Make them irrelevant till 3 items again so we can have some fun not getting oneshotted by autoattacks at 20mins
Oh and you smart f--ks that say buy armor. Let me buy armor to counter the 2-0-2 adc when they have 3 magic dealers running around why not.
Devilreaper XIII26 votesits not marksmen (adc) that are broken its lifesteal and crit chance that are, with just 60% crit chance and 1 lifesteal item you are almost invincible.
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesWhy don't we see everyone else running around with crit and lifesteal if its broken? Similar to how everyone run arpen and still does run lethality whenever possible? Or how everyone stacked cleavers no matter the champion. I know you guys try very very hard to defend adcs as a class but the class as a whole is broken unfortunately. Riots focus on supports being buff bots to adcs didn't help that problem as well as bringing every class that could threaten adcs down.
Prestige Eve14 votes[{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fmclQPkM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-11T16:08:31.409+0000)
its not marksmen (adc) that are broken its lifesteal and crit chance that are, with just 60% crit chance and 1 lifesteal item you are almost invincible.
This guy gets it. Everyone seems to be forgetting that Tristana was considered one of the weaker ADCs (after the nerfs/rework of course) until crit kept getting cheaper and lifesteal kept getting better. Her kit still remains unchanged since then, but she's just stronger now due to how mindless crit building is. You don't even have to think about what you're building anymore, now that zeal builds into FOUR core crit+atk speed items. People will just rush zeal and decide what they want later...they even have the same build path after zeal...
Why don't we see everyone else running around with crit and lifesteal if its broken?
Because of the very obvious fact that mages clearly won't be able to put it to good use, bruisers and juggernauts (like darius) won't make crit useful outside of cheese glasscanon builds, and tanks will make it useless. Lifesteal is the only universal stat that works well on ALL AD champs, but paired with crit makes it insane. These other classes either can't afford to throw both those stats in their kit, or can only make one of them work.
EDIT: Like I said to the other guy, ADCs have remained unchanged for the most part. It's how cheap and easily build-able their itemization has gotten with every patch.
Hibeki8 votesThe bigger problem is that critical CHANCE is VASTLY undervalued as a stat. 10% damage dealt on auto attacks increased that scales should be nowhere near 400g.
Crit chance is just too fucking good and way too cheap.
Double the cost of crit chance, ADC will drop and other types of DPS 'adc' will show up bot lane
Prestige Eve2 votesThe bigger problem is that critical CHANCE is VASTLY undervalued as a stat. 10% damage dealt on auto attacks increased that scales should be nowhere near 400g.
Crit chance is just too fucking good and way too cheap.
Double the cost of crit chance, ADC will drop and other types of DPS 'adc' will show up bot lane
That's what I've been trying to say all last season. Crit used to be something you had to really commit towards building, as well as sacrifice other stats and item opportunities. You would trade other stats to become a high risk, high reward glasscanon, but that is no longer the case. Remember when old 
had to pour everything towards crit? Well 
gets to mindlessly have it within two items. Remember how balancing armor penetration was supposed be balanced around the items not giving you as much attack damage, so players had to decide whether or not they wanted to sacrifice damage output for more reliability against tanky or armored players? Well take a look at all these lethality items having a minimum of 60 AD to completely negate that idea. Enjoy watching guys like Zed and Kha stack duskblade and other lethality/armor pen items mindlessly. Riot has made everything too easy in a stupid attempt at streamlining for new players.
ARE WE GOING TO FORGET HOW FUCKING BUSTED 
WAS AND HOW MUCH IT MESSED WITH TANKS? REMEMBER HOW IT CREATED THE WHOLE TANKS LASTING ONLY TWO SECONDS THING TO BEGIN WITH? It may not be as strong as it was then, but it's percentage bullshit still caused problems with ADCs like 
and riot kept insisting it was fine. This is why the game keeps getting more and more broken each season. Riot will force an item or mechanic that does not work until it becomes the norm. BOTRK was the original staple that started the whole generalist item spike. We were able to melt tanks by buying a lifesteal item that gave really good ATK Speed and sticking power.
Spoofghoul6 votesI have been saying this since season 3 but what do i know i only ever got down voted for it
Crit is unhealthy and not very special and the interaction with lifesteal is what makes adc's completely broken
Critical strikes should not interact with lifesteal
Critical strikes should be reworked to not deal as much damage, but rather they now penetrate a portion of bonus armor.
Riot can even add special crit effects which happen when you land a critical strike make some items which have this and then this is where tuff like grievous wounds and bleed effects, grounded effects haste effects and anything else you could possibly want can be added to your crit through items The only thing that cannot be added through crit is burst and sustain and everything would be fine
This would also create more natural scaling throughout the game and solidify the marksmen class as the anti tank class
It's not that difficult of a concept and they could have done this during preseason 6 already
Radiant Seraph1 votesThis guy knows the deal
Bronze 6 Yasuo20 votesRemove crit from the game.
JavelinJoe4 votesThat would cause most of the ADCs and even some other champions to be required to be reworked heavily.
and a few more would all need to be reworked because they are somewhat to entirely designed around having crit.
ZT Xperimentor7 votesSo? It's not like riot hasn't done it before multiple times. Cough, class reworks
JavelinJoe1 votesGuess you missed the patch notes.
Let’s start with class updates. Last preseason, we updated Assassins as a continuation of these (i.e. Juggernauts, Marksmen, Mages), and in midseason, we updated Tanks. After seeing the mixed impact of class updates though, we decided to move away from this approach to push individual champions further in bigger and more targeted ways.
Basically they want to do other kinds of updates instead of class updates.
ZT Xperimentor7 votesI'm already aware of what they said, however you don't recall them saying they would avoid damage & durability on the same items, look where we are now. They've been going back on what they've claimed before, and repeatedly with increasing frequency.
JavelinJoe2 votesClass updates are not the same as item changes. Class updates require far more balancing, creativity, and sometimes full champion redesign. It is not like simply tweaking a number or 2 by a small amount. Crit is built in to the champions core design. If Jinx was made to go a full Damage build, why play her over 
or 
who can both forgo crit for raw damage?
ZT Xperimentor1 votesDifferent but not separate either, I can tell you from experience seeing the dodge mechanic removed first hand, a few champions and items were involved along with runes and masteries. Reworks in general require something to be redesigned, kind of the point; and I bring up dodge because it was a similar stat, built in RNG.
As to your rhetorical question, I'll answer it anyway; draven would hit harder but lucian could hit more frequently, draven gets a movement speed buff though lucian can dash, draven's ultimate is global but lucian's is medium ranged, draven has crowd control and lucian doesn't.
Durzaka1 votesDodges was only on 1 (2?) items, and a handful of champions.
It isnt even remotely comparable to removing crit.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesIt made up a chunk of runes and masteries, and the champion pool was much smaller then, but it was still a statistic everyone had even if the value was 0, like critical chance and ability power. The only difference is scale; sure there's more items with critical chance now, and several more marksmen, but riot has also expanded immensely, they should easily have the resources to do such a thing. Remember the graphical update to the rift and replacement of the client?
Durzaka1 votesDodge wasnt built into the balance of an entire class of champions.
Removing dodge required minor tweaking.
Removing crit requires an entire gamechanging from the ground up reworking.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesCritical hits aren't either, just look at some of the more famous ones like ezreal, corki, and jayce. Minor, it was to be stripped from items, runes were refunded across a major part of the community, masteries reworked again, ontop of the champions being changed. Entirely huh, what is there to remove critical from than champions and items? There's no longer any critical runes or masteries because of the overhaul they just did.
Durzaka1 votesYeah no.
Jayce is completely separate from this conversation. He can be played ADC, but he is not an ADC, just like TF. Hes an AD caster. Crit changes wouldnt require any changes for him.
Ezreal and Corki are exceptions to the rule.
Shall we look at those actually affected?
Of all of those, maybe 4 of them work on an alternate build (2 of which are lethality builds, only viable when lethality is very strong).
Are you ready to completely rework 10+ champions at the same time? Because look at the rate we are currently get reworks. 10+ is easily an entire season, and thats completely ignoring any balancing changes needed to items to make a change.
ZT Xperimentor2 votesJayce is still categorized as a marksmen, still can play like one, still can carry like one; he's more of one than ezreal is, lol. Though it makes me wonder, what are your thoughts on quin?
Dodge items could be built by everyone, so by that logic it would've been a whole roster overhaul, just like critical hit items. How many actually have something that directly scales from critical chance/damage? I'm not talking about who/what can critically hit, but what has ratios involving criticals the stat.
Huh mostly melee champions, go figure.
Again it's already been done, no surprise nor do I care for whatever shock value you're attempting to provoke. I've been here since season 1, I'm jaded as hell. Others have mentioned replacing criticals with some form of scaling damage to remove the rng, franky I think it's worth trying, but I can't find who came up with it first, so I can't give any details for the concept. My primary point is something should be done about it, rework or just number tweaking or even some interaction changes, I don't care; but obviously I'm not the only one tired of seeing crits beat everything, while synergizing with so much.
Durzaka1 votesYou are making incredible leaps in logic that makes your argument almost pointless to try and discuss with you.
Just because everyone built dodge items does not mean they are BALANCED around dodge items.
Literally the entire kits of every champion that I listed was designed, from the ground up, to build crit to maximize their damage, and usefulness.
On the topic of Jayce, being categorized as a marksmen is meaningless. Know who else is a marksmen? Teemo. And yet he holds no similarities to the rest of Marksmens, just like Jayce. He might be in the same category, but he is not the same type of champion.
Quinn is a weird champion. Fully capable of building as an ADC, but lackluster as one, and better off building full Lethality assassin top or somewhere else.
Ive been around since early season 2, so dont play seniority, it doesnt further your argument at all. You still keep saying it has been done, but youre outright wrong. They have never attempted something as drastic as removing crit, not even remotely. Removing dodge isnt close to comparable. At all.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesSo were you; claiming nearly every marksman would need to be reworked if criticals were removed, when in reality it would be two, continuing to ignore what I said previously.
Besides, it's not riot hasn't gutted an entire class before either, mages used to have 800~900 ap with a full build, now days they struggle to get 600. Attack damage items have repeatedly been made cheaper and easier to build into, but mage items weren't.
Teemo has no similarities? Pretty sure he auto-attacks for a noticeable portion of his damage, known for using several on-hit items for being a stealth nuisance, similar to ezreal spamming Q. You know what other hybrids can be played like an auto-carry? Twisted fate & kennen, but like teemo, quin, and jayce, only mains build flexibly.
Uh-huh, you remember the rift graphical update & client overhaul? They clearly have the power to do such reworks, they just won't because they favor marksmen above everyone else.
LatticeGrimoire6 votesThat would cause most of the ADCs and even some other champions to be required to be reworked heavily.
Then rework them
BALDG1VEN BOOMER2 votesMm while I agree RNG can be pretty skewed sometimes having some sort of RNG in the game could add excitement.
Take Jhin for example, you know his fourth shot on reload and ultimate will guarantee to crit, you don’t know the exact value of what the RNG would would be but you still know it’s coming because it’s interactive. I personally think having RNG in a game can add excitement depending on how it’s regulated, obviously the IE into double Zeal is a bad example but Jhin on the other hand is a pretty good example of what is more interactive and fun RNG. I’ve never in my life heard anyone complain about Jhin being so RNG related because they at least know when it’s coming.
Provengreil6 votesOk, so hard cap crit at 40% and allow yasuo passive to exceed it. One of the major issues with crit is just how high the percentage actually gets.
BALDG1VEN BOOMER3 votesOne of the major issues with crit is just how high the percentage actually gets.
allow yasuo passive to exceed it.
lol?
The steam life1 votesBut then you’d be creating an entire class that relies on luck
Provengreil1 votesAs opposed to an entire class that multiplies their output by 250% with 3 items? Seriously, IE is 20, then any two more make it 80. It's fucking stupid. Cut those chances in half, hard cap it, and let crit be what it is in every other game that has it rather than an ultra-reliable damage buff. The fact that you think they CAN'T build reliable builds without max crit shows how calcified the builds ahve become: they could look towards 
or even throw some tank-ish or situational stuff like 
. Imagine, ADCs that have to actually take advantage of their incredibly wide item variety and mold themselves to the situation....
The steam life1 votesNo i get your logic I just feel like a game shouldnt be decided on luck. Also people do build ldr botrk ga and sometimes bt. And do you really want adcs to be viable with frozen though. It just isnt a proper game plan plus thats an INCREDIBLY massive nerf to adcs and it would just be kinda stupid to see a pro game decided by which adc gets more crits in a team fight.
hhaavviikk13 voteslifesteal is the problem.
played a ascension game just now, was playing caitlyn, I opted out of lifesteal, had infinity edge, static shiv and essence reaver, mundo could 1 vs 1 me with ease, didn't even stand a chance, I sell essence reaver and save up enough for blood thirster, mundo can't even do anything against me anymore, lifesteal is just that OP
JavelinJoe4 votesIt is both that Lifesteal is really good, but also that ADCs have no free MR anymore from runes. SO they are stuck with base stats. Mundo deals a good amount of magic damage meaning ADCs get chunked easily. Lifesteal provides the means to heal that excess damage you were receiving while Mundo was not able to attack with abilities.
Faceroll Tactics3 votesSomeone on the boards saying that AD champions sometimes lose to Magic damage threats?! HERESY
woodvsmurph7 votesI believe you need to adjust that to aa-based champs (non-casters). Itemization and changes have been creeping up their power for a long while now. All season 7, they intruded earlier and earlier into the game as far as when they outscale caster-based champs (barring a few casters - like riven - that scale decently). On-hit %hp damage means some champs (looking at you yi - for example) don't need to build any armor pen or defensive items and just obliterate tanks who have over 3k hp and 200+ armor - in about 4 autos without even being fed. Champs should at least need 1 %armor pen item to deal that kind of damage. And if they get caught by anything in terms of burst from the enemy, they should be instantly deleted. Instead, they do as much burst with 2-3 autos as a full combo from a caster and then KEEP DOING that level of damage. And heaven forbid they have to build any defensive items or pay for being glass-cannon squishy - nope, they get to be only minorly less tanky than a bruiser. As I predicted, everything is being pushed towards full damage or full tank - no middle ground for being tanky and still having damage. The only way those champs are viable now is build full damage and snowball early.
Runes giving increased damage vs higher hp enemies need to be removed or dropped to a VERY SMALL FLAT damage increase - maybe like 1dmg per 50hp or less. Same goes for ldr last whisper item - severely reduce the bonus damage because it's multiplication factor is ridiculous. %hp damage items need their %dmg dropped probably in half. Maybe scaling off enemy BONUS ad only rather than total hp. The way percent damage amplification works to amp damage dealt based on having less hp and/or based on the increasing max hp of an enemy is multiplicative. Whereas stacking more armor yields decreasing results. And vs %hp damage, obviously stacking hp doesn't leave you much better off either. So defensive stats just get worse and worse against %hp damage and damage amplification regardless of what defensive items you build. Utterly stupid.
JavelinJoe6 votes
will decently stop an ADC for a good while. Also, now ADCs are very weak to magic damage.
Dokkaebi1 votesOmen is a joke after the changes to it.
JavelinJoe4 votes20% reduction to incoming AA crit damage and 15% attack speed reduction is a joke in a post about anti-ADC?
Dokkaebi1 votesHave you ever actually seen it in-game? It doesn't do jack sh*t against an adc with more than 1 item.
JavelinJoe1 votesYeah it works great. Especially if they do not have lifesteal and I have 
and/or 
to boot. Plus, why are you expecting any tank to out damage and out trade an ADC? That is like asking the ADC to out trade and out damage a burst assassin like Zed or Kat. Can it happen? Yeah. Does it happen often? No.
Dokkaebi2 votesOne game I saw a 
with 
getting killed in like 3 seconds just by AAs.
I'm fine as long as stuff like that doesn't happen.
Saggitairre1 votes
Not really. You are talking -10% from crit. That means with IE they are only critting for 240%... Not much of difference there.
Chembaron Yamada4 votesYou take 20% less damage from crit and it doesn't work subtractive like you are saying here.
The crit damage reduction is basically removing the IE passive and puts the ADC's crit damage back to 200% from 250%.
Additionally, it decreases the attack speed by 15%.
Saggitairre1 votesYou take 20% less damage from crit and it doesn't work subtractive like you are saying here.
The crit damage reduction is basically removing the IE passive and puts the ADC's crit damage back to 200% from 250%.
Additionally, it decreases the attack speed by 15%.
How do you figure that? 250% from IE, subtract the -% from Randuins. That makes 240% You cannot subtract the Randuins crit reduction from IE's increase and say its even. Simple math.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesLet's take a look at the patch notes back when they changed the item.
5.16 New Passive: 10% reduced damage from Critical strikes. This affects the total damage dealt by a critical strike, not an additive 10% reduction in their critical strike damage.
Important to note here is that they say that the damage reduction is reducing the total damage, it is not additive like the damage enhancement from Infinity Edge.
7.9 Reduced damage taken from critical strikes increased to 20% from 10%.
That shows that your math is already flawed since you are still calculating with the old 10% instead of the actual 20% damage reduction.
The fact that it is reducing the total damage of the attack means that a critical strike will just deal 80% of its damage.
Let's calculate an example:
A marksman has 100 AD and Infinity Edge (just to make it easier to calculate). A critical strike from this marksman is supposed to deal 250 damage, 250% of his AD.
Now the damage reduction from Randuin's Omen. Taking 20% less total damage means, that the marksman will deal 80% of his original 250 as damage. 0,8*250=200 Therefore, the marksman is just dealing 200% of his AD as damage after Randuin's damage reduction.
This is the same amount a critical strike would deal, if the marksman didn't have the passive from Infinity Edge. Key here is that the damage reduction from Randuin's is not additive, it works multiplicative.
Rivini6 votesCrit chance should be taken out of the game for the same reason dodge was on items, runes, and Sivir's original passive. Jax having it on an ability for a couple seconds at a time isn't bad.
Riot's reason for taking out dodge globally was because of how sometimes an enemy could escape death because of RNG. They said it felt bad for players to miss kills that way.
The same principle applies to crit. Unless you get crit chance to 100%, fights are determined by RNG. Whether you get all the crits you need to kill the enemy and survive (or before they can escape) is up for the game to decide.
Honestly, it's a very BS and overpowered stat either way that is very difficult to itemize against. You need at least 3 full armor items to not die in literally 2 seconds from any marks(wo)man with Infinity Edge, whereas Spirit Visage alone will allow you to survive any combo from any mage.
AD champions have the ability to deal more burst damage than burst mages because of crit. Without spending mana. Every less of a second. Restoring health on every attack.
Feels really bad to play AP when AD has so much more going for them.
Acheron161 votesCrit chance should be taken out of the game for the same reason dodge was on items, runes, and Sivir's original passive. Jax having it on an ability for a couple seconds at a time isn't bad.
Riot's reason for taking out dodge globally was because of how sometimes an enemy could escape death because of RNG. They said it felt bad for players to miss kills that way.
Escape? Jax could fountain dive for like a whole minute.
Rivini1 votesEscape? Jax could fountain dive for like a whole minute.
Yes, that did happen, but that wasn't the reason for taking out dodge globally. They didn't think of it at the time, but they could have coded the fountain's laser to work like it does now; bypassing special edge cases like Tryn's ult and other similar abilities. The other option would be to change dodge on Jax himself.
Idols5 votesThey’re designed to be the primary damage dealers in the game and can get one-shot by tanks anyway (Warwick, Cho’gath etc) so it’s not like they’re unstoppable or the class is unfair
Dengeden5 votesa) you fed the adc b) don't stand there outraged that he can do damage, do something
Mizaya4 votesoneshotted by autoattacks
you sure you don't mean ?
Thilmer3 votesI was hoping the new runes would change the meta, but when the problem is obviously crit and lifesteal changing runes doesn't do much.
