Could we hit Udyr where it matters?

LatetotheRace··7 votes·3,770 views

His kit is quite overloaded, and his build paths nowadays are down right atrocious. But ya know what? I'm not gonna touch either of those. I instead want to touch on his mana costs. All of his abilities share the same mana costs at levels 1-5 47 / 44 / 41 / 38 / 35 respectively. This is effectively if Evelynn had 4 different types of hate spike, and as you can imagine that would be pretty excessive.....

I propose we either increase his per ability costs, OR touch his mana regen/max mana pool. Whereas I recognize that 7.5 – 15.2 Regen and 270 – 780 pool isn't that excessive it would force him to build in an effort to compensate. This would hopefully move him off of Devourer and Echo in an effort to gain a larger mana pool. Likely he would land back on Cinderhulk where he could use the synergy of bonus HP with item 3800

Let's just pick a style of play. Either tank or chaser/semi-squishy fighter. Not somewhere in the middle, this isn't slavery and there will be no compromise. (If you don't get this reference please take it up with your school's history department.)

In all reality I just want to see him no longer being able to fight till the cows come home (seemingly infinite mana), or see his damage sharply reduced as he does the damage of a fighter with the mobility of a duelist, and the health/stats of a tank. (plus that stun.) Something has to give ;_; the only thing he's missing is a dash. (I you dare........ I..... Ffs use your imagination.)

41 Comments

RiotRiot Sotere17 votes

When we were looking at toning him down, mana was a natural place to look. He seems to be less gated this season than in previous ones, which helps him clear faster, gank more, etc. We opted against it, because to make it meaningful in bringing him back in line, it would have felt pretty terrible.

Angry Monster7 votes

not going to lie, I do not care if udyr players suffer.

Cosnirak7 votes

And yet mages get gated by that very same very unfun mechanic constantly...

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

And now they are ensuring that it will happen all game long by gutting mana regen in favor of flat mana. We used to be ok late game at least.

Spicy Rice1 votes

At least they have range....

Cosnirak3 votes

Isn't that what all the move speed boosts, higher base speed (and higher base almost all stats honestly), shield, life steal, low cd stun, and ranged aoe damage Udyr gets is in part making up for?

Quepha3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fxOy22K7,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-04-11T06:25:27.636+0000)

When we were looking at toning him down, mana was a natural place to look. He seems to be less gated this season than in previous ones, which helps him clear faster, gank more, etc. We opted against it, because to make it meaningful in bringing him back in line, it would have felt pretty terrible.

Doesn't running out of mana always feel pretty terrible?

Sohleks2 votes

Could it be that item 1039 is soo strong. Even without the massive mana regen, the life leach effect is strong enough over item 1041 if your jungler has persistent enough AoE for someone like Rumble. Or pheonix Udyr. He benefits very well from both the aoe life leach and mana.

The thing is. It's not really essential item 1039 = item 1041 ; quality of life item 1039 gives is nice. Struggling in the jungle or having limited picks isn't fun. But it is an imbalance IMO

LatetotheRace1 votes

Oo, A red post. I'm truly flattered, even though you don't agree with my opinion. Do you believe that udyr is in a good state? Because to me right now it seems like he's still incredibly dominant with his kit being as all encompassing as it currently is. His strong wave clear, tankyness, cc and very safe gank/counter jungle potential. i could be wrong, but I'm still curious.

Crowe Stalker4 votes

Have you looked at nerfing his Movement Speed at all? maybe hit the passive or his base? 360 (345 base +15 from passive) plus Bear Stance (up to 35% bonus that ignores unit collision and can be spammed effectively with 40% CDR) plus any movement speed items (usually item 1306 plus item 3078 or item 1414 but sometimes item 3100) seems pretty freaking ridiculous to me.

I mean, by comparison, Mordekaiser who has no CC or Mobility in his kit, is balanced around 325 because item 3116 item 3078 item 1306 is his core build)

Spicy Rice3 votes

the thing about nerfing his movespeed, is that its his only way of affecting anything. Have you seen an udyr player who was slowed? It the saddest thing ever

RiotRiot Sotere8 votes

It is super sad. Definitely he is happier about getting movement speed in this meta than in previous ones. Echoes, Swifties, Alacrity, Zz'rot, all felt better than they did before the season swap. As an Udyr player, the one thing I identify with is running incredibly fast in a straight line. If there are walls, maybe you get away. If there aren't, it's Udyr's domain. Doesn't mean his move speed is untouchable but it does put a slight damper on nerfing it.

Anywho, he's not on our radar for nerfs right now, so we're just waxing theoretic.

Crowe Stalker2 votes

Have you seen a Singed that's slowed? He can't even get anywhere near that MS while ulting either.

DeathBurst1 votes

Not a good example... Singed is not really the kind of guys that try to run straight at you.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

He's still supposed to be a champion that runs circles around you (something he can't do as effectively lately because League of Mobility) either he's a nuisance during a teamfight (and rarely a good one unless he's fed) or he's a split-pusher (which isn't effective in a game with Udyr)

DeathBurst1 votes

Hmm, I may be off, but my understanding of Udyr was that:

  • during laning, he wants YOU to run at him, not the opposite. If you don't want to, he'll just farm.
  • during team-fights, he stays near his squishies and peel for them, with the poison activated to have some ambient damage
  • during splitpushes (and of course, not in a game where there are people like Udyr), he just want to attract 2+ people and making them lose time -- not actually destroy towers in 5 seconds. Meanwhile, his team is supposed to use the 4v3 on the other side of the map.
TotalJerk1 votes

I often wait until right before Udyr can reach his target before I stun/knockup/root him to maximize his frustration.

Spicy Rice1 votes

As an udyr player, i hate you. As a sane player, i applaud you for actually realizing how to beat udyr.

TotalJerk1 votes

I do this even when I could've just peeled him off my target from a distance. Sometimes I even deliberately let him almost catch up so I can stun him right outside melee range. I just like dangling hope in front of him and ripping it away right before he can grasp it.

Spicy Rice1 votes

You're a monster

[zombie-nunu-tears]

TotalJerk2 votes

Well that's what you get for picking Udyr into Morgana and thinking you get to play League of Legends.

DeathBurst1 votes

I'm not even convinced that Triforce is core for Morde... I usually build Deadman's Plate or Luden, if I really want MS.

The difference about the two champs is astounding, but it's not only about MS. Morde has a lot more damage, and can be more bursty. I wouldn't mind a bit more MS on Morde, but it would be ridiculous with Udyr-levels of MS.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

We build differently, but I'm not asking for Udyr-levels of MS on Morde (God help us all) but I do think while Mordekaiser does have more damage, he is really easy to catch. Meanwhile Udyr can be extremely difficult to catch when he gets his MS item and Bear stance maxed and can still do some pretty solid DPS when he does catch you.

I'm hoping Riot will consider making running from/catching Udyr less of a pain in the ass.

Sniper 09 votes

He's actually very mana gated early... lol

LatetotheRace5 votes

Then by all means let's focus more on his late game, that is when he's a massive problem afterall.

Boulderox2 votes

Vayne Akali Azir Brand DrMundo Kalista Singed all late game as well, point being, in season 5 all of riots "balance" was around nerfing early and buffing late, a large portion are already late game champs but see very rare play due to the games being won mid game.... And udyr nerf to his W was criminal for pete sake.... his r is just flat out too good for most of his kit, due to the ability of burst and aoe pushing power alone, but attacking his defense and shield... too harsh man...

Crowe Stalker1 votes

Singed is a mid-game champion. By later you either have resistance to his base damage and he's worthless or he's building squishy and dies in five seconds. He doesn't have enough item slots to be a Late-Gamer unless he's a devoted Split-Pusher which leaves his team in a constant 4v5.

Boulderox1 votes

idk though, the idea of singed is to push towers, and proxy waves, 9/10 singed does awful score wise, but the idea is to be a total pain in the ass, and just run away. his power comes when he hits 6 yes, but then again could be wrong honestly (looking at op.gg, WOW was i wrong....)

Best Ekko NA6 votes

Honestly Udyr already pays enough without his mana being destroyed even more. He has no ranged abilities and outside of split pushing or picking people off there's little to nothing he can do to contribute to a team fight. The only place Udyr is remotely powerful is against teams of randoms who are disorganized or have bad enough mechanics to where Udyr can just run around dodging all the enemies abilities. When it comes down to that point, you pretty much deserve to lose to Udyr because he's simply outplaying you and it has nothing to do with the champion being any stronger than the enemies.

If you actually do some research you can see that Udyr has NEVER been strong in the LCS having very little pick rate and a terrible win rate when picked.

http://lol.gamepedia.com/Udyr_-_The_Animal_Spirit#Competitive_Usage

Udyr is the "Katarina" of the Jungle and I see nothing wrong with that. Even if he snowballs he can be dealt with assuming that you understand guarding his split pushing and keeping him stuck with his team where he will struggle the most. If you or your team is outplayed and loses fights, well that's just apart of playing the game.. you learn from your mistakes and you try again next game.

Eyesack2 votes

{quoted}

His kit is quite overloaded, and his build paths nowadays are down right atrocious. But ya know what? I'm not gonna touch either of those. I instead want to touch on his mana costs. All of his abilities share the same mana costs at levels 1-5 47 / 44 / 41 / 38 / 35 respectively. This is effectively if Evelynn had 4 different types of hate spike, and as you can imagine that would be pretty excessive.....

I propose we either increase his per ability costs, OR touch his mana regen/max mana pool. Whereas I recognize that 7.5 – 15.2 Regen and 270 – 780 pool isn't that excessive it would force him to build in an effort to compensate. This would hopefully move him off of Devourer and Echo in an effort to gain a larger mana pool. Likely he would land back on Cinderhulk where he could use the synergy of bonus HP with item 3800

Let's just pick a style of play. Either tank or chaser/semi-squishy fighter. Not somewhere in the middle, this isn't slavery and there will be no compromise. (If you don't get this reference please take it up with your school's history department.)

In all reality I just want to see him no longer being able to fight till the cows come home (seemingly infinite mana), or see his damage sharply reduced as he does the damage of a fighter with the mobility of a duelist, and the health/stats of a tank. (plus that stun.) Something has to give ;_; the only thing he's missing is a dash. (I you dare........ I..... Ffs use your imagination.)

personally i think pure melee fighter champs should be able to fight as long as they damn well please. Fighters in general are in a bad spot right now and udyr BARELY saw competitive play and even then he did terrible, lets not nerf udyr anymore

Hahahahyena1 votes

Yes when udyr BEARLY (kappa) got picked he lost a game when played by kirei against liquid, let's be honest it dig didn't stand a chance against liquid, then we have tl playing udyr against immortals, that crashed and burned, and then udyr was also played by clg against immortals and WON, an undefeated team lost to CLG and udyr, like the odds of that happening were the same odds of dig winning against tl with udyr. He is too easy to play and has very little risk with higher reward

Boulderox1 votes

his mana is atrocious early.... and the fact he is being repeatedly nerfed is still baffling me.... sejuani level even....

Quepha1 votes

The nerfs in 6.7 were very effective against him. Udyr's winrate dropped significantly and it's looking like Phoenix Udyr/early pressure Udyr is pretty much dead.

Dessem1 votes

I'm fairly sure "we" can't do much of anything, but Riot could.

Seriously, why do people write from a "we" perspective, as if everyone's part of the game's design?

Hahahahyena1 votes

Honestly his mana isn't the problem, its his CD, with just a bit of CDR he just face rolls his keyboard to either hunt down anyone without a dash/flash or can never be caught because of his passive/bear stance (which I honestly don't get why he has movement speed on his bear stance of its already on his passive, the stun is enough)

LostFr0st1 votes

Udyr doesn't want to stack health though by default of his design.
He shouldn't be buying cinder+rightious glory. He wants to stack cdr, mana, and resistances for more turtles and to keep his passive stacked through changing stances. His passive is what separates good and bad Udyrs. What does item 3800 offer him?
The closest you could get is to make him want item 3110 again, but item 3025 is so much better.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

This is the dumbest thread I have ever seen. (Not lying) You clearly have never played Udyr and have no clue how he works. You're opinion is biased and excessive.

RottedApples1 votes

aside from the fact udyr doesn't want to health stack (as mentioned in other responses) the nerfs he got already hit him hard enough and he definitely doesn't need anymore. I'm not an udyr main or anything, hell i don't even play this champion, but I don't want to see him get nerfed into complete unviability and await a rework, and right now, more nerfs are starting to risk that happening.

FFiresoul1 votes

actually, the latest nerf hit him pretty hard. his early game is significantly weaker than all of the A tier junglers now, and he has to build less tanky in order to have relevant damage in the mid game.

like practically every Udyr main has said, it's not the champion--it's the items/build path/meta that allowed him to become strong--and even then, it's just in solo queue where people usually don't know how to deal with his split push.

Apocalyopto1 votes

i notice alot of ppl have mixed feelings, personally as an udyr main, i think the nerfs to him were exactly what he needed, pheonix stance was too good at too many things with the buildpath he had access too, personally i have almost exclusively played tiger stance which alot of ppl criticize me for because it's not the "meta" but i have won more games splitpushing in tiger stance with a titanic hydra and i find it better suited to splitpush. pheonix stance was just too good with current items in game, but i was very surprised at the hit to turtle AND health rate at the same time, i think that was a little overboard, hit turtle OR health rate not both

Troy2426211 votes

He's the opposite of overloaded. He's overtuned to make up for the fact that his kit is absolutely horrible. Unfortunately, this means he's a walking stat stick that obliterates melees in a duel, so their counterplay more or less amounts to never interacting with him.

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