Garen needs a niche that works for him

Big Lincoln··31 votes·2,199 views

And being an anti-carry doesn't.

One thing that stands out about the juggernaut group is that most of them, in theory at least, have a very clear case where they excel - a time where picking one of them is clearly the best choice. Darius is a teamfight beast/multikill machine, Illaoi exceeds at counter-engage, Trundle removes enemy tank from the game, Nasus Yorick are the heavy pushers/tower destroyers, Olaf is for diving and destroying enemy carries, and Shyvana Udyr are the premier junglers of the bunch with an emphasis on objective control. And of course, Mordekaiser being the magic damage monster he is. The ones that I feel have the least reason to justify picking them beyond being numerically powerful are Garen DrMundo Volibear ( Udyr belongs here too). They're basically just raw stats and mostly unavoidable melee damage. Very aged designs.

In Garen's case, there are two reasons why I feel the 'anti-carry' theme of the Villain mechanic suits him poorly and does little to carve out a role for him to play. The first is that an anti-carry does FAR more to carries than what Garen is afforded; they are built to completely and utterly ruin their day and prevent them from playing the game. The only true anti-carry we have in League is the crab god, Urgod. Between his ranged permaslows, his lock-on snipes, % damage reduction and throwing a champion of his choice into his own team for easy kills, he is the epitome of "fuck you" that you would expect. But Juggernauts aren't afforded this; they're required to reach melee range of their targets in almost all cases, and they don't often have the tools that they would really need. In reality, it just sort of pushes Garen to be a sort of assassin-type guy, giving him just a little bit more damage in the hopes that free extra damage will help him stat-check the poor ADC who has the AFK support.

The second reason is that, insofar as the restrictions Riot places on Juggernauts, we already have an anti-carry in the form of Olaf, and I would argue he does it far better considering how he actually shows up in competitive whenever a carry needs to get dumped on. He can prevent ALL peel and self-peel where Garen can only cleanse one slow, and he's equipped with the tools to prevent carries from escaping with mobility or movement speed thanks to his potential for axe permaslows. When it comes to being an 'anti-carry' in the sense that you just run a poor sucker down and bash their heads in with damage output, Garen is trying to compete with someone who was there first -- and failing miserably at it. Right now I would label Garen as more of the assassination specialist of the bunch; he relies usually on either flanking or flashing onto someone out of position and trying his best to kill them with his damage before executing them and running away. But this doesn't feel particularly fitting either; a guy with hulking armor and a sword as thick as his torso is encouraged to take pot shots?

Given the recent Demacian lore update, I've actually come to be fascinated by Malicious Metal's proposition of a more 'anti-mage' role for Garen, seeing as his armor is meant to negate magic around him and the nature of his silence already counters casters. But I'd like to actually do it a bit differently, and to give him some means of working a bit more for his team. Something like changing his W to briefly redirect a portion of all magic damage dealt to ally champions to himself, or to outright reduce the effectiveness of magic damage dealt to anyone around him, which gives him the means to protect ally champions who can run into fights with him, or to give him a means of protecting someone who's retreating. At the same time, he needs a tool that directly promotes him actually going INTO a fight and taking hits, but I think that could be resolved with a return of his tenacity. So, here's my rough idea for reworking just his W to add a bit of depth to a champion who sorely needs it, taking ideas from a couple of Garen posts I've seen lately.

W: Courage Garen enters a defensive stance for .75 seconds, blocking all disabling and providing a magic shield to himself and a portion of that amount to nearby allies for 2 seconds. If Garen blocks any disabling ability in the first .75 seconds, the shields are refreshed and extended to 5 seconds and Garen gains X% tenacity for the duration.

I think a magic shield would be more visible than % damage reduction and easier for his allies to appreciate and notice his contribution. So Garen can now shield multiple allies , but it requires him to face tank the enemy team or play bodyguard for his own to maximize its effectiveness. The tenacity is supposed to help him run mages down even better, given that many of them are equipped with hard CC. I wanted to move away from the damage reduction because I hope that any rework Garen gets will provide him with in-combat sustain in place of it, but I can understand if this is too far a shift from the ability's current purpose. In addition I feel like Garen is sorely lacking in utility even for a Juggernaut, but being a champion whose theme doesn't permit anything beyond all-melee fighting, I think looking to provide more team-helpful utility is the best choice to keep him consistent with his character.

Let me know what you think. I know that he needs big changes to the rest of his kit, too, but this strikes me as a solid start to rebuilding him.

44 Comments

Critmaster Garen7 votes

not happy with this idea because of two reasons. first of all, its just too much of a specialized nieche. as the game is right now, mages are usually not the largest threats.

the game is overflowing with full ad teamcomps simply because people can get away with it with the amunt of stackable armor pen exists in the game. even full armor builds arent effective enough anymore and just get outscaled.

team comps that run multiple carry mages are simply less efficient right now, and garen would almost never be relevant. probably less so than he is now.

second, i think its moving into the wrong direction. what youre proposing sounds more like the ability of a warden than a juggernaut. almost like maokais ult.

ive opened another thread, where i proposed to change garens w to something similar to riposte to be able to block all incoming crowd control for a short duration and an extended damage reduction buff. not only would this increase his options in a fight and his skillcap while leaving the ability overall almost the same, but it might also fit right into this thematic nieche you mentioned.

hes able to shake off nasty spells (cc abilities) with his anti magic armor.

Big Lincoln4 votes

ya it was just a rough spitball

imo the biggest issue with garen is how little utility he has, but the nature of his character doesn't really lend itself to having ranged attacks, so I wanted to find a way for him to help his allies.

i still think he should have the ability to gain large amounts of tenacity. help him just tank through teams to reach people.

Big Lincoln2 votes

I actually do prefer the idea of Garen being shifted to be more skirmisher-like

I was thinking, slowing his blade down to be like, individual spins and not just a DoT around himself, and then allowing him to cancel his spin and combo into it repeatedly. I talked about this a lot before with you but I've been refining the idea a little more. but then, of course, have it speed up with levels so that he can actually do well late game, but it gives sufficient counterplay of weaving in between his swings that he can be buffed early too

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

My, you love defensive stances, don't you?

Also, Garen's not really much of an anti-carry, just an execute machine. He's great against tanks too, if they happen to be the Villain - I've taken 1k true damage from a Garen ult.

Big Lincoln5 votes

My, you love defensive stances, don't you?

I just think it'd work decently as a riposte-y effect

Also, Garen's not really much of an anti-carry, just an execute machine

the jugg rework was supposed to make him anti-carry-ish but it failed. if you want an execute machine he's still outclassed by Darius in that regard, too

TheSnacken4 votes

Doesn't help that his ult has the same cooldown as Darius' without the ability to chain.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=flYXRfmW,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-04-02T02:08:24.386+0000)

I just think it'd work decently as a riposte-y effect

the jugg rework was supposed to make him anti-carry-ish but it failed. if you want an execute machine he's still outclassed by Darius in that regard, too

His execute is a lot scarier than Darius's, as in he can run up and execute you from higher health.

A Darius needs you to be a lot lower for him to run up and ult you, while Garen can kill you from higher health. Sure, Darius is scarier once he gets that execute, but still.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Seriously just rework his passive, it is so fucking shit

GloriousKaiser6 votes

While I don't think it's terrible. It has horrible synergy with his playstyle. He's one of the most all in Champions ever because if he wants to do anything he's got to stick to champions for the duration of Judgement which is hard because he's literally a super diver without the ability to properly dive that loses 1/5 of his abilities as soon as he starts fighting. The only reason it's good because it's so damn strong at level 16. If you don't kill Garen, he will come back and try kill you again, simple as that. And as long as he tanks you, he will keep trying and trying.

But were he a skirmisher. Then I would understand, going in and out of fights and using the down time to heal and wait for opportunities. But he really isn't.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

It's not 'terrible'. It's extremely hard to play into or against it and gimmicky. It's so god damn unreliable. It is borderline mini RNG.

GloriousKaiser3 votes

Oh you meant stupid/unbalanced and not weak/neededbuffs. Yeah, it's never there when you truly need it.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Yeah. It's situationally ridiculous. Either completely batshit retarded and broken, or useless and doesn't do shit. Sure, it does add interesting gameplay sometimes (Focus the fed kalista or the villain?) but overall, it is just too gimmicky.

50000000000000002 votes

Oh you mean the Villain passive (on ultimate), and not his actual passive (healing out of combat)?

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Villain.

TheSnacken2 votes

How about, instead of "Anti-Mage" we make hin the flagship of Tenacity? He's already kind of got the theme, and helps encourage a bodyguard playstyle. Just take your existing concept, but instead of spreading magic damage let him spread tenacity to his teammates?

fuffychan2 votes

tl;dr

Can 100-0 anyone with 3 skills because hey 100% armor reduction with one item is balanced. And press R to deal 1k true damage...much outplay very wow

Fwiffo4 votes

{quoted}

tl;dr

Can 100-0 anyone with 3 skills because hey 100% armor reduction with one item is balanced. And press R to deal 1k true damage...much outplay very wow

100%...what?

SoyUnPrededor1 votes

As someone recovering from cardiothorasic reconstructive surgery, what the fuck are you on and where can I get it? Clearly its better than all the opioids my doctors are prescribing me.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

{quoted}

I am bad at the game

I agree.

Escheton2 votes

Garen's Niche is that once he has 2 items he doesn't have to leave toplane, ever. Black Cleaver+ZZ'Rot combined with passive means your toplaner is stuck, or he loses another tower. Small skirmishes he heals off, and he has the means to just turtle up and run away from any fight he doesn't like. Then he just heals up an continues. Or, he runs to another lane while healing up. Force the enemy out of lane and take the tower fast with zz rot.

It's simple, but effective. Which is why it's not much of a niche any more tbh. But for a 450 champ, he does it quite well.

Salson2 votes

Good idea, its far less stat-checky.

But shouldn't a juggernaut a zoning/reliable defence tool rather then a reactive one. Like extending base duration to 2 sec, but making it cancel Q movement speed and vice versa.

Hell u can give him a resource bar than increases the shield strength.

SirΤeemο2 votes

nice copy-paste... i saw the same post some days ago.. lol

Big Lincoln1 votes

nice copy-paste... i saw the same post some days ago.. lol

SirΤeemο1 votes

kappa

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

Personally I think Garen could probably use some more active mobility or something to ensure he can at least be a running man. Look at characters that are also immobile like Shyvana, Udyr, Darius, and such. They often have a run button as well as hard utility or a dash. Darius gets speed for fighting as well as the pull, Shyvana can run or use a fixed dash if she needs. Udyr can run fast but he also has a shield and stun. I think a magic shield would feel better than just a % reduction and it might actually work great if its like Morgana's where he gets a tiny amount of cc immunity, but short of that I think he'd honestly just need a bit more mobility.

The villain mechanic sucks, lets be real. Its a minigame like Fiora or Kindred has where they give you more power but so situationally that you often won't take the risk. I wouldn't mind removing this to put more power into his speed or anti-mage options. Personally though I think something like a Galio E or Rengar Q where Garen gets a bit of momentum forward as his Q while still having the silence effect would probably be the way to help him. He struggles since he can't cross walls and after his speed boost is gone he's useless, but if he could silence/dash then spin and have some leftover move speed to walk out with it'd mean he can take more risks in trades and there's also benefits to holding his Q more.

MistroTTC1 votes

I think the magic shield should be changed to a basic shield, yeah it makes less sense thematically, but I think it would work out better when you are not against a magic damage champion which is a very real possibility top lane, and without it its just a mediocre Riposte with a bit of tenacity.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Aside from an ulted Trundle, he's the hardest to kill of the juggernauts.

Big Lincoln2 votes

you're right, I should have taken that into consideration

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=flYXRfmW,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-04-02T05:20:57.950+0000)

Aside from an ulted Trundle, he's the hardest to kill of the juggernauts.

except that other juggernauts have ways to regain health in combat.

while he has the most upfront defense, he cant take extended trades with a lot of the other juggs, because sustain mechanics often outclass his w.

Papa Andrei1 votes

Here is what I was thinking,

Passive: Garen grants 10-50 bonus MR to all nearby allies. Q: Garen Chooses a target, he then gains Extreme bonus MS towards that target, and his First AA silences them. W: Garen gains % damage reduction per minion killed. (Needs 200 minions for full effect at 25% DR((Numbers balance idk))) Active effects, doubles his Passive MR gain on himself. E is fine, R is fine.

Kingnewgameplus4 votes

That passive is busted. Why do you think Aegis got changed in the first place?

Papa Andrei1 votes

There is this thing that i stated saying (numbers should be changed). Be nice idfpeople actually read it

BenParadox1 votes

With all due respect, I'm afraid that number changes wouldn't be enough to fix this rework.

The passive is invisible power, and even if there was a visible ring around Garen, it would still be incredibly boring and add nothing interesting or satisfying to his kit. His current passive, while not good, Is still more interesting then this.

The Q is actually worse then the current one. At least now you can choose between a quick AA reset, a gap closer, or an escape. Plus, you can also time it to try to get rid of a slow. This new Q makes him terrifying against one person for a while, which, in a duel, screws them if they can't peel him or run fast enough. In a teamfight, Garen would just be totally peeled off, assuming your team actually has competent CC, and he would be unable switch targets and silence someone else (assuming I interpreted your post correctly).

W is basically his current W, just with the damage reduction being swapped with the resistances (well, resistance now).

  • Other Juggernauts

Most importantly, Garen's damage still has no counter play other then "Don't get near him." The best designed Juggernauts have some sort of counterplay, and have better tools for fighting.

Darius's Q edge can be dodged by running away or hugging him, you can manage his passive, and his E is escapable. In return, he can heal a lot off of Q's edge, become empowered, pull people, and chain executes.

Illaoi's lashes and E can be dodged. Her tentacles can also be killed. In return, she can drag your soul to her, beat it up, and conditionally send Tentacles to you. She can also heal off lashes and use her ult to make needed tentacles, make her lashes faster, and make her tentacles unkillable.

Yorick's ghouls can be killed (or you can try to fight him when they are down), and his W and E can be dodged. The W can even be destroyed or escaped from. In return, he gets a cage (that is a harsh sentence for an immobile mage or enchanter), a low cooldown, albeit flat, heal, several damaging dead to distract you from damaging him directly, current % and max % health damage, and he can summon ghouls when he needs them with his ultimate. He can also push 2 waves at once or create a super push (though the former isn't quite as affective due to tower targeting priority and the maiden's AA range).

Meanwhile,

Garen can silence people, spin, reduce some damage, execute, walk out (if he didn't die), and try again. Shyvana can dive in and start hitting people until she is dead or they are. That or she 'pokes' them with human E. Udyr just splitpushs and runs away if he is too weak (or if he is fed enough or good enough, acts like Singed), or he tries to AA someone until one of them is dead. Volibear just slows and flings (not necessarily in that order) people, ults, and bites them (though the way the bite execute works is actually kind of neat and should probably stay in some form when he gets reworked, along with his ability to fling people, his rivalry with Zilean, and possibly his thunder element).

Udyr, Garen, Shyvana, and Volibear all have the disadvantage of having unavoidable damage (If you get in range). This takes away from their power budget, makes them fairly feast or famine, and frustrating to play against if they are ahead.

TL;DR This rework doesn't solve any of Garen's problems, and it makes him have even less decision making/agency.

Papa Andrei1 votes

Let me explain what I was going with. I wrote that all in like 30 seconds so not a lot of thought besides what fits his thematic.

Passive, fits his Anti-Magic armor theme, as it is stated in the lore with the witch she could feel her power being smothered. Unless you would like something fancy and utterly broken such as; All magic based projectiles within an area of Garen get redirected to him. (Think Black Hole) Cause otherwise, theres jack shit to be done bout the Anti-Magic armor and should be removed from lore.

Q: Easy fix. CD doesn't start until he AA's a target. IF he does not select a target (Doesn't hover over them) He just gets a massive speed boost but a greatly reduced Silence and AA damage.

W. Whats wrong with just becoming more tanky for a certain period?

E. I am not good with coming up brand new ideas, so someone could come in and figure out what to do with this. Though Thematically it makes sense, as he was always first one in on the field, and first to charge and break their ranks.

R. I like the whole SMITE THEE VILLAIN thing, though could be changed from Villian to Mage. Old Veigars R

BenParadox1 votes

Well to be honest I'm not sure what should be done with E or R either. Something needs to change (at least with E), but I do not know what the best change would be. I guess you have a point on W. Still, I just don't think switching things would solve much. While I do like the idea of an Anti-Magic Garen, it should not involve invisible power. It also doesn't have to be as powerful as it was in the lore (i.e. Galio didn't need to literally eat magic, though I wish he had something better then a magic version of Malphite's shield)

Also I do agree that something like that black hole constantly affected Garen would be a little ridiculous. Could work in a windowed period though. Also might be better on a Warden or maybe even Enchanter though, like Braum's E. ...A Warden... ...Galio ... I'm sensing a possible missed opportunity here. Might have needed to work a little differently though, and certainly wouldn't be constant.

Thanks for the discussion. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Something just needs to be done to raise his skill ceiling and change his design. I like your idea, though.

What if Decisive Strike were a short-ranged dash/blink?

PelicanOfDeath1 votes

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Supreme Senpai691 votes

Garen seems more like one of those champions that teaches you how to play tanks. (Juggernauts wardens vanguards whatever I don't care lol. Big defensive dude.) Not everyone needs a niche I don't think. But nice read all the same.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

Anyway, please stop trying to force Garen into a new niche when he already has one he just happens to be shit at if he's not overtuned. He's obviously meant to be the skirmishing duelist juggernaut who isolates a single dude and fucks them up with target-agnostic damage. His Q is single-target and makes it harder for one guy to fight back, his W makes him tankier, his E is an armour-shredding tool that deals more damage against a lone target, and his ult is a single target nuke. The Villain mechanic is meant to emphasize this, giving Garen heavy damage against any enemy champion, no matter their durability. It's just unreliable garbage, and the rest of his kit is just too reliable (in that, if you're in range, the ability will land).

Please don't make him into juggernaut Galio just to force a niche onto him.

Big Lincoln1 votes

if he's not good at it it's not really working for him, is it?

i've never thought he was a good duelist with current kit anyway; he's more burst-focused than favoring extended trades beyond his spin. I have done a couple of posts about making him more like this, though, giving him more efficient use of spin cancels to use for resets and combos so that he actually CAN duel well.

i'm still trying to figure out how to add counterplay to his E beyond 'stand in your minions'. either making it slowed down to the point you can dodge individual spins by walking in and out of his range, or by adding Darius Q's reduced damage range on the inner or outer portion. Q is easy, just make it avoidable and then up the reward for landing it.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=flYXRfmW,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2017-04-02T23:25:18.280+0000)

if he's not good at it it's not really working for him, is it?

Logic like this leads to Poppy being reworked into a tank.

Warwick was bad at his niche, but his rework simply made him better and healthier at it. Why can't Garen be the same?

i've never thought he was a good duelist with current kit anyway; he's more burst-focused than favoring extended trades beyond his spin. I have done a couple of posts about making him more like this, though, giving him more efficient use of spin cancels to use for resets and combos so that he actually CAN duel well.

There's a caveat there. He's not a good duelist, unless he's fighting the Villain, in which case he is almost unbeatable given equal gold. He actually has an amazing steroid for fucking up anyone 1v1, but it's both toxic and unreliable.

i'm still trying to figure out how to add counterplay to his E beyond 'stand in your minions'. either making it slowed down to the point you can dodge individual spins by walking in and out of his range, or by adding Darius Q's reduced damage range on the inner or outer portion. Q is easy, just make it avoidable and then up the reward for landing it.

Yes, Q should be made avoidable, and maybe even be, gasp, a short-range dash.

As for E, making it slower could be cool. Juggernauts are meant to be slow, so being able to see the sword in motion and being able to dodge individual swings is a possible idea. Should up the range though, and make individual tics hurt more.

Big Lincoln1 votes

Yes, Q should be made avoidable, and maybe even be, gasp, a short-range dash.

Like Illaoi, but missable. AoE, maybe

As for E, making it slower could be cool.

I fancy the idea of actually feeling the weight of that giant sword. It's fun for meme-y shit that he spins at 300km/s but it kind of takes the satisfaction of impact away. I don't know if you've noticed but I really enjoy things that hit hard and look like they hit hard.

I feel like Garen's passive needs to change in some capacity too, but that's my personal distaste for 'passive' play; I want to be rewarded for fighting and doing well in the fight, not for running away.

Mannny1 votes

Garen is for new players and I don't even consider him a champion to be honest.

If they want him to be an actual pick in league then they should probably rework his passive and W.

BremerdanGorst1 votes

He's at the point where I wonder if they should just rework him into either a fighter or a tank. Be interesting if they made him some sort of tank that you rally around, that buffs his team, but Riot doesn't like that sort of thing. Hm. Maybe just give him some of his MS back on Q, or make him slow immune for the first second.

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