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Get this "late game champion" bullshit out of here

pwc2016··1 votes·917 views

Riot is dogshit at making champions that scale. Why? Because they give these champions everything they need to survive early game while saying 'oh but they are weak early". No they are not.

Kayle is not weak early. Between Corrupting Pot, Biscuits, and an accelerated Vamp scepter from Klepto, she can easily just out sustain her lane opponent. Her Q REFUNDS MANA. Why? Her W gives back health and gives her move speed. WHY? Why are we giving "weak' early game champions tools that eliminate that weakness? Her Q gives her SO MUCH mana so she never goes OOM, and between her W and potions, she just doesn't die in lane, and the same W lets her outrun her opponent's trade pattern.

Vlad has the same issue where if he starts shield, he has so much sustain in lane plus his W gives him a free escape. This wouldn't be as bad, but the same ability also gives him MORE MS. Why? Have it slow him down.

A lot of people will say, "BUT YOU JUST HAVE TO GANK THEM". First of all, that's not a valid argument. If the only counterplay to a champion is "ganking", that's not counterplay because every champion can get ganked or get ganks. The only way to shut down a Vlad or Kayle is to gank them, which shows to me that they have literally no counterplay within the lane. Secondly, both these champion can easily use an ability to either try to escape or flat out avoid the gank. Why? If ganks are their weakness, then take away their ability to avoid them. That's like giving Xerath an escape tool-it's utter bullshit.

This game feels like shit to play. I just got shit on as a Camille by a Kayle. Why should a weak early game champion like Kayle take half health from a full combo (E-Stun-Q-W-Q) and back off for half a second, then come back with MORE health, effectively winning the trade? Should she not be punished for taking a trade early? Because if she's not losing trades super hard early on, then she is NOT an early game champion. Same with Vlad-he can just empower Q and win a lot of trades...but then why does he have strong late if his early is already fine? It's utter bullshit and we NEED to call Riot out on this.

8 Comments

Syrile4 votes

Ehhh.... Early game champions are the problem. Games are over fast right now.

ßlameMyADC2 votes

As a former Kayle main (on multiple Accounts)

The last patch actually decimated Kayle to the point where I expect her WR to drop significantly.

Kayle is terribly weak early. Her strength early to "survive" early is her sustain. Anything that bursts her out of existence like her being out of position and a Renekton catching her, will probably cost her a life.

Being a good Kayle, means knowing when not to fight and when to accept minion loss over feeding. Early kills on Kayle can throw her off by several minutes, making her reach late game never/much later.

The issue I see with Late Game champs is actually that games are over so fast nowadays, most players (even some in low Plat) do not understand Phaseplay. For them it's "Laning and then you end the game". Kayle is weak, it's a matter of counterpick and jungle assist.

If the Kayle decides to hug turret, you probably should have picked something able to towerdive and burst.

Syrile2 votes

Here is the thing... If you want to punish late game champions, pick an early game champion. And actually perform like an early game champion. Your power-spikes come much earlier than their's do and you can easily act like it. Renekton can kill Kayle early game easily.

Baby Ghoul2 votes

By just reading the title, I thought you were going to criticize how strong early game champions are now and how they no longer fall off.

There is no longer a late game.

klin5371 votes

kayle is getting nerfed.

I know what you mean, I've seen kayles dumpster even freaking renektons early, and quinns getting outpoked. Even done both of the above myself. Trust me Riot knows that she's broken and she will be nerfed, dw about it.

Hayaishi21 votes

Let me tell you how the whole "weak early game" works, you are right about it being bullshit, because the counterplay is not on your end, its on your jungler. Kayle is weak in fights outside of lane because her sustain and poke do nothing when your jungler is forcing fights around objectives It's the same thing with Vladbut thats the issue, your jungler/teammates have to force fights to actually make her fall behind but in the laning phase and this just isn't consistent in soloqueue (which is the game mode that matters) So Kayle/Vlad get to have good laning phases but weak outside of them early game.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

This game feels like shit to play. I just got shit on as a Camille by a Kayle. Why should a weak early game champion like Kayle take half health from a full combo (E-Stun-Q-W-Q) and back off for half a second, then come back with MORE health, effectively winning the trade? Should she not be punished for taking a trade early? Because if she's not losing trades super hard early on, then she is NOT an early game champion. Same with Vlad-he can just empower Q and win a lot of trades...but then why does he have strong late if his early is already fine? It's utter bullshit and we NEED to call Riot out on this.

Consider playing an early game champion if you want to dunk on Kayle early game.

Because Camille is a late game champion as well, if not a hypercarry like Kayle is.

Kayle's also frankly probably overtuned in solo queue at least right now, and Camille is not.

But she's not actually all that strong in lane, she has tools to not be completely helpless but she isn't good. Nor does a champion being late game always mean that an early game champion beats them in lane. Darius is stronger in lane than Jax but loses that match-up due to how their kits interact.

WoonStruck1 votes

Uh, Vlad gets MS for like a split second on his W.

If you're complaining about Vlad mobility you have an issue.

Also, he has plenty of counterplay in lane. Buy phage+boots and watch as he's literally unable to approach the wave without you running him down, with nothing he can do about it. Laugh at the ones that took magical footwear and are forced to suffer for 12 minutes.

Or buy boots+a little MR if you have any mobility and do the same exact thing.

Oh, he used W? Well he's forced to take a bad back timing, stay low hp, or risk you all-inning again while his pool comes off of its massive CD and dying.

If you want to see a real bullshit 'lategame' champ, look at ryze.

Tankiest ranged champion via base stats, strong early trading, obscene waveclear, basically no CD on E/Q and massive scaling on it, never oom, and has both CC and good in-fight mobility.

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