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Morello 09-17-2011 about Irelia and overloaded kits

MOuHahaHAhahaaaa··155 votes·23,392 views

" Irelia is a champion that really exemplifies what we've done incorrectly with the Fighter class overall. The problem with her, generally, is utility/power overload. 

When we released Irelia, she never felt "great." We kept adding and adding until she felt OK. Once released, she was considered quite weak, which caused us to additionally buff her. What we ended up with was a character who had everything - CC, burst, closing ability, a split of magic/phys/true, survivability and sustain.

Most of the problem with her is this combination of overload, to where everything force multiplies on itself (along with creating a character that there's less options to bring to the table when fighting against), so it's taken a lot of adjustments to get her out of that space. Even still, there's still issues (power considerations aside) in the combination of tools available. Our worry is that while we don't think she's doing good things for the game, removing power from these appropriately would likely make her very unsatisfying to use. That's the conundrum generally when we make popular (and overpowered in some way) characters who need changes later - players become attached to the original, and it's hard to get them in the right place.

Retrospectively, we've learned a lot about how to not make abusive mechanics on fighters since then, but Irelia stands testament to that lesson, and the opposing forces between satisfying play experiences and fine-tuned play balance will always have her in mind (much like they do Vlad for some similar reasons). "

Amen.

What would he say if he comes back to be lol's lead designer again ?

I Guess that the actual team working on lol didn't learn from Morello's experience and wise advices...

76 Comments

Jamaree95 votes

Remember when he said that and everyone called him an idiot because he didn't know what he was talking about and demanded Irelia needed buffs, because I do.

haaaaaaalp2 votes

{quoted}

Remember when he said that and everyone called him an idiot because he didn't know what he was talking about and demanded Irelia needed buffs, because I do.

To be fair, that the old irelia didn't really cross over to the overloaded kits, she simply was near the borderline. While it could be argued that Morello was right in the sense that irelia was a warning for things to come, I can easily see why people didn't like the example being applied to the old irelia because she really didn't cross the line. It really wasn't until later when champion design started to throw out all of the old rules learned in season 1 and 2 that this quote really starts to sink in.

Also, If memory serves, Riven's release wasn't that far off and may have been released at the time of this quote and she would have been a much better example for what Morello was trying to say although I will admit I don't remember the exact timeline and Riven's spells not functioning properly early on in her release may have made it hard to point to her.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, that the old irelia didn't really cross over to the overloaded kits, she simply was near the borderline. While it could be argued that Morello was right in the sense that irelia was a warning for things to come, I can easily see why people didn't like the example being applied to the old irelia because she really didn't cross the line. It really wasn't until later when champion design started to throw out all of the old rules learned in season 1 and 2 that this quote really starts to sink in.

Which is what people asked for when they started whining about how all champions were samey and boring.

KFCeytron8 votes

{quoted}

samey

Similar?

Jamaree2 votes

{quoted}

Similar?

Yup.

ZerglingOne24 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, that the old irelia didn't really cross over to the overloaded kits, she simply was near the borderline. While it could be argued that Morello was right in the sense that irelia was a warning for things to come, I can easily see why people didn't like the example being applied to the old irelia because she really didn't cross the line. It really wasn't until later when champion design started to throw out all of the old rules learned in season 1 and 2 that this quote really starts to sink in.

Also, If memory serves, Riven's release wasn't that far off and may have been released at the time of this quote and she would have been a much better example for what Morello was trying to say although I will admit I don't remember the exact timeline and Riven's spells not functioning properly early on in her release may have made it hard to point to her.

In the environment in which he was referencing, Irelia was extremely overloaded compared to the other available options at the time.

It's like when people talk about the original release Xin Zhao being super broken. Most people would look at his release kit now and go "meh whatever" but in the environment he existed in he was a pentakilling unkillable monstrosity of a champion.

You have to remember, when he was talking about Irelia in that context, there were maybe 8 champions with relatively strong gap closers. Maybe 2 or 3 with targeted gap closers.

And then you have to also remember, LoL's balance shifts wildly over time because systems change fairly drastically between seasons. Something that was blatantly underpowered in October could be holy fuck broken in November during the preseason.

Irelia just bubbled up back then. It's the same thing that happened to Corki and Ezreal back then too.

Leto GT6 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, that the old irelia didn't really cross over to the overloaded kits, she simply was near the borderline. While it could be argued that Morello was right in the sense that irelia was a warning for things to come, I can easily see why people didn't like the example being applied to the old irelia because she really didn't cross the line. It really wasn't until later when champion design started to throw out all of the old rules learned in season 1 and 2 that this quote really starts to sink in.

Also, If memory serves, Riven's release wasn't that far off and may have been released at the time of this quote and she would have been a much better example for what Morello was trying to say although I will admit I don't remember the exact timeline and Riven's spells not functioning properly early on in her release may have made it hard to point to her.

Her kit was overloaded that's why she became that nerf meme. I thought her rework was meant to create a healthier kit by removing some components but they just took the whole "CC, burst, closing ability, a split of magic/phys/true, survivability and sustain" and raised it to the next level of busted.

King Lego59 votes

So old Irelia was overloaded and was a mistake with problems.

She gets reworked with the SAME overloaded bs and problems.

How the hell does the design mentality work in that company? This pisses me off so much. Why even play this game if they don't even know what game health is?

SHANK LUX MAINS11 votes

[deleted]

King Lego2 votes

[{quoted}](name=SHANK LUX MAINS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fjAdQwPo,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-11-03T09:46:43.168+0000)

Because riot only hires the mentally handicapped to work on the balance team of their small indie company

I wouldn't use "mentally handicapped" and go with something more savage and true, but i'll go with what you said because my idea will probably perma ban me from boards.

ankoanko193 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fjAdQwPo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-03T09:36:43.957+0000)

So old Irelia was overloaded and was a mistake with problems.

She gets reworked with the SAME overloaded bs and problems.

How the hell does the design mentality work in that company? This pisses me off so much. Why even play this game if they don't even know what game health is?

She's not statcheck anymore so shes easier to balance. Riot just refuses to do so because they want her to be meta.

Śhunpo10 votes

She's still kinda stat-checky with her passive.

ankoanko193 votes

{quoted}

She's still kinda stat-checky with her passive.

How? Her passive requires a build up mechanic. It's not just ''i press W i deal more dmg than u big xd'' You can play around her passive.

Śhunpo7 votes

Yes, but while it's active she autos you to death due to her higher stats. That's the very definition of stat-checky.

ankoanko192 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but while it's active she autos you to death due to her higher stats. That's the very definition of stat-checky.

Isnt every champion with some sort of Auto attack enchancer a stat check then? Riven (all adcs)Yasuo TwistedFate

3TWarrior10 votes

twisted fate has the lowest damage of any mage and is entirely an early game and mid game champion. His only advantage is his ultimate, which instead of nerfing, they have repeatedly chosen to weaken the rest of his kit

Riven does not stat check at all. Instead, she does so many instances of damage that she can overwhelm anything without the bulk and crowd control to stop her, as I remember her standard combo having about 8 instances of damage in about 2 seconds

yasuo is less a stat check and more a "kit-denial" , able to upset the very foundations of the game by eliminating anything classified as a "projectile" His stats themselves are fairly terrible except for his shield

#The problem is, Stat checking itself isn't really even a thing. by the logic of it, any champion that wins via snowballing is a stat-check, which would be...everyone

ankoanko192 votes

{quoted}

twisted fate has the lowest damage of any mage and is entirely an early game and mid game champion. His only advantage is his ultimate, which instead of nerfing, they have repeatedly chosen to weaken the rest of his kit

Riven does not stat check at all. Instead, she does so many instances of damage that she can overwhelm anything without the bulk and crowd control to stop her, as I remember her standard combo having about 8 instances of damage in about 2 seconds

yasuo is less a stat check and more a "kit-denial" , able to upset the very foundations of the game by eliminating anything classified as a "projectile" His stats themselves are fairly terrible except for his shield

#The problem is, Stat checking itself isn't really even a thing. by the logic of it, any champion that wins via snowballing is a stat-check, which would be...everyone

All the champions I mentioned have some sort of auto attack enchancer Which according to the Katarina guy, Irelia is statchecky because her passive gives her magic dmg. That seems arbitrary to me so I mentioned other champs who also have some sort of AA enchancing steroid. Rivens passive, Tfs E passive, Yasuos crit passive etc.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

16 − 68 (based on level) (+ 16% bonus AD) + 30% / 40% / 50% bonus attack speed

This passive is basically the literal definition of statchecking. Boosting both your damage per attack and attack speed to out-DPS someone in a slap battle.

The problem isn't the fact she has it but rather how insanely strong it is. It's why outplaying her E, Q and R is only half the battle. Cuz if she has 4 stacks and gets on you when you're not playing someone with statcheck potential you're just screwed.

Several other champions do this as well, but most don't have the same burst damage potential along with hard CC and an incredibly strong defensive tool.

ankoanko193 votes

{quoted}

16 − 68 (based on level) (+ 16% bonus AD) + 30% / 40% / 50% bonus attack speed

This passive is basically the literal definition of statchecking. Boosting both your damage per attack and attack speed to out-DPS someone in a slap battle.

The problem isn't the fact she has it but rather how insanely strong it is. It's why outplaying her E, Q and R is only half the battle. Cuz if she has 4 stacks and gets on you when you're not playing someone with statcheck potential you're just screwed.

Several other champions do this as well, but most don't have the same burst damage potential along with hard CC and an incredibly strong defensive tool.

It ''boosts'' your AA but inorder for her to keep it up she has to waste mana and abilities. She also has to land her abilities (outside of W, but that is a nerf that has been proposed a couple of times). Nevermind how her passive stacked up basically works in the same fashion as a Yorick ghoul or Darius passive or Riven passive, as I mentioned.

It's not her passive thats so strong but conq. Her passive amplifies conq even further, which makes what should be a maximum of 30 true dmg become an additional 10 true dmg + the 80% remaning magic dmg. Her passive is not what makes her op, nerfing it would just be gutting the champions toplane potential like what happened with 8.13 and her toplane is VERY average at the moment, it's her midlane that needs addressing.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

It ''boosts'' your AA but inorder for her to keep it up she has to waste mana and abilities.

" Ionian Fervor lasts for 6 seconds, with basic attacks against champions and large and epic monsters refreshing the duration."

Hell the refresh isn't even a big part of it. What AA fight lasts longer than 6 seconds this season?

{quoted}

It's not her passive thats so strong but conq.

I absolutely love this argument. 10/10. "Irelia isn't strong, conq is!" Okay! Let's nerf Conqueror for everyone including champions who aren't even out of line with it just to balance a single outlier :D

Item/Rune is OP on one champion? Dw, let's nerf the item/rune instead of the champ, that'll fix it.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

" Ionian Fervor lasts for 6 seconds, with basic attacks against champions and large and epic monsters refreshing the duration."

Hell the refresh isn't even a big part of it. What AA fight lasts longer than 6 seconds this season?

I absolutely love this argument. 10/10. "Irelia isn't strong, conq is!" Okay! Let's nerf Conqueror for everyone including champions who aren't even out of line with it just to balance a single outlier :D

Item/Rune is OP on one champion? Dw, let's nerf the item/rune instead of the champ, that'll fix it.

Exactly, none do. So 6s is actually not that huge. The refreshing part doesnt matter since after the trading she has to stack it up again, resulting in mana losses and/or corrupting pot uses. In reality, like you said, it doesnt have to refresh. I guess this is just a placebo effect put on so that Riot basically is saying ''Irelia is totally better as a toplaner guys!''

I never said Irelia isnt op. I said Irelias PASSIVE isnt as strong as it seems, its CONQ making her passive seem so ridiculous. Even then, it's not that good compared to some other passives Tryndamere

''Item/Rune is OP on one champion? Dw, let's nerf the item/rune instead of the champ, that'll fix it'' You mean like when they removed the synergy between maw and steraks because of Graves? Or how they gutted kleptomancy only because of a select few Gangplank Ezreal ? Or how they removed will of the ancients because of Vladimir? Or how they literally made grevious wounds work on all healing only because of Soraka? Or how they reworked rageblade because of Tristana? Yeah, these things happen a lot more frequently than it seems. Conq pushed Jax and Irelia to top tier status fairly quickly. Even before Irelia was reworked she was S tier only because of conq.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

You mean like when they removed the synergy between maw and steraks because of Graves?

Because of everyone that built it. It was too good on everyone that could viably do so.

Or how they gutted kleptomancy only because of a select few Gangplank Ezreal ?

They actually nerfed Klepto because it was too strong on everyone that used it. Nasus, Sona, Fiora, etc. It wasn't just GP and Ezreal. They are just the ones that are still using it post-nerf.

Or how they removed will of the ancients because of Vladimir?

If you read why they removed spell vamp items, you'd know it wasn't cuz of Vladimir.

Or how they literally made grevious wounds work on all healing only because of Soraka?

They originally wanted to buff healers by removing that effect. They added it back later because they decided it was appropriate counterbuilding to healers.

"Sometimes, changes don’t really work out. This is one of those times. Grievous wounds working off of self-healing created a sense of hopelessness when facing stronger healers and general confusion about what applying it would functionally do. We’re reverting it to make sense with the expectation of what a healing debuff should do."

Or how they reworked rageblade because of Tristana?

...what. Pretty sure this never happened. It was reworked for the sake of reworking. There was no real reason for doing so other than to update the item in the Marksman Update.

Yeah, these things happen a lot more frequently than it seems. Conq pushed Jax and Irelia to top tier status fairly quickly. Even before Irelia was reworked she was S tier only because of conq.

Conqueror did a ton to help out Bruisers who needed a real keystone but ofc adding a new rune comes with new abuse cases. That's when you nerf the abuse cases if the rune for the majority of champions is balanced using it. That's what should happen to Irelia and Jax. Conqueror is not the issue, it's the reason they are stronger, cuz that's literally why they put it in the game: to help bruisers. The issue is the champion's kit that was built to function without Conqueror (heavy mixed damage burst DPS with high AS in both cases) that are now going overboard by converting that mixed damage into true damage with the bonus AD synergizing with their DPS.

It's a clear case where obviously these champions are gaining insanely more value from the rune than every other primary user. Thus the obvious course of action is to not nerf everyone else who is already performing at a balanced level with the rune, but to nerf the abuse cases.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

Because of everyone that built it. It was too good on everyone that could viably do so.

They actually nerfed Klepto because it was too strong on everyone that used it. Nasus, Sona, Fiora, etc. It wasn't just GP and Ezreal. They are just the ones that are still using it post-nerf.

If you read why they removed spell vamp items, you'd know it wasn't cuz of Vladimir.

They originally wanted to buff healers by removing that effect. They added it back later because they decided it was appropriate counterbuilding to healers.

"Sometimes, changes don’t really work out. This is one of those times. Grievous wounds working off of self-healing created a sense of hopelessness when facing stronger healers and general confusion about what applying it would functionally do. We’re reverting it to make sense with the expectation of what a healing debuff should do."

...what. Pretty sure this never happened. It was reworked for the sake of reworking. There was no real reason for doing so other than to update the item in the Marksman Update.

Conqueror did a ton to help out Bruisers who needed a real keystone but ofc adding a new rune comes with new abuse cases. That's when you nerf the abuse cases if the rune for the majority of champions is balanced using it. That's what should happen to Irelia and Jax. Conqueror is not the issue, it's the reason they are stronger, cuz that's literally why they put it in the game: to help bruisers. The issue is the champion's kit that was built to function without Conqueror (heavy mixed damage burst DPS with high AS in both cases) that are now going overboard by converting that mixed damage into true damage with the bonus AD synergizing with their DPS.

It's a clear case where obviously these champions are gaining insanely more value from the rune than every other primary user. Thus the obvious course of action is to not nerf everyone else who is already performing at a balanced level with the rune, but to nerf the abuse cases.

Graves was the only one who built that combination. Other adcs didnt do that since it got nerfed and bruisers were forced to buy more tankyish/rageblade.

While they did nerf klepto because of how viable it was it was MAINLY because these 2 plus Nasus abused it so well.

From the wikia ''This item was removed because it was very rarely purchased on most AP champions, since it was better to build other raw AP items to try to burst down an enemy as fast as possible and they didn't had time to sustain. In addition, most AP champions have AoE damage, meaning the sustain was too small to make this item worth purchasing. On the very few champions it was purchased, it was known to cause balancing issues. In particular, Vladimir forced this item to be balanced around his very existence, since he had WotA as his core item and could abuse it very well.''

No, I'm talking about patch 6.9. They mentioned rageblade being an oppressing item because it slipped out and was used on other champs Riot didnt intend for it to be, most notoriously Tristana.

I dont believe Irelia needs a straight nerf. I'm not confident with how good Jax is either. But what I tried to formulate in the start is, Irelias passive is not op, it just SEEMS that way because of conquerer amplifies its dmg so much. Conq is quite broken on every champion who can use it right now. Of course there are exceptions Yasuo Tryndamere but currently everyone outside of these 2 who can use conq, uses it too well. Riot nerfed the living hell out of Fervor because it made a few champions too good. Why should Conq be an exception?

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

Graves was the only one who built that combination. Other adcs didnt do that since it got nerfed and bruisers were forced to buy more tankyish/rageblade.

"Maw and Sterak’s have complementary defensive triggers: Maw cares about how low you are while Sterak’s cares about how fast you’re dropping. This presents an interesting choice in lane: which item is best for the situation you’re in? Unfortunately, that choice becomes meaningless as the game progresses and beefy champs stack both items to cover all their bases. We’re tying the shields of Maw and Sterak’s together to ensure that picking one is a choice, not just the earlier of two purchases."

While they did nerf klepto because of how viable it was it was MAINLY because these 2 plus Nasus abused it so well.

It was nerfed for being overall too abusive on anyone that could utilize it. Note how I said abusive on everyone that can utilize it. That means the rune should be nerfed, not the champions.

It wasn't just those 3 that were huge abuse cases. It was Sona Nasus Ezreal Gangplank Fiora Swain (those aren't all the users, just the abusive ones). Since there were so many abusers the rune nerf was justified. Some other users got nerfed cuz of this changed but the gain was higher than the cost in this case.

From the wikia ''This item was removed because it was very rarely purchased on most AP champions, since it was better to build other raw AP items to try to burst down an enemy as fast as possible and they didn't had time to sustain. In addition, most AP champions have AoE damage, meaning the sustain was too small to make this item worth purchasing. On the very few champions it was purchased, it was known to cause balancing issues. In particular, Vladimir forced this item to be balanced around his very existence, since he had WotA as his core item and could abuse it very well.''

This only proves Vladimir wasn't the main issue. The issue was that spell vamp was just a terrible stat that was either overtuned or undertuned depending on the champion and massively binary. That's why it was removed.

No, I'm talking about patch 6.9. They mentioned rageblade being an oppressing item because it slipped out and was used on other champs Riot didnt intend for it to be, most notoriously Tristana.

Not seeing evidence of this anywhere.

I dont believe Irelia needs a straight nerf. I'm not confident with how good Jax is either. But what I tried to formulate in the start is, Irelias passive is not op, it just SEEMS that way because of conquerer amplifies its dmg so much. Conq is quite broken on every champion who can use it right now. Of course there are exceptions Yasuo Tryndamere but currently everyone outside of these 2 who can use conq, uses it too well. Riot nerfed the living hell out of Fervor because it made a few champions too good. Why should Conq be an exception?

Conqueror is broken on every champion who can use it? Darius isn't overperforming. Fiora isn't overperforming. Nor is Yorick, Renekton, Riven, Yasuo, Tryndamere or Kled. Heck, some of these champions are even beaten by tanks still.

It's quite literally only Irelia and Jax with a sprinkle of Draven. That's it.

King Lego2 votes

{quoted}

She's not statcheck anymore so shes easier to balance. Riot just refuses to do so because they want her to be meta.

Whatever reason riot has, they need to be professional. Am i asking for Irelia to be gutted and unviable? No! All i'm asking is her to be fixed, so dealing with her would be possible rather than going "well enemy got Irelia, it's auto-lose, ff15".

ankoanko191 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fjAdQwPo,comment-id=000200010001,timestamp=2018-11-03T19:56:33.822+0000)

Whatever reason riot has, they need to be professional. Am i asking for Irelia to be gutted and unviable? No! All i'm asking is her to be fixed, so dealing with her would be possible rather than going "well enemy got Irelia, it's auto-lose, ff15".

Riot being professional in these kinds of scenarios, lol. Even with Morello, they've always had a fair share of champions they feel are obligated to dominate for a certain period of time because skin sells. Syndra was quite literally overpowered for nearly 2 years. Riven was op entire S5, Kassadin was straight bonkers entire S3, etc. These are more extreme cases than Irelia, but just pointing this out.

King Lego2 votes

{quoted}

Riot being professional in these kinds of scenarios, lol. Even with Morello, they've always had a fair share of champions they feel are obligated to dominate for a certain period of time because skin sells. Syndra was quite literally overpowered for nearly 2 years. Riven was op entire S5, Kassadin was straight bonkers entire S3, etc. These are more extreme cases than Irelia, but just pointing this out.

And that what's pushing me away from the game more and more.

Z3Sleeper17 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fjAdQwPo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-03T09:36:43.957+0000)

So old Irelia was overloaded and was a mistake with problems.

She gets reworked with MORE overloaded bs and problems.

ftfy

ZephyrDrake5 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fjAdQwPo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-03T09:36:43.957+0000)

So old Irelia was overloaded and was a mistake with problems.

She gets reworked with the SAME overloaded bs and problems.

How the hell does the design mentality work in that company? This pisses me off so much. Why even play this game if they don't even know what game health is?

old Irelia was literally a stat checking champion that would PUNISH you if you were beating her since she instead of having access to a slow she now randomly had access to a STUN from the same ability. You can complain all you want about new Irelia but she is in a way better spot than she was previously. Then again why does that matter? if something beats you it's instantly "bad for the game" no matter what

Rockem Sockm4 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fjAdQwPo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-03T09:36:43.957+0000)

So old Irelia was overloaded and was a mistake with problems.

She gets reworked with the SAME overloaded bs and problems.

How the hell does the design mentality work in that company? This pisses me off so much. Why even play this game if they don't even know what game health is?

Atleast she hard scales now and doesn't fall off......wait

Marothennan36 votes

It's not about wether we want him back or not, we NEED him

D4M2X021 votes

melee champs like irelia/xin were designed to deal with ranged and had to decide to what to build, usualy it was trinity>tank on irelia or whatever the fuck you want on xin. you just couldnt play immobile melee champs cause they werent functional.

melee champs these days do everything + more and cant be itemized against.

i remember a rioter saying 5+ years ago that "if poppy was to see pro play, we'd have to nerf her" <<<<<< we need a balance team like this

painkills5 votes

So you'd say it's good for some champs to never see proplay?

Beacon Academy6 votes

Sejuana exhibit A

Mains are happier when their champions don't dominate in pro play.

painkills1 votes

this is because...?

Beacon Academy1 votes

Mains take pride in their mastery for a champion and being able to make them work

Pros will use certain points of champion kits that become abusive with coordinated teamplay

From the mains' point of view, their champion is getting nerfed because of a dude that "didn't even use them that well"

i.e. during the 1v1 ARAM matches prior to Malzahar's rework, I cringed everytime I watched the pros (even if it was faker) used Malzahar because of how badly they played him.

painkills1 votes

So, the champ wasnt being used to his full potential, and he got nerfed because of Proplay. Therefore, its better to not see proplay so that you as a main can abuse him, but he wont get nerfed.

Thats assuming that no pro will ever be able to use your champ to full potential, which is unlikely.

Further, maining a champion that will never even be considered in proplay probably means that the champ doesnt have as much potential as other champs.

Beacon Academy1 votes

Are you assuming that everyone mains their champion because they're easily abused and OP?

Would you be happy if a champion that you liked playing had changes (mostly nerfs) happening to them every other week just because they showed up in lcs and did well in a few games?

Power Cosmic10 votes

Instead of making champions with identities Riot is just making good kits. Champs need to be designed with holes in their game. For instance Nocturne is great at getting in, but no great way to get out. He has a clear identity on what he is bringing to a game; Riot needs more of that design philosophy. Another example is Twisted Fate he is global with a nice burst combo but lacks the seige ability of a lot of other ranged mages. Xerath is artillery, Yorick is strongest split pushing, Leona and Amumu are engaging, etc. Champ identities are the best, just being all-around good (like most all reworks) isn't an identity.

Krys Star7 votes

That's like, the past 20 champions that have been released and/or reworked. They're all overloaded, and it's making playing the older champions more and more unfun and extremely unsatisfying to play. I just came back after a 9 month break 3 weeks ago, and the game was fun in its first week, but now it's horribly unfun again and making me want to take another break, likely permanently. This game just isn't the same fun as it was before.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

This game isn't fun anymore because the new developers don't design this game around being fun. It should be watchable in competitive and apart from that they jerk themselves off to champions being soooo unique and having that ONE thing for them that is so great. Take rengar how hard they jerk off to rengo being able to 100-0 in the millisecond he needs to leave stealth. Or fiora who absolutely must win every 1v1 ever and be useless and garbage about everything else. Doesn't matter if it makes the champs insanely unfun to deal with or even play them yourself, they will randomly nerf and buff some aspects until they reach a 50% winrate and call it a day. Or look at champs like evelynn. Back in the day gutted and thrown into the shadow realms because a stealthed assassin that stuns you from STEALTH IS NOT FUN. New riot be like: what if we gave her a charm then it technically wouldnt be a stun anymore? You're a genius bob. Also let's give her a giant aoe get out of jail for free nuke as ultimate i'm sure people will LOVE it.

HollowMimic6 votes

They can start with changing Akali's W that gives her permanent stealth. How did this go through from the balance team?

Aloretec4 votes

This made me chuckle because they've continued to do it and I remember reading this when he first posted it. Thanks for the laugh

Phiddy Cent3 votes

Every new champ has:

  • sustain
  • high dps
  • high burst
  • CC
  • engage tool
  • disengage tool
  • 100 dashes
  • damage reduction
  • strong early game
  • powerful mid game
  • carry potential late game
  • scales very well with items
  • enough utility to do good without items
Johnny Scythe3 votes

lol your comment scaled up too.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

I like how half the time when the casters said that X team built a late game comp they end up winning early anyway and it becomes a pure stompfest from there.

Most of those games involved Kai'Sa or Irelia.

Hammermancer1 votes

member when Jayce Ekko Azir were 'super overloaded and toxic'

but yet... it just got even more overloaded

Jayce "This is what the future looks like"

Neptunia xoxo3 votes

Somehow CertainlyT still has a job at Riot. talk about real champ health design lmao

Wild Geese2 votes

Old Irelia was one of League's worst designed champions, I'm surprised they took so long to rework her... There were other ones with far less Issues who seemed to of got priority for some reason.

Kelg2 votes

Nice, sounds like he's describing every modern meta champ.

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