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The Poppy nerfs went a bit too far

PopcornBunni··49 votes·14,161 views

She dropped from around 47% winrate to 45%. She is bordering on the "desperately unnerving" territory with these changes.

R is a lateral change at best, losing out on a quarter second of the knockup makes the followup damage it was meant to provide with the changes unwieldy. Before, even with the lockout on targetting, it allowed reliable followup damage by repositioning while they were midair. One of the higher learning curve moments for the character, but worth the payoff and simply nonexistent now.

Base Movement speed nerf hits her ability to pick up her shield, position for a tackle, roam, and get back to lane.

W resistance nerfs hurt the only point in the game she's ever been decent: mid to mid-late when she has enough resistance from items for it to make up for her lower than average baseline stats.

W movement speed nerf drastically hits her ability to position for a tackle, followup an R snapcast, or reposition to heal in lane.

E range increase doesn't make up for the beyond 50 units lost from her movement speed nerfs

Passive range buff is more than mitigated by her weakened resistances and positioning ability.

Suggested actions: Add .25 seconds back to R snapcast duration, give back the missing 33% of her W resistances (1.5x their current value).

Weaker positioning as a trade off for longer range seems like a fair exchange, especially combined with a more team-friendly R. Three major nerfs in conjunction with two small buffs and a lateral change to R, though, on one of the weakest champions in the game? That is insulting.

32 Comments

LankPants32 votes

These changes convince me even more that the balance team is utterly incompetent.

What Is Smite11 votes

{quoted}

These changes convince me even more that the balance team is utterly incompetent.

The balance team has long been considered incompetent since Season 6 when Meddler took over for Morello, I'm pretty sure Guinsoo even quit working on the balance team because Meddler's sense of balance was way out of wack, he came in not having the wealth of experience that Morello had as a Lead Gameplay Designer.

OverpoweredSoap16 votes

Who knew that nerfing a champion that was already under performing (while buffing her to be better in a VERY niche way) would make them even worse.

Did Poppy really need these heavy of nerfs while giving her something she should already have had?

nelogis7 votes

Don't worry, instead of reverting this they will randomly buff something completely irrelvant to the problems this change has brought upon her.

Like giving her 50 more mana in her manapool

ZackTheWaffleMan1 votes

Or plus 5% on all of her AD scalings

Or giving her ult a 100% AP ratio

nelogis3 votes

Nah, they will buff her AP scalings and tell everyone that Gunblade Nashors tooth on-hit Poppy had good results in testing.

Attticus Finch12 votes

Where's Rubik-sama? I want to hear his argument that she was net-buffed. I could use the laugh again.

Yaśuo Main1 votes

name does not fit

Attticus Finch1 votes

You obviously haven't read the sequel then.

Spooky Peaches9 votes

As someone who has almost all the poppy skins and a lv 5 mastery, I'd love to see her get back in the game lol*[sg-poppy]*

LilBadWitch9 votes

Just undo ALL of the compensation nerfs, and see where she lands. I still doubt that she'll even make the top 20 for winrates in support, top, or jungle.

4th3t0s2 votes

{quoted}

Just undo ALL of the compensation nerfs, and see where she lands. I still doubt that she'll even make the top 20 for winrates in support, top, or jungle.

Keep in mind the "compensation" buffs were actually nerfs from her original ranges back when she first got reworked

Daddy Tie Me Up2 votes

Good, 45% for tank is good win rate, now only if other tanks followed.

LordGeovanni1 votes

For what are supposed to be easy champions as said by all the snobby elites. Easy champions should have better winrates than 'hard champions' that win through low cooldown high damage spells, spell resets and right clicking from long range. By the logic that 45% is a good winrate for a tank a good assassin winrate would be 39% a good adc winrate would be 41% a good mage winrate would be 42% a good bruiser winrate would be 45%.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

For what are supposed to be easy champions as said by all the snobby elites. Easy champions should have better winrates than 'hard champions' that win through low cooldown high damage spells, spell resets and right clicking from long range.

Don't mind that troll. They were clearly just being salty about tanks in general for whatever reason and wished them all be outright garbage, which was obviously not right.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Oh i dont completely disagree with him though I think that in general how they balance champions around 50% winrates thats bs they should balance around 45% winrate for all classes with diffrences for how difficult a champion is which is where those other numbers come from. 'Risky' champions shouldnt have the same winrate as safe champions. But Safe back line champions like to lord themselves as risky because they dont have tank stats when they have comparable or more base stats than tanks. And Defenses stack poorly while defensive items also have less gold value per item than damage items.

Daddy Tie Me Up1 votes

For what ever reason? There is a good fucking reason to be salty about class that requires least skill to play(after enchanters) being dominant pick on top lane for 3 and half fucking seasons. Tanks are cancer, tanks are unbalanced, and riot themselves admitted that design of tanks is unbalancable. Make them garbage or make 75% of top lane roster completely useless. Make your choice.

SEKAI1 votes

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For what ever reason? There is a good fucking reason to be salty about class that requires least skill to play(after enchanters) being dominant pick on top lane for 3 and half fucking seasons. Tanks are cancer, tanks are unbalanced, and riot themselves admitted that design of tanks is unbalancable. Make them garbage or make 75% of top lane roster completely useless. Make your choice.

First of all, "skill" doesn't mean shit in the eyes of game balance. Every champion is equal. ""Skill"" catering balance destroys games, because whiny assholes like you always believe their picks should be OP just because they click more buttons or something (which for the record, having more buttons is in itself ALREADY the reward for the supposed ""skills"" given it offers more flexibility); but no, you lot want your ""skill"" champs be literally flat upgrades to other champs, and that's why catering to you lot always destroy games.

And no, tanks are not unbalanceable. The reason why they shit on bruisers is because Riot had been nerfing them for years, ofc they got shit on (there is a reason why there was the infamous "Renekton Bar", and not idk, "Amumu Bar"). And not even all tanks atm, just a selective number of tanks that are OP. It's almost like LoL players have this insane anti-tank narrative indoctrinated into every player that for some reason believe that if any tank is meta, the tank as a class is busted; ofc tanks are always busted in their eyes, because at least 1 of them is going to be meta at any given time by the simple virtue of inevitability. But ofc, that's a completely wrong way to look at things to begin with.

Daddy Tie Me Up1 votes

{quoted}

First of all, "skill" doesn't mean shit in the eyes of game balance. Every champion is equal.

You probably never saw ryze or azir before did you.

""Skill"" catering balance destroys games, because whiny assholes like you always believe their picks should be OP just because they click more buttons or something (which for the record, having more buttons is in itself ALREADY the reward for the supposed ""skills"" given it offers more flexibility); but no, you lot want your ""skill"" champs be literally flat upgrades to other champs, and that's why catering to you lot always destroy games.

And no. I dont want that. I want top lane to be dominated by picks that actually play the game. I dont care if its braindead tryndamere, or fucking zed top for whatever reason. I just dont want to loose to sunfire cape. Because tanks arent champions. They are walking sunfire capes and thornmails. Tanks dont play the game to win the lane. They build cheap items. Thats it.

And no, tanks are not unbalanceable. The reason why they shit on bruisers is because Riot had been nerfing them for years, ofc they got shit on (there is a reason why there was the infamous "Renekton Bar", and not idk, "Amumu Bar"). And not even all tanks atm, just a selective number of tanks that are OP. It's almost like LoL players have this insane anti-tank narrative indoctrinated into every player that for some reason believe that if any tank is meta, the tank as a class is busted; ofc tanks are always busted in their eyes, because at least 1 of them is going to be meta at any given time by the simple virtue of inevitability. But ofc, that's a completely wrong way to look at things to begin with.

Tanks are unbalancable. Thats what riot said. And you really dont have to think hard to find out why. Tanks are class adapted from MMOS that were designed to soak up damage. For this they had tools such as aggro spells. Sadly league of legends players poses something PvE mobs dont, even though it is hard to believe sometimes when I read the boards. They have functioning brain. And you really dont have to have 160 IQ to understand that focusing the guy that has 4k hp and 200 armor isnt greatest idea. So what does riot do to make such a class relevant even though it needs enemy to be totaly braindead to function? Yes. Thats right. They give them damage.

SEKAI1 votes

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You probably never saw ryze or azir before did you.

And that's why those champs are fundamentally broken. I'm not saying otherwise.

Though I do play my fair share of Ryze so you can probably call me a hypocrite on this. But at least I seem to lose most of my games as Ryze and that I don't really play Ranked so I guess I'm off the hook.

And no. I dont want that. I want top lane to be dominated by picks that actually play the game. I dont care if its braindead tryndamere, or fucking zed top for whatever reason. I just dont want to loose to sunfire cape. Because tanks arent champions. They are walking sunfire capes and thornmails. Tanks dont play the game to win the lane. They build cheap items. Thats it.

Tanks are unbalancable. Thats what riot said. And you really dont have to think hard to find out why. Tanks are class adapted from MMOS that were designed to soak up damage. For this they had tools such as aggro spells. Sadly league of legends players poses something PvE mobs dont, even though it is hard to believe sometimes when I read the boards. They have functioning brain. And you really dont have to have 160 IQ to understand that focusing the guy that has 4k hp and 200 armor isnt greatest idea. So what does riot do to make such a class relevant even though it needs enemy to be totaly braindead to function? Yes. Thats right. They give them damage.

In the most MSI games, out of top 5 most pick/ban champs in top lane, only 1 is a tank being Ornn. The rest are Swain, Vlad, Camille, and GP. It would be 2 if we consider top 10 instead, Ornn and Sion; though I guess you can attempt to count Gnar for being tank during Mega-Gnar but I consider him a problem on his own, but still even then, with him it only makes 3 out of the top 10 pick/ban in top.

I really don't get the extreme backlash people have against tanks sometimes. It's like they can not be played in pro scenes ever, and none of them can be meta even if by inevitability; and if either of those remotely comes true, it's a tank meta to them.

.......

As for tanks having damage (as people seem to think tank meta is a thing because Trundle is tearing up the jungle, even though he is NOT a tank, but a tanky duelist), it's also the age-long confusion that people seem to have that while everyone and their mother seem to be able to distinguish between different types of damage dealers, but their brains seem to outright stop when facing different types of tanky archetypes. Not everyone who does high damage is a burst mage, why would you think everyone who is tanky is a tank?

And it's not like there aren't such "bruisers" in WoW or whatever. Remember the fact only 1 talent tree out of the 3 in a Warrior class in WoW is actually about tanking (not sure about now, but it was at least so back in WotLK)? What's so wrong about frontline damage dealers who can take a punch as a concept? "Bruisers" and tanks distinguish themselves in that the former trades most of the time, most of their CC for damage; it may be a fine line, but they're really not the same thing and definitely can exist differently like how assassins and skirmishers are not the same thing.

Daddy Tie Me Up1 votes

In the most MSI games, out of top 5 most pick/ban champs in top lane, only 1 is a tank being Ornn. The rest are Swain, Vlad, Camille, and GP. It would be 2 if we consider top 10 instead, Ornn and Sion; though I guess you can attempt to count Gnar for being tank during Mega-Gnar but I consider him a problem on his own, but still even then, with him it only makes 3 out of the top 10 pick/ban in top.

That is now, rewind that timer of yours to the time when conqueror did not exist and riot did not fix after shock yet. Tanks are on top, tanks are in jungle, tanks are picked even on mid. Ant thats for 3 whole fucking seasons. I couldnt care less about LCS. if tanks were completely useless in solo que. But no tanks hard braindead lane phase and have much easier time teamfighting than any bruiser. Tanks need to go. Either redesigned as bruisers or swept under the rug as failed class.

I really don't get the extreme backlash people have against tanks sometimes. It's like they can not be played in pro scenes ever, and none of them can be meta even if by inevitability; and if either of those remotely comes true, it's a tank meta to them.

What is there to not understand? After 3 long seasons top lane is about fighting and not about who is gona rush sunfire thornmail first. Do you even understand how frustrating it was to be bruiser main in this meta? To have all your damage invalidated by 1 and half items? To loose 1v1s to walking sunfire cape? Is it so hard to accept that bruisers can finally play the game?

.......

As for tanks having damage (as people seem to think tank meta is a thing because Trundle is tearing up the jungle, even though he is NOT a tank, but a tanky duelist), it's also the age-long confusion that people seem to have that while everyone and their mother seem to be able to distinguish between different types of damage dealers, but their brains seem to outright stop when facing different types of tanky archetypes. Not everyone who does high damage is a burst mage, why would you think everyone who is tanky is a tank?

I am not talking about trundle or darius or garen. I am talking about malphite sion amumu maokai rammus. Last time I fought malphite, I was 4k gold ahead, 7 kills ahead on irelia "the broken champion" and he still outdamaged me by 700 damage. You know what is the funniest part? I bought trifoce steraks and titanic hydra. He had sunfire thornmail and tabis. AND HE OUT DAMAGED ME. This is infuriating about tanks. You have to be ahead by at least 4k gold to break even with them. And even then you are still worse than them in teamfights.

And it's not like there aren't such "bruisers" in WoW or whatever. Remember the fact only 1 talent tree out of the 3 in a Warrior class in WoW is actually about tanking (not sure about now, but it was at least so back in WotLK)? What's so wrong about frontline damage dealers who can take a punch as a concept? "Bruisers" and tanks distinguish themselves in that the former trades most of the time, most of their CC for damage; it may be a fine line, but they're really not the same thing and definitely can exist differently like how assassins and skirmishers are not the same thing.

Stick to league.

SEKAI1 votes

http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/picksandbans.php?id=MSI%20Play-In%202018&league=ALL&season=ALL&split=ALL&patch=ALL&role=TOP

As far as MSI is currently concerned, there were only 3 users of Conqueror out of the 14 picks for top lane. And out of the 3, only 1 (Irelia) is a dedicated Conqueror user (who used it 2 times out of her 3 matches in total), while the other 2 (Camille and Shen) use Conqueror 16.7% and 25% respectively, which translate to Camille using Conqueror ONCE out of her 6 picks and Shen using Conqueror ONCE out of his 4 picks. So Conqueror has so far appeared in a total of 4 matches in top lane, out of I believe 48 or 49 or something like that.

So I wouldn't say Conqueror plays a big role in all of this, or at least as far as top lane is concerned. It's more to do with that tanks don't have much issue at all besides a couple outliners which is more or a statistical inevitability, rather than to do with tanks themselves as far as it's currently concerned (and well, as you said, Aftershock nerfs). And I still stand by that atm there are bigger shit to fix than specifically tanks.

......

Also, with your Malphite anecdote. A lot of times people can misinterpret tanks OUT-LIVING you as OUT-DAMAGING you; different stuff. Just saying.

I got owned by Malphite a few times too (and I do rage occasionally because sometimes it does feel a bit BS), but rarely because I got bursted down, but mostly because I can't kill him (sometimes I can't even scratch him) as he inevitably clears up my HP with whatever damage he had. Though rather than his damage and survivalbility and whatever, personally I think the biggest BS factor in his kit is his ulti, given with any semblance of teamplay it seems to be almost an autowin button especially in low elo; but that's me.

Also, the current Irelia uses autoattack a lot, it's kind of expected that a Malphite who is already very much anti-AA is probably gonna tear you apart with Thornmail and Tabi both in his bag.

Daddy Tie Me Up1 votes

Also, with your Malphite anecdote. A lot of times people can misinterpret tanks OUT-LIVING you as OUT-DAMAGING you; different stuff. Just saying.

DUDE, do i have to link actuall game to you so you can see for yourself? HE OUTDAMANGED ME. I CHECKED DAMAGE IN POST GAME LOBBY.

Also, the current Irelia uses autoattack a lot, it's kind of expected that a Malphite who is already very much anti-AA is probably gonna tear you apart with Thornmail and Tabi both in his bag.

What? I am talking about total damage. He did 700 more damage to champions than I did. Unless I fought 5 malphites then I dont understand what you are talking about.

SEKAI1 votes

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DUDE, do i have to link actuall game to you so you can see for yourself? HE OUTDAMANGED ME. I CHECKED DAMAGE IN POST GAME LOBBY.

What? I am talking about total damage. He did 700 more damage to champions than I did. Unless I fought 5 malphites then I dont understand what you are talking about.

Thornmail reflects auto attack damage, the said reflected damage also scales with armour so it is going to be much more potent on an amour stacking Malphite who by the nature of his kit already has access to extra free armour. Under the right circumstances, It ramps up the damage count very quickly even if they're just standing there getting ganged by 5 people. Malphite also has 3 sources of AoE, one of which is also an AA steroid, which also ramps that figure extremely quickly in the right place if he takes the liberty after slamming in with ulti to run around hitting people when in a tight space.

And since the said match seems to have been ages ago, I can't locate it in opgg, so I can't delve further into the situation to assess the claims but I can at least lay out the possible reason why they seem to have done a ton of damage.

This same phenomenon is seen in AoE tanks like Rammus and Amumu (and they may also build things like Thornmail), or champs (especially tankier initiators) who build Hydra, where they can end the game with rather high to very high damage dealt even if they haven't really been killing people left and right. AoE and stuff like that tend to inflate the damage count very quickly when used right, it has always been that way (and this is also why Brand consistently tops the damage chart; sure his has a high base damage, but the true reason why his damage count is recorded to be so high is because of his extreme amount of AoEs (AND DoTs) when used properly).

AoEs (and some loosely "AoE" like Thornmail's reflected damage) while rushes the damage chart into the skies, it's also worth noting that it's collected incrementally so it's not as reliable as say single target burst damage, and they often don't result in as much takedowns even if they may ramp up a higher total damage number.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Honestly, i prefer a revert of the changes, positioning is just way more valuable than the bit extra range, and the old ult had a higher skill expression and was more unique. At the very least, the need to bring back the 345base ms... I also could live with changeing her W resistance to 10%(current value), increaseing to 30% at low health(old value), putting more emphasis on her beeing supprisingly tanky at low hp with out her beeing as generally tanky as befor.

Arcane Blue Boi2 votes

sometimes you just go to patch notes and you see a volibear nerf. This patch was both poppy and kennen. How unecessary lol

BigBellBrute1 votes

{quoted}

sometimes you just go to patch notes and you see a volibear nerf. This patch was both poppy and kennen. How unecessary lol

There is always that one or two in every patch that are head scratchers. Sometimes there are more.

Blåbæret2 votes

The balance team loves changing shit that doesn't need changing, but loves to avoid the real problem: ADCs (which are getting buffed in a patch meant to nerf them.

Hammermancer1 votes

Yeah but we have to remember what it feels like when she's meta

and then we have to think about that long and hard for a second

she needs a mini rework

LuthianDelphi1 votes

I mean, she can't be more broken the zoe was for like a good month after release ;/ can't be that bad to just buff her and see where it goes

T4underbolt1 votes

Nerf her DMG and then buff survavibility. Boom riot. You done it. One of the tanks balanced. All the rest to go.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Bruisers mains have a wait and see and if nothing is happening move on to another champion thats the least aweful of aweful champions attitude which is why we dont have 7+ of the same post from diffrent people with 200+ upvotes. Like Mage mains any time they get slight nerfs that move them to be less powerful than they were before which they automatically point to but then we wont be as powerful as the super broken class. Or adc mains who when they get nerfs the only thing they can say is it doesnt feel good and that another adc took my top of meta place im unplayable now that they took 2% of my pick rate.

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