and a few more seconds of burnout damage. That's a lot of damage with a Titanic Hydra and Bloodrazor. Because of its unreliability, you have to go into a gank expecting to not have that extra damage, so it seems a bit unfair that you have to bank on a chunk of her damage not being able to connect to gank successfully

As for your Warwick comment, there's a bit of a difference between a ~2 second supress that deals 350 base damage with a 200% AD scaling that applies On-hits 5 times and a short AoE knockback with 425 base and 70% scaling in a stat she doesn't even commonly build. A simple change to make the cast range box match how wide the actual ultimate is and a mention in the tooltip of how far Shyvana drags the targets is all I ask. It's simply a QoL change, not a gameplay buff.

Sure, Rito could increase the hitbox to match the cast indicator and make Shyvana drag her target the entire duration, because those changes would match the current indicators in this iteration of her ult, but that would be a gameplay buff. I don't care if the gameplay changes, I just want clarity and for everything to match up.

LordForrestSep 19, 20161 votes

They are only CCed while being dragged, so i don't know where these extra autos are coming from unless, you are referring to dragging them further away from safety. Besides you are forgetting that she is ganking an ally's lane, who either has cc and/or damage that combine with yours should quickly drain the enemies health bar. You make it sound like she is the only one doing anything. Also on you don't have to ult the entire distance, you can make it shorter if necessary to avoid overshooting the target.

Well, you never said that you just want a clearer picture of her current hitbox for her ult. I was under the impression that you wanted the hitbox to match her model and drag them the entire distance. Which if made, the power it grants would basically make her Warwick because her base kit would need to be nerfed in to a lackluster state and only really be used for her ult. An ult that could reposition the entire enemy team.

I would have to look at it again, but i think the indicator is only as wide as her body, which is the actually hitbox. Not her wings. I can't give you a definite answer, because i never use it to judge, so i don't pay attention to it.

MysticFlameHazeSep 18, 20161 votes

then this is a clarity issue, which should be changed

LordForrestSep 19, 20161 votes

Yeah, it is a clarity issue, but its not the only one. Honestly Riot does a terrible job of explaining the finer points of abilities and items on their website, let alone in client. You really need to check the wiki to get most information.

I am honestly hoping that with the new client that they will have it built into it, but we will see.

DrProfVibeCheckSep 17, 20162 votes

Her ult hit box DOES suck, but think of it as a gap closer or extra damage. Your ult as shyvana should be used to either 1: turn your single target attacks into AoE attacks, 2: add a bit of burst to finish off an opponent or 3: use it as a form of movement.

Shyvana's ult's main focus isn't to cc, but it is part of her kit. I agree that there needs to be some fixes to it, but Shyv's ult is ok as it is.

SkaiserusSep 17, 20162 votes

Shyvana's ultimate would be more of a farm to 6 jungler, then flash behind the laner and push them to the ally laner. Without this, Shyvana may as well be one of the weakest junglers due to no cc for ganking.

DrProfVibeCheckSep 17, 20162 votes

You can buy chilling smite just for that. You may not have CC, but you do have a speed up, a gapcloser, and a hella ton of damage.

Besides, shyv should only gank when an opportunity arises. Its hard for her to force ganks, but if an enemy is far enough from tower, her damage could force a flash.

People also have to realise that farm junglers CAN EFFECT THE GAME IN OTHER WAYS THAN GANKING. Counterjungling, objective control, split push, those are all options.

Last point, I AGREE COMPLETELY THAT THE HITBOX IS WONKY. Im just saying, Shyv isnt a shit jungler because she cant gank as well as others at 6.

SkaiserusSep 18, 20162 votes

Yes, but you have to admit... Shes one of those junglers that cant gank correctly due to this bug. Leaving the laners starving.

ModAcademy KaynSep 18, 20162 votes

If you're going to make it reliable, you're going to need to take some power elsewhere.

KinetikaSep 18, 20162 votes

Like they did with Poppy, Gnar, and Azir?

ModAcademy KaynSep 18, 20161 votes

I'm confused on what you mean?

KinetikaSep 18, 20161 votes

I mean those are three champs who have a similar mechanic on their ult...they aim at a champ (or group of champs), use their R, and knock back the enemies reliably (and way, way more than Shyvana does). They didn't take power from these champs as you've suggested they would need to from Shyvana, if she were granted a similar reliability.

ModAcademy KaynSep 18, 20161 votes

None of their R's include making themselves the hitbox... Azir's and Poppy's are projectiles and Gnar's R is just like Oriannas in terms of targeting.

You also seem to misunderstand. New champs today are made with reliability in mind, so they come out with that reliability in their power budget. Shyv is a fighter/juggernaut/bruiser. Why does she need the power to engage and potentially drag an entire team? That's an ability a tank would have, not a Juggernaut.

KinetikaSep 18, 20161 votes

Gnar can knock an entire team back AND stun them with his ult. He is the same class as Shyvana.

Poppy can knock and entire team halfway across the map...same class.

Shyvana being the hitbox makes the use of the ult much more dangerous than any of the champs mentioned, and yet it's less reliable.

You say that dragging an entire team is an ability that a tank should have, yet Azir can do exactly that and he's a mage.

Can you provide a logical argument that explains why Shyvanas ult, which is much riskier than the others mentioned, is less reliable?

ModAcademy KaynSep 18, 20161 votes

Gnar and Poppy are designed to do that. Shyv's purpose isn't to move a team a mile away, its to zone enemies and disrupt by being a threat, a threat with DPS.

And Shyv build tanky after an offense item or two. Azir is literally putting his life on the line to make a play with his ult, dying pretty fast if he makes a mistake. Shyv isn't risking jackshit. Her most popular builds involve lots of defense items meaning if she makes a mistake, she isn't as easily punishable. Even if Shyv didn't massively disrupt a team, she is in the middle of a fight where she wants to be.

KinetikaSep 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vULmHoIc,comment-id=000b000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-18T19:19:52.317+0000)

Gnar and Poppy are designed to do that. Shyv's purpose isn't to move a team a mile away, its to zone enemies and disrupt by being a threat, a threat with DPS.

And Shyv build tanky after an offense item or two.

So let me understand this correctly: You go from saying that Shyv's "purpose" is to zone enemies and be a threat with DPS, to LITERALLY in the next paragraph talking about how her ult is low risk and her best build is a tank build.

Which is it? Low risk tank or DPS? After the Devourer removal, she can't do both.

Either way, you are conveniently focusing on Azir, but everything you said about Shyv is applicable to Gnar & Poppy, but you dismiss it by stating that they're designed to do that, but Shyv isn't....

So two questions:

How are you certain that Shyv isn't designed to do this? I've been playing Shyv a long time, and that's exactly what she's designed to do.
How do you reconcile the fact that Shyv's ult (when hit correctly, which I do most of the time) does exactly what you're saying she isn't meant to do?

Fixing the hitbox isn't even a buff...it's a quality of life fix. It would change Shyv for the players that aren't really good at playing her, and possibly bring her back into the meta. Personally, I don't need it because when I miss my ult, I miss it because someone flashes or clicks a lantern. But Shyv deserves it, because there are other champs out there with similar ults that don't have the same handicap. If you disagree, fine, but don't make shit up to support your argument.

ModAcademy KaynSep 19, 20161 votes

It's no revelation that Squishies die from anything. Shyv only needs a damage item or two before she starts building tanky, like you'd see if you looked up her builds. She can be DPS and Tanky at the same time, since she's tanky enough to not die from anything, but enough damage to kill squishies, with items like Titanic, BorK, and Triforce, backed with Tank Items.

How am i focusing Azir? I brought him up once saying he needs to put his life on the line to Shurima Shuffle. And no, they're not applicable on Shyv. Gnar and Poppy are most certainly tanks, though in mini-form Gnar is more fighter like, since their abilites focus on DISRUPTING and CC'ing teams. Poppy has her wall to stop dashes, dash-slam, her Ult. Mega-Gnar has his W and R, meant to disrupt a team, and his jump to put himself into the fight, so he can cc fools.

Shyv is not applicable. Her ONLY cc is her ult, which is primarily a gap closer or an escape/meant to power up those abilities. When you think Shyvanna you do not think "Oh yeah, the champ whose primary purpose is to shove a team". No, you don't. Shyv is a fighter/juggernaut and like one, does not need to CC to back up her strong late game dueling.

And fixing the hitbox is a buff, not QoL. QoL is like adding the total damage a DoT ability has. (10 Damage a Sec/40 Damage total). "Fixing" a hitbox makes it more reliable is going to actually going to boost Shyv because she now traps enemies better, resulting in more kills, etc. A QoL doesn't bring people back into Meta, real buffs do.

Now, I'm not saying that Shyv doesn't deserve a buff or two, but you don't buff her into a classification she isn't. If she's struggling with dueling, buff her dueling, emphasize the strength instead of spreading it elsewhere.

KinetikaSep 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vULmHoIc,comment-id=000b00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-19T05:01:42.591+0000)

Shyv is not applicable. Her ONLY cc is her ult, which is primarily a gap closer or an escape/meant to power up those abilities. When you think Shyvanna you do not think "Oh yeah, the champ whose primary purpose is to shove a team". No, you don't. Shyv is a fighter/juggernaut and like one, does not need to CC to back up her strong late game dueling.

Yeah, I do think of her that way. I main Shyv. That's exactly why I main her. She has great teamfight initiation with her ult that PUSHES THE ENEMY BACK.

Again, you've contradicted yourself in the same paragraph. You said her only CC is her ult (the topic of the conversation here) and then you say she doesn't need CC to back up her late game dueling. She IS designed this way. You're just arguing to argue, not because you have a point.

ModAcademy KaynSep 19, 20161 votes

You're telling me you'd rather have a Shyv engage than someone like Naut? That Shyvana, a fighter, is defined by her ability (or thereof lack of) to shove people in a fight? Because that is not what Shyvana is defined by. She is defined by her tanky, hard to kite, DPS, not some mediocre engage that does not need to be buffed.

Let me clarify something which i may have mistyped. When i said

Shyv is a fighter/juggernaut and like one, does not need to CC to back up her strong late game dueling.

I had meant she did not need the CC brought on by a change of her Ult to make it more reliable. The CC she gets from her ult now is fine because her dueling powered is also really good. By giving her better CC and keeping the same dueling power, than you're just overloading it.

And just because you don't agree with my arguement, doesn't mean I don't have a point. That is twice you've said that I am not being logical but I have. Shyvana is a fighter, who has some CC with her ult, but that CC does NOT define her ult. What defines her ult is the fact that it upgrades her abilities and gets her into the fight.

Shyvana is NOT a tank and does not need a mass aoe engage. Look at all the Juggernauts (Darius, Garen, Illaoi, Mordekaiser, Skarner and Olaf), except for Skarner none of them are based around engaging teamfights. They're god like in teamfights, but they lack the mobility (dashes, not speed boosts so we're clear) and CC to engage them, usually relying on another member to start the fight.

Also let it be clear that catching someone out is not engage. You simply caught them out. Engaging is like Naut's Q, Malphite R, Kled R, etc. Those are abilities that FORCE people to fight. Catching someone out at least allows the enemy team to ditch that caught out dude. Shyvana may be a variation of a Juggernaut with some engage, but engage is NOT what defines Shyvana.

KinetikaSep 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vULmHoIc,comment-id=000b0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-19T21:36:34.893+0000)

Shyvana is NOT a tank and does not need a mass aoe engage.

Then why does she have one?

ModAcademy KaynSep 19, 20161 votes

She doesn't. It's not an engage for her team, just a way to put herself into a fight. It's main purpose is not to engage a teamfight, but to get farther into the back line to kill carries.

KinetikaSep 19, 20161 votes

She does. Seeing as how there's like a 100k mastery point gap between you and me playing Shyvana, I'm gonna go with me being the more experienced and knowledgeable Shyv player, and end this discussion here.

ModAcademy KaynSep 19, 20161 votes

And as a Tank player who knows and recognizes what an engage is, I'm reopening the discussion. Hey, let's also give amazing dueling power to Naut, Sion and Malphite to go along with their engage, despite them only being tanks.

Shyvana is only a fighter, she does not need tank like engage.