Thornmail is getting grievous wound!!
Its losing its 25% armor ratio on its reflect damage, but inflicting GW for 1.5 seconds on the attacker. Its what all tanks wanted, since we have had no way to deal with drain-tanks for around 5 seasons. Plus IMO, thornmail was never about the reflect damage passive as it was to stop the enemy ADC from regening simply by attacking you.
RiotRiot Axes10 votesJust to pump the breaks a bit on this one - I had intended to roll this back before it went to PBE, but then a technical snafu sent it out anyway. This changelist is very unlikely to ship as is, there's no deadline for shipping it, and there's an appreciable chance it doesn't work out at all.
That said, yes, I'm looking into what it would take to make Thornmail the go to item to for tanky champions who need to counter runaway drain tanking damage threats.
Linna Excel1 votes
: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tundra Hunter3 votesI like that current thornmail damage helps to wave clear (like sunfire).
If you delete the 25% armor and just keep the 15% incoming damage, wave-clear and jungle-clear will be nerfed hard.
If you do valid those changes, could you buff the damage against minions and monster, just like you did with sunfire?
-Cheers'
Chromatic Eagle1 votesWait when was thornmail used for wave clear? Rammus?
Tundra Hunter1 votesYeah for example. I know it's never been a thing like sunfire. But that's just cause thornmail is less popular and more a late game item. I like the idea though, it's a macro strategy and besides its fun to wave clear with sunfire + thormail.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesCouldn't they just buff sunfire, or his wave clear in general?
Tundra Hunter1 votesThat's not my idea. Thormail is an armor with spikes. Doing damage back to the attacker is the essence of the thematic. I understand the frustration for ADC being hard countered by 1 cheap item and thus the nerf... but to keep the cool thematic, it could at least still do decent damage back to minions and monsters
Chønklord1 votesRIP 
2k17, patch 7.10. Never forget.
Aptest4 votesHi Axes,
I think the concept of thorn mail as an item that kills the attacker is not a good concept. This outright removes agency from the attacker due to the "if I don't have specific counter stat line y, this target is outside my hit list". Marksmen in particular should be target-agnostic to a great degree and the need to get the particular combo of lifesteal+mr should not get in the way of that.
That being said, thorn mail should be a direct counter to life stealing and other forms of on-hit sustain including on hit sustain that does not depend on damage dealt (Aatrox, Xin, Irelia). It's purpose is not to kill the attacker, but to make sustaining during the attack impossible.
Sohleks1 votesI wonder if that direction warrants renaming it something like "Skeleton Armor"
China would not like that tho !
I'm also thinking if Sunfire is less strong itself it opens up the option of a better Thornmail.
Or an MR upgrade of Bami's cinder that does damage in a "caster style" to contrast Sunfire Cape and launch fire back at those filthy mages! If stacking them is undesirably strong or both too weak on their own their offensive effects can be under the same unique passive
patmax171 votesI must admit, this makes me a bit sad :(
I think thornmail and randuin are in a quite bad spot, and that the "anti-autoattackers-niche" for Tank items is quite crowded with them and Frozen Heart. Is there still the plan to somehow put randuin and thornmail together? (though with criticism reduction and grievous wound it would be the go-to anti ADC item)
Dreampod1 votesJust chiming in to say that I really like this direction conceptually. It is always super frustrating as a tank to have the only valid strategy to deal with a split pusher with lifesteal be running away and hoping they can't kill you before you get under tower.
Also - have you guys ever looked at giving jungle minions Grievous Wounds and reducing their damage output slightly? It seems like a lot of the problems in jungle diversity come from the fact that autoattack focused champions can do camps with no net change in health thanks to lifesteal allowing them high health ganks but tanks or mages get trashed by the damage output necessary to make camps non-trivial to people with lifesteal.
Xenos von Faneli1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fcGLmsVB,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-05-17T04:34:41.643+0000)
Just to pump the breaks a bit on this one - I had intended to roll this back before it went to PBE, but then a technical snafu sent it out anyway. This changelist is very unlikely to ship as is, there's no deadline for shipping it, and there's an appreciable chance it doesn't work out at all.
That said, yes, I'm looking into what it would take to make Thornmail the go to item to for tanky champions who need to counter runaway drain tanking damage threats.
and now rammus is officailly dead
Penns1 votesInsert obligatory "how about making it an active item that reflects damage and even inflict grievous wounds if you want but only lats around 2-4 seconds/longer but has some other drawback like new Rammus W"
The Yetii Rider1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fcGLmsVB,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-05-17T04:34:41.643+0000)
Just to pump the breaks a bit on this one - I had intended to roll this back before it went to PBE, but then a technical snafu sent it out anyway. This changelist is very unlikely to ship as is, there's no deadline for shipping it, and there's an appreciable chance it doesn't work out at all.
That said, yes, I'm looking into what it would take to make Thornmail the go to item to for tanky champions who need to counter runaway drain tanking damage threats.
Grevious Wounds is likely too broad and punishing to certain champs. Why not just have Thornmail halt lifesteal when you are attacked. Not all healing, just life steal specifically.
DeusVult2 votesGrevious Wounds is the anti-healing effect that this game uses.
If it just stopped Lifestealing, then it wouldnt effect things like Fiora's passive/ult heal, Renekton's Q heal, Camilles W, etc.
The Yetii Rider1 votesGrevious Wounds is the anti-healing effect that this game uses.
If it just stopped Lifestealing, then it wouldnt effect things like Fiora's passive/ult heal, Renekton's Q heal, Camilles W, etc.
And that's fine. All of those champions need that healing. Thornmail shouldn't counter melee champs, it should be tuned to specifically handle marksmen who heal AND kite.
Also the Rioter already said GW on the item wouldn't work out. I was suggesting an alternative.
DeusVult1 votesIMO, the change is in the right direction, and is what Thornmail has needed for quite some time.
It might still be weak after the changes, as the 25% armor ratio helps a lot, maybe bring the reflect ratio up to 20% of pre-mitigation damage received?
Also thanks for commenting on my post
FooDang2 votesPump the breaks? I was about to pop the champagne...
Craft Zeppelin3 votesSo,,,we can finally deal with life steal splitpushers with tanks. this is good
Sasogwa3 votesI'm not gonna lie. This is a nerf to a weak item. They need to bring back a bit of the scaling armor ratio OR amplify the reflection to at least 20% maybe even 25%. Thornmail is kind of trash tier at the moment.
Mordepool2 votesSorry not Sorry
LadyRenly2 votesI am actually glad Thornmail is losing its armor bonus, having to stack armor to make it effective really pissed me off, having grievous wounds is waaay better
Silly Neeko1 votesWoot woot! Now when i use it on Morde i do not feel as bad xD
z63XnLCMwX1 votesTrynamere proceeds to press R and kill you.
Wind Whistler1 votesYou gave me two fucking heart attacks with that title. Please don't ever do that again.
I thought they were removing Urgot. I'm not sure if what's left of my heart can take anymore...
iTaLenTZ1 votesIDk the item still feels very underwhelming to me.
Thilmer1 votesLooks like a nerf to me. What's the point of doing grievous wounds if you don't do damage?
