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Reminder to Teemo mushroom spammers: Penetrate to make them cry

Ice Weasel X··18 votes·11,792 views

With the release of Omega Squad Teemo, I expect he'll see a temporary rise in play. That often means a lot of people who aren't familiar with his effectiveness, latching onto skewed expectations. Is it fun to mine the map? Of course! Just don't assume that stacking pure AP is the best approach. Unless you're building AD Teemo, you definitely don't want to skimp on the AP. However, his mushrooms are at their most lethal with a penetration build. The absolute nightmare of full AP Teemo was nerfed back in 4.3, when his Noxious Trap's AP ratio was dropped by over 1/3 (80% to 50%).

We've all seen the "Our [champion], their [champion]" comparisons where the other team always seems to do better with a champion. I've had a few Teemo vs. Teemo games, and penetration-based Teemo always outperforms full AP Teemo. In a situation where both Teemos are completely passive minelayers, mechanical performance is irrelevant.

This message is not to pigeonhole Teemo to a specific playstyle. If you like playing AS, on-hit, tank, bruiser, or AD Teemo, more power to you. This doesn't apply. If you prefer killing your enemies with overdoses of exploding fungi, this is for you.

Sooooo, math time.

#Minimum Expected Enemy Magic Resistance

Every champion has a base MR of 30. No exceptions. Most melee champions gain MR per level. No ranged champions (including variable range) gain MR per level. [Wiki] MR Glyphs are very common, and recommended for standard Rune Pages. [Phreak] [chart version] Non-tank champions often have 9 Defensive Masteries, for 5% Bonus MR. Another 2 MR boost is possible, but unlikely since Juggernaut is a better 9th point than Resistance (1/3). [Wiki]

What does this mean?

A ranged champion that builds no defensive items will often have 42.663 MR.

  • Base: 30
  • Glyphs: 12.06
  • Masteries: +5% Bonus MR = 12.06 x 0.05 = 0.603

That amount of MR is almost 30% mitigation.

Incoming magic damage multiplier: (100 / 144.763) = 0.70095 [Wiki]

#Mushroom Stats

Noxious Trap RANGE: 230 COST: 75 / 100 / 125 MANA COOLDOWN: 1 RECHARGE TIME: 35 / 31 / 27

PASSIVE: Teemo generates a new trap periodically, and can only store up to 3 traps at once. ACTIVE: Teemo places a mushroom trap on the ground for 10 minutes, which stealths and arms after 1 second. While armed, the traps grant vision in a 212.5-radius. If an enemy comes within 60-range of the trap, it will detonate, Poison icon poisoning, Slow icon slowing and dealing magic damage over 4 seconds to nearby enemies within 200-radius. 「 MAGIC DAMAGE PER SECOND: 50 / 81.25 / 112.5 (+ 12.5% AP)」 SLOW: 30 / 40 / 50%

Full damage for a single mushroom is base + 50% AP. Mushroom spam is gated harder by recharge time than by mana, so an early Nashor's Tooth or Morellonomicon is common to facilitate blanket shrooming.

"I'm a mushroom field layin' motherfucker, motherfucker!" - Omega Squad Jules, probably.

#Penetration versus Full AP

This comparison is merely for penetration and AP builds, not optimization. In that vein, we'll use a common set of Runes and Masteries. As a first item, we'll use Morellonomicon for CDR, mana regen, and initial AP (ignoring Doran's start). For subsequent items, Full AP Teemo will focus on the highest AP items, and Penetration Teemo will focus on penetration. "Captain Obvious on duty!"

Runes

  • Marks: 0.87 Magic Penetration x9 = 7.83 magic penetration
  • Quintessences: 4.95 Ability Power x3 = 14.85 AP

Masteries

  • Mental Force (3/3): 0.89 AP/level (16.02 AP at 18)
  • Arcane Mastery: 6 AP
  • Archmage: +5% AP

Target

  • 42.663 Magic Resistance

6000 gold

We'll assume level 10 has been reached by the time both Teemos have acquired this much gold.

Full AP Teemo: Morellonomicon, Rabadon's Deathcap

  • Flat AP
  • Runes: 14.85
  • Masteries: 6
  • Equipment
    • Morellonomicon: 80
    • Rabadon's Deathcap: 120
  • Subtotal: 220.85
  • Scaling AP
  • Masteries
    • Mental Force (3/3): 0.89 per level = 8.9
    • Archmage: +5%
  • Equipment
    • Rabadon's Deathcap: +30%
  • Total AP: (220.85 + 8.9) x 1.05 x 1.3 = 313.60875

Penetration Teemo: Morellonomicon, Liandry's Torment

  • Flat AP
  • Runes: 14.85
  • Masteries: 6
  • Equipment
    • Morellonomicon: 80
    • Liandry's Torment: 50
  • Subtotal: 150.85
  • Scaling AP
  • Masteries
    • Mental Force (3/3): 0.89 per level = 8.9
    • Archmage: +5%
  • Total AP: (150.85 + 8.9) x 1.05 = 167.7375

At this point, Full AP Teemo has almost twice Penetration Teemo's AP. Let's see what happens when our target steps on a mushroom.

Full AP Teemo

  • Target MR: 42.663MR
  • Penetration
  • Mastery: 6%
  • Runes: 7.83
  • Effective MR: (42.663 x 0.94) - 7.83 = 32.27322
  • Magic damage multiplier: (100 / 132.27322) = 0.75601
  • Rank 1 Noxious Trap
    • Raw magic damage per second: 50 + (313.60875 x 0.125) = 89.20109
    • Actual magic damage per second: 89.20109 x 0.75601 = 67.43692
    • Total raw magic damage: 356.80436
    • Actual total magic damage: 269.74768

Penetration Teemo

  • Target MR: 42.663MR
  • Penetration
  • Mastery: 6%
  • Runes: 7.83
  • Equipment: 15
  • Effective MR: (42.663 x 0.94) - 22.83 = 17.27322
  • Magic damage multiplier: (100 / 117.27322) = 0.85271
  • Rank 1 Noxious Trap
    • Raw magic damage per second: 50 + (167.7375 x 0.125) = 70.96719
    • Actual magic damage per second: 89.20109 x 0.75601 = 60.51443
    • Total raw magic damage: 283.86876
    • Actual total magic damage: 242.05772

At a glance, this seems to show that pure AP is better, right? Not exactly. First, take a look at the total differences in AP and damage.

  • AP
  • Full AP Teemo: 313.60875
  • Penetration Teemo: 167.7375
  • Damage
  • Full AP Teemo: 269.74768
  • Penetration Teemo: 242.05772

Full AP Teemo almost doubles Penetration Teemo's AP for only ~28 more total damage on a mushroom. Furthermore, Penetration Teemo could reach that damage point earlier, since the total cost of his two items was 5200g as opposed to Full AP Teemo's 5600g.

Liandry's Torment also adds some variable damage. If we assume the target is the enemy Teemo, his max HP at level 10 is 1253.76. Liandry's Torment's damage is based on current HP, so we'll use the 50% value as an average. 626.88 x 0.02 = 12.5376 raw magic damage per half second while the mushroom DoT lasts. With the target's effective MR, that's an average of 9.47855 additional damage per half second (and another 4.73928 damage per half second for 3 seconds afterwards due to the timer refresh*), which means that Penetration Teemo will usually (but not always) outdamage Full AP Teemo at this point. [Wiki]

* I've seen some debate about whether Liandry's Torment's passive DoT refreshes with each mushroom DoT tick. It does. Click a target that has detonated a mushroom, and you'll see the Liandry's Torment icon resetting constantly while the Noxious Trap icon is active.

Moving on...

6500g

We'll give our hypothetical Teemos level 11 at this point.

Full AP Teemo: Morellonomicon, Rabadon's Deathcap, Aether Wisp

  • Flat AP
  • Runes: 14.85
  • Masteries: 6
  • Equipment
    • Morellonomicon: 80
    • Rabadon's Deathcap: 120
    • Aether Wisp: 30
  • Subtotal: 250.85
  • Scaling AP
  • Masteries
    • Mental Force (3/3): 0.89 per level = 9.79
    • Archmage: +5%
  • Equipment
    • Rabadon's Deathcap: +30%
  • Total AP: (250.85 + 9.79) x 1.05 x 1.3 = 355.7736

Penetration Teemo: Morellonomicon, Liandry's Torment, Sorcerer's Shoes

  • Flat AP
  • Runes: 14.85
  • Masteries: 6
  • Equipment
    • Morellonomicon: 80
    • Liandry's Torment: 50
  • Subtotal: 150.85
  • Scaling AP
  • Masteries
    • Mental Force (3/3): 0.89 per level = 8.9
    • Archmage: +5%
  • Total AP: (150.85 + 8.9) x 1.05 = 167.7375

Full AP Teemo now has more than twice Penetration Teemo's AP. Bring on the damage.

Full AP Teemo

  • Target MR: 42.663
  • Penetration
  • Mastery: 6%
  • Runes: 7.83
  • Effective MR: (42.663 x 0.94) - 7.83 = 32.27322
  • Magic damage multiplier: (100 / 132.27322) = 0.75601
  • Rank 2 Noxious Trap
    • Raw magic damage per second: 81.25 + (355.7736 x 0.125) = 125.7217
    • Actual magic damage per second: 125.7217 x 0.75601 = 95.04686
    • Total raw magic damage: 502.8868
    • Actual total magic damage: 380.18744

Penetration Teemo

  • Target MR: 42.663
  • Penetration
  • Mastery: 6%
  • Runes: 7.83
  • Equipment
    • Liandry's Torment: 15
    • Sorcerer's Shoes: 15
  • Effective MR: (42.663 x 0.94) - 37.83 = 2.27322
  • Magic damage multiplier: (100 / 117.27322) = 0.97777
  • Rank 2 Noxious Trap
    • Raw magic damage per second: 81.25 + (167.7375 x 0.125) = 102.21719
    • Actual magic damage per second: 102.21719 x 0.97777 = 99.94490
    • Total raw magic damage: 408.86876
    • Actual total magic damage: 399.7796

So what happened here? Full AP Teemo has more than double Penetration Teemo's AP, but Penetration Teemo has pulled ahead in reliable damage. This is because even starting MR values are enough to put a serious damper on Teemo's mushrooms. If he adds a Void Staff to this setup, Penetration Teemo will be doing true magic damage until his target passes 50 magic resistance (ignoring shields, obviously).

But what about a maximum AP build vs. a penetration build? Is there a point where going all out with AP edges out penetration again?

http://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/13/laser_pointer_more_power.png

Full AP Teemo: Morellonomicon, Rabadon's Deathcap, Luden's Echo, Zhonya's Hourglass, Mejai's Soulstealer, Seraph's Embrace

  • Flat AP
  • Runes: 14.85
  • Masteries: 6
  • Equipment
    • Morellonomicon: 80
    • Rabadon's Deathcap: 120
    • Luden's Echo: 120
    • Zhonya's Hourglas: 120
    • Mejai's Soulstealer: 180
    • Seraph's Embrace: 60
  • Buff
    • Elixir of Sorcery: 40
  • Subtotal: 740.85
  • Scaling AP
  • Masteries
    • Mental Force (3/3): 0.89 per level = 16.02
    • Archmage: +5%
  • Equipment
    • Rabadon's Deathcap: +30%
    • Seraph's Embrace: 58.416 [Wiki]
  • Buffs
    • Aspect of the Dragon: +12%
    • Hand of Baron: 40
  • Total AP: (740.85 + 16.02 + 58.416 + 40) x 1.05 x 1.3 x 1.12 = 1307.56124

Penetration Teemo: Morellonomicon, Liandry's Torment, Sorcerer's Shoes, Void Staff, Lich Bane, Rabadon's Deathcap

  • Flat AP
  • Runes: 14.85
  • Masteries: 6
  • Equipment
    • Morellonomicon: 80
    • Liandry's Torment: 50
    • Void Staff: 70
    • Lich Bane: 80
    • Rabadon's Deathcap: 120
  • Buff
    • Elixir of Sorcery: 40
  • Subtotal: 460.85
  • Scaling AP
  • Masteries
    • Mental Force (3/3): 0.89 per level = 16.02
    • Archmage: +5%
  • Equipment
    • Rabadon's Deathcap: +30%
  • Buffs
    • Aspect of the Dragon: +12%
    • Hand of Baron: 40
  • Total AP: (460.85 + 16.02 + 40) x 1.05 x 1.3 x 1.12 = 790.19086

1300+ AP Teemo sounds scary. How does he perform?

Full AP Teemo

  • Target MR: 42.663
  • Penetration
  • Mastery: 6%
  • Runes: 7.83
  • Effective MR: (42.663 x 0.94) - 7.83 = 32.27322
  • Magic damage multiplier: (100 / 132.27322) = 0.75601
  • Rank 3 Noxious Trap
    • Raw magic damage per second: 112.5 + (1307.53124 x 0.125) = 275.94141
    • Actual magic damage per second: 275.94141 x 0.75601 = 208.61447
    • Total raw magic damage: 1103.76564
    • Actual total magic damage: 834.45788

Penetration Teemo

  • Target MR: 42.663
  • Penetration
  • Mastery: 6%
  • Runes: 7.83
  • Equipment
    • Liandry's Torment: 15
    • Sorcerer's Shoes: 15
    • Void Staff: 35%
  • Effective MR: (42.663 x 0.611) - 37.83 = 0 (Penetration stops at 0; only flat Reduction can drop to negative)
  • Magic damage multiplier: (100 / 100) = 1
  • Rank 3 Noxious Trap
    • True magic damage per second: 112.5 + (790.19086 x 0.125) = 211.27386
    • Total true magic damage: 845.09544

It doesn't appear that Full AP Teemo can outpace Penetration Teemo in mushroom damage, particularly because Penetration Teemo is still free to build AP. Full AP Teemo's Blinding Dart, however, does beat Penetration Teemo's since it has a large AP ratio. In fact, it has the same ratio as pre-nerf mushrooms, which is when Full AP Teemo was scariest. Luden's Echo in this case would also add over 296 raw magic damage (~224 actual damage) per target when it triggers, but that won't happen for every mushroom.

But what about enemies who aren't defenseless, such as an ADC who built a Banshee's Veil?

New Target MR:

  • Flat MR
  • Base: 30
  • Glyphs: 12.06
  • Equipment: 55
  • Scaling MR
  • Mastery
    • Enchanted Armor: +5% Bonus MR = (12.06 + 55) x 0.05 = 3.353
  • Total MR: 30 + 12.06 + 55 + 3.353 = 100.413

Our unrealistically overbuffed Teemos would do the following damage to such a target:

Full AP Teemo

  • Target MR: 100.413
  • Penetration
  • Mastery: 6%
  • Runes: 7.83
  • Effective MR: (100.413 x 0.94) - 7.83 = 86.55822
  • Magic damage multiplier: (100 / 86.55822) = 0.53603
  • Rank 3 Noxious Trap
    • Raw magic damage per second: 112.5 + (1307.53124 x 0.125) = 275.94141
    • Actual magic damage per second: 275.94141 x 0.53603 = 147.91287
    • Total raw magic damage: 1103.76564
    • Actual total magic damage: 591.65148

Penetration Teemo

  • Target MR: 100.413
  • Penetration
  • Mastery: 6%
  • Runes: 7.83
  • Equipment
    • Liandry's Torment: 15
    • Sorcerer's Shoes: 15
    • Void Staff: 35%
  • Effective MR: (100.413 x 0.611) - 37.83 = 23.52234
  • Magic damage multiplier: (100 / 123.52234) = 0.80957
  • Rank 3 Noxious Trap
    • Raw magic damage per second: 112.5 + (790.19086 x 0.125) = 211.27386
    • Actual magic damage per second: 211.27386 x 0.80957 = 171.04098
    • Total raw magic damage: 845.09544
    • Actual total magic damage: 684.16392

Naturally, as the target MR rises, the results skew harder in favor of the penetration build.

As for optimal build paths, I won't choose those for you. Just be aware that you can build Liandry's Torment, Sorcerer's Shoes, and Void Staff without wasting a single point of penetration once your opponents hit 50 MR. Unless you're playing at an extremely low MMR, you aren't going to have any games where your enemy fails to break that threshold. Liandry's Torment in particular makes mushrooms stupidly irritating, since its passive DoT is augmented by the mushroom slows and it restarts its timer with every tick of mushroom damage.

#WTFL;DR

If you're playing Teemo on my team and intend to focus on mushroom fields, please build Liandry's Torment and at least one other penetration item before you even consider grabbing a Needlessly Large Rod (honestly, I'd only pick one up as a 6th slot option, and often not at all). You'll do more damage if you stack penetration first, even on low MR targets. If you're on the other team, feel free to rush Rabadon's Deathcap, Luden's Echo, and Zhonya's Hourglass instead.

...yeah, I was bored.

11 Comments

Chaotic Reks4 votes

I swear league is the only thing people will willing do math for

Scarrad 4 Life3 votes

This is only for the shrooms, nothing else.

What about Q where the AP ratio is 80% instead of 50%, there's no refreshing Liandry's and there's no slow for double damage on the DoT?

What about E which doesn't even proc Liandry's?

You're bringing up decent points here, but honestly, not taking in to account the rest of his kit is just silly.

LXII6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Scarrad 4 Life,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fbENqczo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-11T10:10:59.925+0000)

This is only for the shrooms, nothing else.

What about Q where the AP ratio is 80% instead of 50%, there's no refreshing Liandry's and there's no slow for double damage on the DoT?

What about E which doesn't even proc Liandry's?

You're bringing up decent points here, but honestly, not taking in to account the rest of his kit is just silly.

He made it very clear that this was just about the shrooms.

Partholonian6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Scarrad 4 Life,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fbENqczo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-11T10:10:59.925+0000)

What about Q where the AP ratio is 80% instead of 50%, there's no refreshing Liandry's and there's no slow for double damage on the DoT?

What about E which doesn't even proc Liandry's?

Those things give the enemy a chance to fight back. Why do that if you have a choice?

I think the case for Nashor's + Liandry's as his core is pretty strong either way (Nashor's is obviously really good for his E too as well as providing CDR for shrooms -- and Q for that matter). The point where his build really hits a fork is whether you want a Hurricane to poison all the things, or whether you're going to focus more on global presence through shrooms (which probably means Morellonomicon or Athenes for mana + CDR).

You're just not going to be able to have the raw burst to walk up to someone and 100-0 them like Veigar or Annie unless you are hilariously superfed, because too much of his power is tied up in things like E on every attack, R global presence and W mobility.

SecretAgentHulk1 votes

Q and E both benefit from magic pen, so it's not like it's wasted. If you want to be more of an APC than a hybrid on-hit/burst mage, maybe build Runaan's instead of Liandry's, but Teemo will never not benefit from Sorc boots and Void Staff. Especially if your enemies are smart and build a bit of MR.

junglerboy163 votes

Whenever I play Teemo, I build both Nashor's tooth and Morellonomicon/Athene's to hit 40% CDR early, usually picking up haunting guise and sitting on it for a little while (to finish my Nashor's) before upgrading to Liandry's. Morellos is better than achenes at being an absolute nuisance to you opponent (because mushrooms with grievous wounds are a pain in the ass) but currently, Athenes give a lot more mana sustain which allows more constant shroom spam without basing or running myself OOM. On-hit Teemo can build Liandry's and penetration items right alongside their other items just fine, which means you can get most of the best things of both builds at once.

Kitten of Evil3 votes

To be fair, even AP Teemo would build Sorcerer's Boots, and likely also Void Staff later. So the difference may not be that great.

Really the big draw of Liandry's is the long double-effect proc.

Ice Weasel X1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fbENqczo,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-04-11T21:07:54.904+0000)

To be fair, even AP Teemo would build Sorcerer's Boots, and likely also Void Staff later. So the difference may not be that great.

This is true, but the separation of penetration and high AP builds was more to illustrate that prioritizing the penetration first allows for more effective mushrooms almost immediately, and the enemy won't have a period of comparative safety before penetration is built. Obviously, this applies to pretty much any skills that don't have a huge scaling ratio, but after playing alongside so many Teemos who rush Rabadon's Deathcap just to drop mushrooms and avoid fights (no Q+E), I figured I'd specifically mention Teemo.

Relative damage is indicated by horizontal lines:

[Teemo rushes AP] ¯¯¯ [enemy grabs MR] __ [Teemo picks up penetration] ¯¯¯

[Teemo rushes penetration] ¯¯¯ [enemy grabs MR] --- [Teemo picks up AP] ¯¯¯

Kitten of Evil1 votes

True, though I think Mpen builds seem less powerful because there's not a tooltip Mpen number on the UI, even though for many champions, Mpen is stronger than pure AP.

I'd be interested to see at what ratio AP deals more damage. Clearly a 50% AP ratio (like the shrooms) makes Mpen stronger normally, while an 80% AP ratio (like his blinding dart) makes AP stronger normally. This is probably why Zyra and Vel'Koz do so much better with Mpen than pure AP, since no move has higher than a 70% ratio between them.

idoki2 votes

I need to create a time machine to make sure I have enough time to read all of this. Zilean

Shinjusuke1 votes

OP does solid math and raises very valid points, but as was already pointed out a bit, this is purely for an "Ultra passive shroom focus" Teemo.

He has some of hte most ridiculous AP efficiency in the game (meaning "The amount of AP required to double your base damage") on his Q and E.

It's purely dependent on playstyle: You can either stack AP and be a strong burst assassin and DPS threat, or you can stack pen and have your shrooms be a menace. There's strong merits to either direction, but the people saying "YEAH PEN STACKING IS THE ONLY RIGHT WAY" need to do some math themselves, because they're sorely lacking in their numbers comprehension.

It's just different approaches guys, no one is strictly "better" than the other (at current).

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