Still no Evelyn or Naut changes

Bears Dont Care·Dec 2, 2014·29 votes·3,357 views

Good to know that junglers who are having such a hard time in the jungle that they are practically unviable, don't matter.

Sorry Riot but there can only be 1 Lee sin per team in ranked.

43 Comments

IgotlazyDec 2, 20145 votes

Didn't Eve get a shift in base Armor and Armor scaling when 4.20 hit? Like I think she went from 21 to 26 base and something like 4 to 3.5 per level.

Bears Dont CareDec 2, 20147 votes

Didn't Eve get a shift in base Armor and Armor scaling when 4.20 hit? Like I think she went from 21 to 26 base and something like 4 to 3.5 per level.

She did, but she sports one of the lowest base health ni the game until she hits 11, and during that time she cannot clear the jungle nearly as efficiently as most of the jungle cast. Due to that, she either ganks, or she farms, and then proceeds to fall behind throughout the game.

She needs some form of sustain, or the least they can do is return some of her damage to her because as it stands, she has absolutely no damage during early game, unlike a character like Lee Sin who can execute you at level 3.

Leti the YetiDec 2, 20144 votes

invade eve's jungle
fk up her leash
???
profit

shes gonna get executed alot for the next 15 minutes and fall behind ;D easiest champ to shut down ever

Skia AsteriDec 2, 20141 votes

invade eve's jungle

fk up her leash

???

profit

shes gonna get executed alot for the next 15 minutes and fall behind ;D easiest champ to shut down ever

Nope. Kaz'zix is easier. Just leave him a lone and ignore him, and just kill his ADC faster than he kills yours and he is useless.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1651338080/218693738?tab=overview

Also, what leash?

Leti the YetiDec 2, 20146 votes

i wish people ignored me more often when im an assassin makes me job so much easier when theyre trying to cc somebody else

but doing what you do is a matter of their skill and yours while a simple invasion, or just stall time, apply pressure and make it risky to even go for the first buff is all it takes for eve

and no, ur one game doesnt mean shat, eve isnt suddenly going to do ok in the jungle

Thunder DreamssDec 2, 20142 votes

They did move a bit of her armor from per level to up front. It's not enough. The big problem is that Eve is completely dependent on her leash which means she's easy to shut down with an invade or uncooperative team.

Without a leash she can clear two small camps before she goes home. If you're good you might be able to clear a bit of a third camp (small chickens, for example) but anything more and you get executed.

BudupopsDec 3, 20144 votes

Naut needs to be bigger

ImHerVoiceDec 2, 20143 votes

yeah.. riot gutted my eve and left her to rot I was done with her.. the final nail in the coffin for me was the removal of 25% base damage on Q with no change to how high it scaled with AP. AP tank eve/full tank eve is done. riot has thoroughly ruined her. I play her on my trolly EUW/LAN/NA accounts but as of trying to actually have a bove a 55% winrate with her as a veteran eve main... yeah... its not happening in s5. RIP eve. Lol. Idk hoesntly how hard it is to simply make her Q refund hp against non champions or something useful as a jungler,. But she's always had shit tier clear and sustain and making the jungle this difficult to clear is just tightening the noose.

Champion SkinDec 2, 20141 votes

Idk hoesntly how hard it is to simply make her Q refund hp against non champions or something useful as a jungler,. But she's always had shit tier clear and sustain and making the jungle this difficult to clear is just tightening the noose.

If you wanted that kind of effect you could give it monster only spell vamp (or a specific heal on hit) (same way spitit stone used to give increased damage against monsters only)

MartyrofsandDec 2, 20142 votes

Jungle naut is fine if you know how to use his AA resets.

As for Eve, until riot fixes vision so she doesn't just get the free gank every lane whenever she damn well pleases she can stay in the gutter.

Thunder DreamssDec 2, 20145 votes

Or you could learn to ward. Seriously, people talk like pink wards don't exist.

"Oh no, Eve can kill them!" In the 4-5 seconds it took her to kill it did you not see she was there? You have less time to see Udyr coming as he runs past a green ward.

Further, green wards can see her when she's visible. When is she visible? When she's been fighting jungle creeps recently. Place your green wards just inside her jungle, like back up the ramp to blue, and you'll see her as she heads your way if she's been fighting any of the camps there.

MartyrofsandDec 2, 20143 votes

Because we can place pink wards from all possible jungle paths...oh wait no each person only gets 1 and considering mid lane have 4 possible paths coming from both sides of the jungle, top and bot both have 2 and lane ganks are a thing when you can easily sneak into a bush sorry the whole "pink ward her" argument has been a fallacy for some time now.

As for your "green ward her jungle camps" garbage, sure I'll get right on that whole wondering into the enemy jungle on myself to ward up because nothing bad ever happens when you walk into the enemy jungle by yourself against someone who could be any where at any time thanks to her invisibility, not to mention the likely hood of you being caught and collapsed on due to the amount of free wards.

People trying to defend stealth champions right now with how limited pink wards are really need to get a clue. There is a reason Eve was a hugely contested pick for the jungle right up until she was nerfed so hard she simply couldn't be, and no it wasn't because the rest of her kit is some kind of amazing because frankly it's garbage. Stealth right now as absurdly powerful and it has been since the S4 ward changes, not surprisingly that is the time we saw Rengar(without bugs)/Twitch/Eve all come into prominence.

Thunder DreamssDec 3, 20143 votes

Because we can place pink wards from all possible jungle paths...oh wait no each person only gets 1 and considering mid lane have 4 possible paths coming from both sides of the jungle, top and bot both have 2 and lane ganks are a thing when you can easily sneak into a bush sorry the whole "pink ward her" argument has been a fallacy for some time now.

When you're up against a Lee or a Xin or a WW do you use 4 green wards for mid or 2 for top/bot? What's that, you mostly just rely on one green (yellow) at a time? So how do you survive with one a single green/yellow normally?

Simple, you place your ward in river bush or near baron/dragon where it'll cover both entrances in top/bot. Turns out pinks can be used in the same way.

Mid can't cover all their bases with a single pink but mid has the least distance to cover to hit the safety of a turret so you should be fine.

As for lane ganks, yes, she can just walk into lane. However, if she gets within 700 of you then you'll see her. Lane is what, 1000, 1200 wide? Stand near the middle so she can't get behind you. Be careful of cc. Chances are if Eve is trying a lane gank your lane opponent will cc you so you can't just walk away. If they don't cc you and she shows up... JUST WALK AWAY.

As for your "green ward her jungle camps" garbage, sure I'll get right on that whole wondering into the enemy jungle on myself to ward up because nothing bad ever happens when you walk into the enemy jungle by yourself against someone who could be any where at any time thanks to her invisibility, not to mention the likely hood of you being caught and collapsed on due to the amount of free wards.

I know this might be complicated and I can see why you might not know if you're not an Eve player. If Eve clears a camp and then runs strait to gank she'll be visible until about the time she enters river. River's generally warded tho so she'll probably hang around for 1-2 seconds in the edge of her jungle before going into river. If you place your green ward in this space, just inside her jungle, you'll see her. This is not by her camps, just where you can throw a ward without leaving river. You know, the same place you'd normally go to ward drag?

People trying to defend stealth champions right now with how limited pink wards are really need to get a clue. There is a reason Eve was a hugely contested pick for the jungle right up until she was nerfed so hard she simply couldn't be, and no it wasn't because the rest of her kit is some kind of amazing because frankly it's garbage. Stealth right now as absurdly powerful and it has been since the S4 ward changes, not surprisingly that is the time we saw Rengar(without bugs)/Twitch/Eve all come into prominence.

She came to prominence because everyone went "only one pink ward per person, Eve OP." On paper it makes sense. However she was already so weak from S3 nerfs that she only toped out at 52% win rate and, thanks to people learning to counter her, had fallen down to 50% by the time she was nerfed in S4. The truth is the vision changes only brought her up to par.

So, by "get a clue" do you mean I should base my analysis not on experience and facts but on emotional overreaction and group think?

MartyrofsandDec 3, 20141 votes

When you're up against a Lee or a Xin or a WW do you use 4 green wards for mid or 2 for top/bot? What's that, you mostly just rely on one green (yellow) at a time? So how do you survive with one a single green/yellow normally?

So you mentality is "place a pink where she will easily find and destroy it and once she does proceed to play safe doing nothing of any relevance until you can drop another pink ward to see her." Sorry but that isn't how you win this game. Playing safe has it's uses but you can't sit in lane terrified of the Eve gank as soon as she kills your pink ward, and if you are congrats EVE ALREADY WON THE LANE and she didn't even have to gank it.

As for lane ganks, yes, she can just walk into lane. However, if she gets within 700 of you then you'll see her. Lane is what, 1000, 1200 wide? Stand near the middle so she can't get behind you. Be careful of cc. Chances are if Eve is trying a lane gank your lane opponent will cc you so you can't just walk away. If they don't cc you and she shows up... JUST WALK AWAY.

Because walking away from a champ with 2 move speed buffs, one that breaks slows, and a massive AoE slow is something you are totally going to do. It's so easy it only explains why she was dominating the pro scene with Lee Sin/Kha/Elise all the way up until she was nerfed to the point of doing minimal damage. Nice try but this is a REALLY weak and sad attempt to defend something that should not be in the game is vision mechanics are going to continue to be what they are.

I know this might be complicated and I can see why you might not know if you're not an Eve player. If Eve clears a camp and then runs strait to gank she'll be visible until about the time she enters river. River's generally warded tho so she'll probably hang around for 1-2 seconds in the edge of her jungle before going into river. If you place your green ward in this space, just inside her jungle, you'll see her. This is not by her camps, just where you can throw a ward without leaving river. You know, the same place you'd normally go to ward drag?

So grats you saw her for 2 seconds. Now it's been 60 seconds later, you haven't seen her sense you think you can come out from under your turret now? Nope there she is and you are now dead. Grats those wards meant nothing, this is the power of her stealth that you love to ignore and downplay. Not surprised to see such a weak defense considering Eve is one of your most played champs.

She came to prominence because everyone went "only one pink ward per person, Eve OP." On paper it makes sense. However she was already so weak from S3 nerfs that she only toped out at 52% win rate and, thanks to people learning to counter her, had fallen down to 50% by the time she was nerfed in S4. The truth is the vision changes only brought her up to par.

So "on par" that she competed with Lee Sin/Kha'zix/Elise. You know the jungle trinity for the longest of times that you either picked or banned because of how insanely strong they where? Yeah that is so "on par" that she is in the leagues of the best junglers in the game, junglers that continue to dominate inspite of repeated nerfs mind you. BTW your little win percentage is a load of crap. Lee sits in the 40s and yet he is still one of the most oppressive and dominate junglers since S2. It's a weak attempt to justify a busted mechanic, IE stealth, as the current game exists and you are failing miserably.

So, by "get a clue" do you mean I should base my analysis not on experience and facts but on emotional overreaction and group think?

Fun fact, I'm not responding on emotion, I'm responding on facts. Stealth champs, aside for the bugged Rengar, did next to nothing prior to vision changes. Once those changes went through they suddenly became boogie-men picks that we begin to see game after game after game all the way up to the pro scene. You really think that is a coincidence? That with minimal/no changes there kits suddenly became amazing out of thin air? No stealth became broken due to lack of counters and champs that would otherwise be doing nothing suddenly became serious threats. I'm not saying we should go back to the "pink wards litter the ground" S3 levels of counter but something beyond "you get 1 pink ward to find me and I can see it" set up right now has proven to not work when it comes to keeping stealth in check, and it's resulted in nerfs to pretty much all champions with stealth with Eve being the only one to get completely taken out of viability.

Thunder DreamssDec 3, 20142 votes

I could point out that when Eve was at the peek of her "SUPER OP" phase my techniques worked to stop her.

I could point out that your pink ward only needs to survive 4 minutes to get the same gold value per minute as a green ward.

I could point out that Eve's W (2 movement abilities) breaks stealth, thus nullifying the very strength you think is too much to deal with.

But that would all be pointless. You're obviously more interested in the "overstate a champion's strengths to make them sound OP" game then in actually learning how to counter the mechanic you find difficult.

I have explained and explained again how you can use the vision tools available to insure that "she doesn't just get the free gank every lane whenever she damn well pleases." If you'd rather feed her, be my guest.

MartyrofsandDec 4, 20141 votes

I could point out that when Eve was at the peek of her "SUPER OP" phase my techniques worked to stop her.

I could point out that your pink ward only needs to survive 4 minutes to get the same gold value per minute as a green ward.

I could point out that Eve's W (2 movement abilities) breaks stealth, thus nullifying the very strength you think is too much to deal with.

But that would all be pointless. You're obviously more interested in the "overstate a champion's strengths to make them sound OP" game then in actually learning how to counter the mechanic you find difficult.

I have explained and explained again how you can use the vision tools available to insure that "she doesn't just get the free gank every lane whenever she damn well pleases." If you'd rather feed her, be my guest.

I could point out that no they didn't because those techniques you like to throw out? Yeah they got used on the pro scene combined with significantly better communication and team strategies and Eve was still dominate. Sorry but no you can't. The only successful strategy pros found and used to counter Eve was to create a 2v1 lane and force Eve to stay with the 2v1 lane to protect it.

You could but that is irrelevant to the conversation about how little there is that can be done to actually stop Eve from ganking lanes.

And I could point out that Eve will use that ability right as she comes into vision range, or shortly after considering she can easily come from behind and save it for a slow, to be seen making that fact that it "breaks stealth" completely irrelevant.

It's obvious you are only interested in the "lets under sell my champs strengths to make them appear reasonable and fair instead of the broken design they currently are" to actually listen and learn how an ability that used to be reasonable, stealth, became extremely toxic to the game due to vision changes.

You have explained nothing but shallow theories that have been proven wrong and to not work at the highest levels of competition. At this point the only thing to say about your comments is you are trying to defend one of your mains because if you actually believe what you are typing then you are a special kind of clueless.

An Evelynn jungle that waits a full minute for you to move into a position she can gank you is one that is now so far behind that she might as well AFK the rest of the game. At most she can wait 10 seconds without leaving to at least farm, and that is assuming her team is dominating every lane but yours.

You only need to use various tactics enough to put her behind so she cannot gank effectively, and it does not take much to achieve this the way the new jungle works.

Actually if she gets a successful gank off, especially if it's a double kill in bot lane, than no she isn't behind. Additionally if Eve does get behind but snowballs her allies then that is perfectly fine as often times she isn't going to be carrying the game. She is much like J4/Amumu/Lee/etc style junglers who even if they get behind it doesn't really matter because they provide plenty of utility to the team fight to more than make up for not having high damage or being extremely tanky. There is a reason you see pros waiting 30 secs to a minute for a gank as Lee Sin, we saw them do it was Eve as well. Snowballing your lanes is well worth it for how badly it can cripple the enemy laner, they will be farther behind than Eve would be after waiting.

Skia AsteriDec 3, 20142 votes

So grats you saw her for 2 seconds. Now it's been 60 seconds later, you haven't seen her sense you think you can come out from under your turret now? Nope there she is and you are now dead.

An Evelynn jungle that waits a full minute for you to move into a position she can gank you is one that is now so far behind that she might as well AFK the rest of the game. At most she can wait 10 seconds without leaving to at least farm, and that is assuming her team is dominating every lane but yours.

You only need to use various tactics enough to put her behind so she cannot gank effectively, and it does not take much to achieve this the way the new jungle works.

YavimawaDec 2, 20142 votes

What's worse - NO Zac changes!

Kowe The EwokDec 3, 20142 votes

Tried Eve today. Holy hell, I've made quite a lot of junglers work in the new junlge (including Gnar and Jayce), but Eve is just completely underwhelming. Her clear has become so horrible I don't even know what to say.

Skia AsteriDec 3, 20141 votes

Tried Eve today. Holy hell, I've made quite a lot of junglers work in the new junlge (including Gnar and Jayce), but Eve is just completely underwhelming. Her clear has become so horrible I don't even know what to say.

Then you are doing it wrong. Her clear is fine. Stop building Skirmisher - Devourer on her.

For a bit about how I do it: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1652237305/218693738?tab=overview

R33LNAUTIDec 3, 20141 votes

Tried Eve today. Holy hell, I've made quite a lot of junglers work in the new junlge (including Gnar and Jayce), but Eve is just completely underwhelming. Her clear has become so horrible I don't even know what to say.

Hahaha, you should try Rengar pre lvl 30 with no real runes, he's even worse. Eve clears better than Rengar at lvl 15 no matter what runes or masteries you try

BeatzBoyFTWDec 3, 20142 votes

Nautilus is okay in the new jungle, I can pretty much sustain him to clear both blue & red camps before my 1st recall.

Angry MonsterDec 3, 20142 votes

Dont you mean their can only be one warwick per team?

OblongOtterDec 3, 20142 votes

Sorry Riot but there can only be 1 Warwick per team in ranked.

FTFY

WooBeeWooDec 2, 20141 votes

Yeah I don't know why they don't ever look at champs like this but seriously when lucian can get modified every game (yes they are nerfs but buffing champs is just as important) shows where their focus is....

Kuroi86Dec 2, 20141 votes

I never had any trouble jungling with Naut. Eve was a bit trickier, but I figured out a route and after first clear it gets a lot easier.

ZahzDec 2, 20141 votes

its only pre season.

Bears Dont CareDec 2, 20141 votes

its only pre season.

The problem is its an issue that has been around since PBE/ <.<

.>

Someone is looking over my shoulder.

CerbearusDec 2, 20141 votes

The entire game is Yi, WW, and Lee in the jungle right now, and WW is permabanned... Good luck playing any jungler that cant stay at full hp in the new jungle and can duel like a mofo.

Mirage NightDec 2, 20141 votes

I am hoping the thematic rework with be accompanied with some changes. I would love if they just ditched the passive and buff her a lot.

futuresight23Dec 2, 20141 votes

I'm guessing there is a chance Nautilus gets buffed depending on the information they are getting about him is.

Evelynn however is going to stay where she is right now. Her passive just takes up way too much of her power budget.

AkabaneKunDec 2, 20141 votes

Riot didn't have any problem gutting eve a ton of times when she was dominant, but now that they change the jungle they are incapable of buffing her numbers a litle, good luck killing anyone with her early game now, you can't even do 50% of a squishy with those low values on her Q and E.

MrSexyHoboDec 2, 20141 votes

less that 10% of champs are actually viable picks in he jungle now which is down from around 50%. the jungle is just overtuned. eve needs no buffs

Jaygo41Dec 3, 20141 votes

While i agree with you that both of these champs need changes, lee sin still sucks in the current jungle... his stats have showed that he doesn't perform well in solo queue until higher levels of play anyway.

He has too many later game issues to compensate for early game power, which has already been suppressed essentially. Lee sits at a 44% win rate, indicative of how he's getting tossed around by better junglers and simply outscaled/outclassed. lee sin's alright, but the skill necessary in order to get the most out of him is too high for us plebes.

Bears Dont CareDec 3, 20141 votes

While i agree with you that both of these champs need changes, lee sin still sucks in the current jungle... his stats have showed that he doesn't perform well in solo queue until higher levels of play anyway.

No...no he doesn't. The stats are based around solo queue and lee sin has always been a champion that scales up as the team improves. He does perfectly fine in the jungle and is still going to see high amounts of ply.

He has too many later game issues to compensate for early game power, which has already been suppressed essentially. Lee sits at a 44% win rate, indicative of how he's getting tossed around by better junglers and simply outscaled/outclassed. lee sin's alright, but the skill necessary in order to get the most out of him is too high for us plebes.

We don't consider "plebes", we consider people who are intelligent and capable of using that character. Saying "lee sucks cause we can't use i right." is a stupid argument. Why is it that people demand Lee sin nerfs instead of Amumu nerfs despite Amumu having a higher win rate?

Win rate =/= not evidence

Aurelius MaximusDec 3, 20141 votes

My naut is still a terror of the deep

You obviously haven't adjusted to the new jungle properly

plz don't touch naut

HydraVenomDec 3, 20141 votes

Eve dont need a buff or a nerf or any updates, she already stronger than yi and yasuo combines...

.. Better nerf Irelia!

CeallachDec 3, 20141 votes

Just play Nautilus top. Haven't lost lane yet. :D

SukishooDec 3, 20141 votes

They will get there.

Xx420n0sc0p3sxXDec 3, 20141 votes

I may be terrible, or just started bad, but I've only been able to do two jungle camps before having to back with Wukong. The new jungle is a middle finger to anyone without sustain.