Every nerf to Tank Ekko
Is another reason not to build him as intended. You might have to just rework his kit in the future
Is another reason not to build him as intended. You might have to just rework his kit in the future
The thought of a CC assassin is failed from the beginning. If the CC is too good he's will be played as a tank who does damage, if the damage is too strong you get an assassin that can CC to death. There's no middle ground, both option are unhealthy for the game.
[{quoted}](name=Best Malz Molise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fqLEjHEu,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-08-24T16:03:11.709+0000)
The thought of a CC assassin is failed from the beginning. If the CC is too good he's will be played as a tank who does damage, if the damage is too strong you get an assassin that can CC to death. There's no middle ground, both option are unhealthy for the game.
Agreed, but in a realm of gameplay where there are champions that are supposed to do the exact same thing as you, coming up with an original interpretation of that thing for a kit can be pretty hard. So I guess we got a CC assassin, and people just prefer building it as a tank because of it's CC and inability to survive long enough to actually kill someone without backing out with ult
I know but Riot doesn't want to accept it. If we remove damage from Ekko what happens? He still brings tons of CC and heals. What if remove all CC, shields and heals? We get a very unreliable way of doing damage through Ulti, and enemy getting hit by return-Q. Ekko should tend towards being a tank by losing damage, Riot is doing a mess for mainting him an assassin while keeping tanks stuff.
[{quoted}](name=Best Malz Molise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fqLEjHEu,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-08-24T16:31:32.351+0000)
I know but Riot doesn't want to accept it. If we remove damage from Ekko what happens? He still brings tons of CC and heals. What if remove all CC, shields and heals? We get a very unreliable way of doing damage through Ulti, and enemy getting hit by return-Q. Ekko should tend towards being a tank by losing damage, Riot is doing a mess for mainting him an assassin while keeping tanks stuff.
I mean, look at Mordekaiser. CertainlyT (as high as he must have been to do so) redesigned Mordekaiser for being a botlane duo champion. He was obscenely broken, and now has been nerfed to the point of being caught between his solo lane aspect and duo lane aspect, and as someone who played Morde for two and a half seasons before that happened, his solo lane aspect just feels way too off for me, I just can't deal. I feel like Ekko might be headed towards the same fate
No Malzahar ended up as Mordekaiser. They didn't like him pushing mid always (Other mages can't push, he's the only one who pushes for Riot) so the rework maded him a frustrating push-bot straight from level 1 and made him shit on every melee mid. Now he rest in peace after being nerfed everywhere and then nerfing his problem (Passive). Ekko will be like Elise, Riot nerfed her base damage but consider her an early game jungler without touching her ratio, showing incompetence and resulting in her being weak. Also still no revert after nerfing her MS for the AP jungle item, and THEN nerfing the jungle item.
[{quoted}](name=Best Malz Molise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fqLEjHEu,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-24T16:51:18.841+0000)
No Malzahar ended up as Mordekaiser. They didn't like him pushing mid always (Other mages can't push, he's the only one who pushes for Riot) so the rework maded him a frustrating push-bot straight from level 1 and made him shit on every melee mid. Now he rest in peace after being nerfed everywhere and then nerfing his problem (Passive). Ekko will be like Elise, Riot nerfed her base damage but consider her an early game jungler without touching her ratio, showing incompetence and resulting in her being weak. Also still no revert after nerfing her MS for the AP jungle item, and THEN nerfing the jungle item.
Dude they did the exact same thing to Sion. They nerfed Sion's base damages and W pop time because he was too good with Cinderhulk, but then they nerfed Cinderhulk, and it's just like well okay. You nerfed the reason I was too strong, which made me balanced. Then you nerfed the item that was making me average, so now I'm below the curve. Why not just nerf the damn item if you were just going to nerf it anyway?
It was all planned. They have been itching for nerfing Malzahar into the ground for being an assassin/mobility counter and now he is some overnerfed mess that does very little reliable damage while having most of his damage on 1 hit voidlings, unless you build full AP no mana no hp glass cannon.
Malzahar is dead to me. Went from my main to something I hated.
It's funny because now one of the more reliable counters for those is a champion people love to hate specifically for the reason that she counters them. 
It's funny because now one of the more reliable counters for those is a champion people love to hate specifically for the reason that she counters them.
I hate annie just based on the stun. If it was shorter and I had an actual window to avoid her burst, I wouldn't hate playing against her nearly as much. As it stands, she's more of an assassin than a mage, the way she's played
Except burst =/= assassin, mobility = assassin.
The thing I hate most about the fucker is his Q. At early levels the outgoing damage is on par with other mid mages, and the incoming damage is just icing on the cake. The slow also starts at the high end of non-decaying kit slows in mid and then rapidly scales to bullshit levels.
It's one of those abilities that it good in literally every situation. Poke, waveclear, zoning, chasing, kiting, duels, team fights, etc. And it's basically spammable given it's forgiving mana cost.
The Q is bullshit. But also having two other slows that scale from 40-60% is what makes him so fucking broken. That's basically support tank level cc.
As someone who enjoys playing him as intended, this saddens me.
As someone who enjoys playing him as intended, this saddens me.
They just reduced his base AD by 4, and lowered the Threshhold for his missing health on auto from 30% to 20%. This is essentially going to make last hitting much harder, something Ekko in the middle lane was already having problems with against mages who could harass him out
Usually if they go aggressive is when you attack them. Either I farm in peace, or you're not going to either.
Instead of nerfing the %damage, they should just remove it entirely. Boom, problem solved. He doesn't need it as an AP assassin anyway.
[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fqLEjHEu,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-08-24T14:48:00.239+0000)
Instead of nerfing the %damage, they should just remove it entirely. Boom, problem solved. He doesn't need it as an AP assassin anyway.
Yes, his kit is very strange that way. Burst assassin with a DPS factor? In my opinion his kit would be much better and easier to balance if they removed both of his slows, increased the damage of his total burst, and left in the slow field / stun as sort of fall back plan like a lot of assassins have
[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fqLEjHEu,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-08-24T15:41:20.574+0000)
Yes, his kit is very strange that way. Burst assassin with a DPS factor? In my opinion his kit would be much better and easier to balance if they removed both of his slows, increased the damage of his total burst, and left in the slow field / stun as sort of fall back plan like a lot of assassins have
Ekko was released as the assassin who couldn't burst people. That's his intent. Riot classifies him as more of a Skirmisher than a slayer. His DPS is necessary because if he could burst people in one second and he has a ranged 1.75 second stun...that's OP.
[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fqLEjHEu,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-08-24T18:02:19.839+0000)
Ekko was released as the assassin who couldn't burst people. That's his intent. Riot classifies him as more of a Skirmisher than a slayer. His DPS is necessary because if he could burst people in one second and he has a ranged 1.75 second stun...that's OP.
Then they shouldnt have a problem with tank ekko since he builds like a skirmisher
[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fqLEjHEu,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-24T18:06:01.460+0000)
Then they shouldnt have a problem with tank ekko since he builds like a skirmisher
Really they don't. Riot only cares that it's balanced, and not crowding out other picks. They arn't going to completely trash Tankko Just because people hate his guts.
The only real problem is trying to balance multiple builds at one. And the big question I would ask is "Why isn't AP Ekko viable Right now?" (it might be meta, given that many Assassins arn't that good right now) I don't think his Q, has enough damage on it to act as a mage ability. (Magier aspects would encourage a glass cannon AP build.) Does his utility disproportionately encourage His Tankier builds? (This can actually be remedied without removing the utility. As a Utility Assassin, you scale it with AP like you would a Utility mage)
The last problem with the potential builds. Giving any champion, some level of Duality could increase their win rates at the higher levels of play, simply due to their ability to flex, and screwing with pick and ban.
Umm...are we not remembering the same release Ekko? Because his damage was significantly higher than it currently is, on top of having essentially no resource.
Umm...are we not remembering the same release Ekko? Because his damage was significantly higher than it currently is, on top of having essentially no resource.
Not talking about his kit. I'm talking about Riot's discussion when they released him. They literally said "Okay so why would we make an assassin who can't kill people. Well, we want Ekko to be a champion with more utility than other assassins who has to dash in and out of fights".
Right, and on release they gave him assassin damage to go with it.
Just something I thought id throw out there.
Current "tank ekko" is actually just a bruiser. It builds 1 dmg item maybe two (Triforce and maybe abyssal usually) and then goes tank, and late game his dmg with this build falls off really hard against anything with a few defensive items, especially due to his bad ad scaling. Similarly Jax and Irelia build 1 or two dmg items and then go tank and have escapes and cc too. Is bruiser ekko annoying? Yes. Is he impossible to deal with when ahead? Often times yes. Is he broken? Personally idk, but since he was initially intended to be an "assassin" everyone gets super mad that ekko isnt being one.
Maybe his destiny is to be an ap diver or skirmisher instead of an assassin (something like jarvan/vi/diana or either fiora/yasuo/irelia/jax) that deals decent consistent dmg and is often not full glass cannon. In my opinion ap assasin ekko would still be somewhat viable (like ad jarvan) but unless his dmg becomes more reliable, specifically his Q, he will always tends towards tankier builds that let him get his dmg off. And maybe this diving or skirmisher role with the option of full ap as just an optional build can be accepted as ok by riot and the community.
As it turns out, giving an assassin tiny mana costs, tons of mobility, AoE CC/Damage, sustain (In the form of a heal and a shield), utility and huge bases was a terrible idea.
Who would have guessed, eh?
Honestly riot should be balancing ekko around having him build bruiser. His kit just screams bruiser with all those slows, the stun + shield and the heal. Why they don't balance him around the assumption that he will be built that way really confuses me.
as a bruiser he is just way to good (thats why tank ekko is so strong, cause he is balanced around being an assassin). Bruiser with high damage, high mobility, shields, and amazing sticking potentially would never be balanced.
It's not like people are going to start building him AD because of this.
In the end I'm sure they'll find a way to get him balanced. Maybe removing his slow or something like that.
Maybe removing his slow or something like that.
Which one?
If you need any proof that Ekko is overloaded, he has 3 slows. THREE! On a champion that's supposed to be an assassin! Makes zero sense.
If you need any proof that Ekko is overloaded, he has 3 slows. THREE! On a champion that's supposed to be an assassin! Makes zero sense.
Also 1 dash/1 blink which, 1 shield, an AoE stun, 1 movement speed buff, and an AoE nuke that heals him. But you know Balanced
He's a utility assassin who does less damage than other AP assassins.
[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fqLEjHEu,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2016-08-24T18:21:04.314+0000)
He's a utility assassin who does less damage than other AP assassins.
You've never had his passive proc'd when he's AP then.
Or got hit by his ult for that matter.
Still don't get why his ult does damage. You go back in time, changing your location and your damage to that point in time. That's a very powerful tool but it fits his theme too, of time travel. It's a really fucking cool ability.
That if he uses it because he's out of position and accidentally happens to hit someone with, that person explodes and dies. Wat.
Makes no sense that it does damage, to me. It's like if Weaver from DotA2 or Tracer from Overwatch/HotS did damage on their time-rewind abilities.
I wouldn't even be that mad if they gave ekko's ult a "bomb" portion kinda like tracer's ult. It would damage him if he didn't rewind far enough away, forcing him to make intelligent decisions about how to use it. But honestly, it would be a lot easier if they just removed the damage entirely. Or lessened it dramatically.
I'd also be fine with the damage going away, and just working on that heal, that way his kit takes a hit but will still remain a threat.
Honestly, tank ekko might be "balanced" with a change like this.
[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fqLEjHEu,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-25T03:08:13.246+0000)
Still don't get why his ult does damage. You go back in time, changing your location and your damage to that point in time. That's a very powerful tool but it fits his theme too, of time travel. It's a really fucking cool ability.
That if he uses it because he's out of position and accidentally happens to hit someone with, that person explodes and dies. Wat.
There was a bit of lore to explain this, during that comic where his best friend died and he chased down the person who did it, it's implied that the person broke the machine, and it seems that's why his ult doesn't truly rewind time on the Rift
talon has 2 slows which is only 1 less. It's not that ekko has 3 slows that is the problem, its how strong they are and how he gains movement speed as well for slowing.
plus talon's E is literally a .25 sec slow, that's literally nothing, especially if they happen to have tenacity. It barely counts as a slow, why even mention it
"why even mention it" because i was pointing out that it IS NOT JUST THE SLOWS that is the problem. It's like you can't even read, i explained right after that the problem is how strong ekko's slows are.
Man you don't understand. If we're talking about cc talon only REALLY has one ability, which is why it shouldn't be mentioned. Now if he had a longer slow on that e, it would make sense to compare the two. I'm just stating that using talon and his "2" slows isn't that great of a comparison. You could compare ekko to fizz however, because fizz has 2 slows which are actually fairly strong, and he also has invulnerability.
Ekko should be on the list for the Assassin Update
Personally, I feel like they should just change the W to an entirely new ability.
It's so highly telegraphed that landing it is impossible if they see you, and if you run up to them they'll typically back off, making an attempted stun useless unless you can chain a good E into it.
Slow From Q Slow from Passive Slow from W Stun from W Shield from W Mobility from E Heal on R Mobility on R Speed buff from Passive
Now lets look at "utility" mid laners like: Morgana Root on Q Anti-cc shield on E Anti-magic shield on E Slow on R Stun on R Spell Vamp on passive And she's a character build around the concept of being an utility mage.
or Karma Snare on W Heal on W Shield on E Move speed on E CD reducing passive skill buffing ultimate
Lets see a tank like Maokai: Heal - passive Slow on Q Slow on E Knock up on Q Snare on W Mobility on W Damage reduction on R
Or Sion: Slow on Q Knock up on Q Slow on E Armor shred on E Shield on W Knock up on R Speed buff on R
Hmm, how about an utility support, like janna: Movement speed on passive Knock up on Q Slow on W Shield on E Extra AD on E Knockback on R Heal on R
Utility ADCs like Ashe: slow on passive slow on Q vision on E stun on R slow on R
Or Jhin: Snare on E i guess Slow on W i guess Slow on R Movement Speed buff passive
Out of this simple list we can see that Ekko has MORE UTILITY THAN: tanks, utility supports, utility mid laners or utility carry.
There's no "surprise" he ain't balanced. He never was supposed to be. But if you god forbid propose to take some of his utility away. Like one of those slows, like his heal or his stun. People go crazy mad.
nerf the black can cer once and fo all ,remove all slows and stuns and give something minor like 0.5 slow or root 0.25