Jungle item Warrior would never be good because it have no scaling!

Phuc Dat Bich··1 votes·981 views

So lets check the jungle items

item 3708 -Scales with AP the more AP you get the more damage you deal item 3709 -Scales with HP The more HP you get the more Tankier you get item 3710 -Scales into late game with the double proc of its own base magic damage and any other on hit items (Btrk/nashoor tooth/etc)

And then we have this item item 3707 which pretty much dosent scale to anything after 20 minutes....

I am pretty sure this item is only good for lee sin....

I mean vi can build devourer...J4 can build cinderhulk and be better special with all the nerf he got....

So this item need scaling need to be better in order to be in line with the other jungle items!! even with the devourer nerfs in the next patch the devourer would still be better than warrior by far!!

Riot need to add some scaling to this item

And idea of mine would be like after 5 kills or assists the armor penetration increase to 20 and after 10 kills or assists the armor penetration increased to 30

So this item would be a bit better late game because right now what the point to keep that item late game? you can sell it and buy yommus which is 10x stronger....

Now you can say "well you can sell runeglave for lich bane" but still the power of runeglave maybe dosent match the power of lich bane but you can still keep runeglave late game and not feel like you waste an item slot like when you keep warrior on your item slot after 25 minutes~!

16 Comments

Ionian1 votes

Also good for kha and rengar. Btw you can build cinderhulk on lee.

Phuc Dat Bich1 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fc5r3IPF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-06T17:16:48.495+0000)

Also good for kha and rengar. Btw you can build cinderhulk on lee.

if you play rengar you pretty much finish warrior after you build tiamat and yommus (same with kha execpt the yommus part)

Well lee kinda need warrior for his ratios

StrayXL2 votes

People are starting to stop getting Warriors on Kha and Rengar and just go straight into a Ghost blade it just feels more efficient

Phuc Dat Bich1 votes

{quoted}

People are starting to stop getting Warriors on Kha and Rengar and just go straight into a Ghost blade it just feels more efficient

pretty much yeah tiamat/Yommus is way stronger and better to rush than finishing Warrior..which is sad because all other jungle items are must buy for the champs that they use this jungle items!

Prospector Pete1 votes

item 3714 ^^ Why would you ever get this item

Wicked Waffle1 votes

Make it into AD Rabadons?

Enchantment: Warrior +30 Attack Damage +10% CDR +10 Armor Penetration Unique Passive: +15% Bonus AD (Beware jungle Zed)

or AD Last Whispers? (Since it builds out of Brutalizer)

Enchantment: Warrior +40 Attack Damage +10% CDR +10 Armor Penetration Unique Passive: Physical Damage ignores 25% of the champion's BONUS armor

Phuc Dat Bich1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wicked Waffle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fc5r3IPF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-06T17:40:34.028+0000)

Make it into AD Rabadons?

Enchantment: Warrior +30 Attack Damage +10% CDR +10 Armor Penetration Unique Passive: +15% Bonus AD (Beware jungle Zed)

or AD Last Whispers? (Since it builds out of Brutalizer)

Enchantment: Warrior +40 Attack Damage +10% CDR +10 Armor Penetration Unique Passive: Physical Damage ignores 25% of the champion's BONUS armor

The first sound balanced the second is just too strong :/

The Fast1 votes

Problem is that as long as it gives flat armor peneration that early into the game, it can't be allowed to scale that hard. It would have too large an early game spike for its late game impact. That first one would eventually have around 80AD on a full AD champion, and the second one may actually end up being just straight up the best jungle item this game as ever seen.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

Eh. I do think that Warrior needs a little bit of a rework as it is purely stats with no other redeeming qualities. However, the stats it gives are really strong for those who would want to use it. CDR AD and Armor Pen are everything that early pressure AD junglers need to succeed.

I don't think you should buff the item as is, like you described. It's an item that doesn't scale yes, but the champions that traditionally build it aren't meant to scale. With champions like Vi, J4, Lee Sin, and Pantheon being some of the primary users of the item, they want an item that is going to give them as much power early as possible, and the current warrior does this fairly well (particularly after the buff it's getting with the revert of its AD). The thing about scaling items is that they have to be gated by being weaker early in the game. Devourer and old Cinderhulk were cases of those lategame centered items. With Cinderhulks power shift, it joins Runeglaive in being a midgame centered item with some early power (they are kinda strong when you first buy them, but they scale when buying more of one stat, but not very hard).

Warrior is a different beast and I think it should be. The users of Warrior are all about early-midgame and they want the power in the item when they buy it. The current warrior accomplishes this fairly well as it is loaded with cheap AD, CDR, and Armor Pen, so champions who buy it get the power to enhance their early power instead of an item that will lessen their fall-off come lategame. If the item maintained that early powerspike, but then gave more stats later in the game, it would be an item that was just overloaded.

There was a version of Warrior that was on the PBE a while back, and it was very close to the old Spirit of the Elder Lizard and applied a true damage DOT on the enemy you hit with basic attacks or physical damage abilities. It was probably found to be too strong and was taken out of the game as the DOT scaled off of the Damage you dealt, which was an incentive to get the item on really high base damage champions (Lee Sin) and simply dominate. I think the item was in the right direction though and I think that we will see more iterations of Warrior in the future. The item had 40 AD, 10 CDR, 0 armor Pen and then had the true damage DOT. This could still be implemented but I think it needs to be based more on Total or Bonus AD rather than simply damage. An issue with this though might be that laners such as Zed, Talon, and other AD's might pick it up and abuse it as they amass AD rather than getting 1-2 AD items and then building defensively so this too would be hard to balance. Giving it a higher base DOT and then lowering the AD scaling might be a way to go, but I would also adjust that the damage could only be applied on Basic Attacks and that it would do more damage to monsters than champions (like how Runeglaive and Cinderhulk work).

I'm not sure ultimately if this is the correct way to go (DOT Warrior), but it would scale better than the current warrior and would feel like less of a waste come lategame. It might have to take a hit in the early game with losing it's armor pen but Brutalizer was a kinda crappy item to build from anyway as the difference between Warrior and Brut + Smite upgrade was about 60 gold so you usually wouldn't have brutalizer in your item inventory anyway as a jungler unless you skipped your upgrade. It could instead build out of double longsword or a pickaxe and have a smoother build path.

Abyssphere1 votes

But Warrior provides the strongest early spike of any item because it doesn't scale, which means it has no reliance on you having other items to be good. Yeah the other enchants are all better after a certain point but Warrior is far and away the best of them all until that point, and in the jungle that's a good thing because it makes your ganks stronger and generally facilitates snowballing.

Phuc Dat Bich1 votes

{quoted}

But Warrior provides the strongest early spike of any item because it doesn't scale, which means it has no reliance on you having other items to be good. Yeah the other enchants are all better after a certain point but Warrior is far and away the best of them all until that point, and in the jungle that's a good thing because it makes your ganks stronger and generally facilitates snowballing.

nope a guy make a math about what item is better early game and the winner was devourer then runeglave then Warrior and last cinderhulk you can search this on boards

Warrior have lost all the power that was providing because the other jungle items are simple better and stronger early and late game!!

The Fast2 votes

Did he calculate the most cost efficient?

Because that isn't the same as having the largest early game spike. Warrior still has the highest early game spike, because AD and flat arPen are much more useful stats than attackspeed and on-hit magic damage early on into the game. Devourer may be the most cost efficient, but it sure as hell doesn't have the highest early game damage spike. Warrior gives you 10arPen and 40(soon to be 45) AD for less than a BF sword's worth of gold after the smite item.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fc5r3IPF,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-09-06T22:32:26.557+0000)

Did he calculate the most cost efficient?

Because that isn't the same as having the largest early game spike. Warrior still has the highest early game spike, because AD and flat arPen are much more useful stats than attackspeed and on-hit magic damage early on into the game. Devourer may be the most cost efficient, but it sure as hell doesn't have the highest early game damage spike. Warrior gives you 10arPen and 40(soon to be 45) AD for less than a BF sword's worth of gold after the smite item.

Exactly this. FeralPony (design lead) himself responded with similar after he was questioned on the gold efficiency of Devourer versus Warrior and his stance was that gold efficiency is a completely meaningless statistic because:

  1. Not all stats are created equal - Devourer's stats may look good but AS is multiplicative, it needs more items (or stacks) to make it strong while Warrior is completely self-sufficient
  2. The gold efficiency stats are just a bunch of guesswork anyway - armour penetration is valued at 12 gold per point of pen, which FeralPony says is massively undervalued - if that value were accurate you could pick up an item with 10 armour pen for just 120 gold, which would be hilariously overpowered. Warrior is being massively undervalued on the LolWiki.
The Fast1 votes

I don't think cost efficiency itself is the issue. Cost efficiency as it is now is still a useful metric, people just treat it like the end-all be-all of an item's worth. Brutalizer is both cheaper and better than BF sword in terms of damage, but it builds into less slot efficient items.

Which is another issue. I think a more accurate issue for Warrior. As the game goes on, it isn't slot efficient. Frankly, I'm not sure if it should be. The current users of Warrior could get way too much out of the item if it scaled some how. %AD scaling could prove problematic on jungle assassins. True damage + Skirmisher's could prove problematic. Armor Shred or penetration would make assassins, Lee Sin, and Vi, all GODLY.

If Warrior is to scale like the other items, it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up to that purpose. Flat AD and lifesteal is an option. A weak sheen effect that scales with AD? Might be overkill for assassins too(ZED). Maybe something like the flesheater, but for jungle monsters only. Maybe with a cap. 20AD, 10% lifesteal, +.5 to 1AD per Monster.

Would making Warrior less early game oriented be helpful? Do the champs that buy it rely on early game presence? Do the champions that buy Runeglaive, Cinder, and Devourer, rely on early game presence?

I think my point has been made.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vârg Vikernes,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fc5r3IPF,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-09-06T22:00:07.216+0000)

nope a guy make a math about what item is better early game and the winner was devourer then runeglave then Warrior and last cinderhulk you can search this on boards

Warrior have lost all the power that was providing because the other jungle items are simple better and stronger early and late game!!

He didn't do the math, he looked at the cost efficiency on the wiki. And no matter how gold efficient Devourer may be, Devourer provides the better spike.

If you actually think attack speed at any number is better than attack damage and armour pen in the early game then you're crazy. Devourer might be gold efficient at zero stacks but it's still worthless until you have other items to make use of that attack speed.

Same is true for Runeglaive - just because Runeglaive is more cost efficient (which may not even be true anymore after the Warrior buff goes through) does not mean it's the stronger early item, particularly as part of its cost goes to Mana, which is a non-combat stat.

CoolKnightST1 votes

I'm currently working on an idea to change warriors. Would that solve the problem: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Jens_Ingels/Melee_Splitpush_Item_rework

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