Riots balance team is using the 10 ban system as a way to reduce their work

DeusVult··6 votes·569 views
Red Post Collection: /Dev On Launching 10 Bans, Ghostcrawler May Q&A, and more!

Draggles talks about the new 10 ban system that is coming to live soon, and how, out of all the possible ways to implement a ban system, the current blind 10 ban system on PBE is the best.

Draggles describes it as the best implementation since:

  • Everyone gets a ban
  • Equal ban power for everyone
  • Shortens champ select significantly
  • Lowest chance of permabanned champs

And for the most part, Draggles is right. But the last one, that the new system is the lowest system of permabanned champions, this is just bullshit put in so that the balance team doesnt have to put in as much work, especially in cases of champs who have been historically strong for a long time and not touched because of high elo/pro play. coughLeeSincough

If a champ, or a number of champs are consistently banned, ala Lee Sin, Lulu, Fizz, Pre-rework Kass, and inevitably at lower elos, Yasuo, than that should be a clear sign that these champs are: A. Too strong and need nerfs to bring them back in line B. Generalists who are the best pick 90% of the time and are 100% pick/ban when their numbers are decent. C. Unfun to play against , and viewed this way by 90% of the community. Aka Kass and talon when they had silences, Old viegar with DFG, Old LB, tryndamere, yasuo, Nasus (when he is strong in the meta), Irelia, Master Yi in a farm meta, Ivern, etc

By making it so that the system leads to less cases of permabans, but allowing for duplicate bans, what happens when a Champ inevitably goes over 100% ban rate??? When they have 150+% ban rate per game. Does it take that long, when literally no one on either team wants to play vs a champ for that champ to receive balance attention?

9 Comments

NinjaGuy691 votes

Does it take that long, when literally no one on either team wants to play vs a champ for that champ to receive balance attention?

It shouldn't take that long, but often times, Riot is far too slow when it comes to balancing champions. Hopefully when Yasuo (among other champions such as Fizz) does become perma-banned in most elos, Riot will finally step in and do something about him.

DeusVult1 votes

Yasou will never become permabanned in mid-plat+ , as while he is a GIGANTIC PAIN IN THE ASS to play against, he is more manageable than Fizz, Syndra, Graves, Ivern, Lee Sin

Durzaka1 votes

I still dont understand how this will lower the chances of someone being permabanned. if anything, it will heighten it with both teams getting a chance to ban Lee or Yas or whatever.

Stars Shaper1 votes

The thing is that if bans are done by turns you'll immediatly see if some1 has already banned the champion you wanted to ban too and that means that you can go to your second choice.

It is true when they say that last bans (take as example the LCS way of banning) would be a lot meta intense and most likely the third ban will always be either Lee or Yasuo anyway.

The 10 blind+contemporary bans model allowes some champions to escape the ban phase because they'd be ppl second choice and will limit the 100% bans to the most hated ones.

I want to train with Yasuo and I know I will be unable to play him for the most unfortunally. But then I hope we'll get a better model or that ppl will simply change attitude and leave him alone when there are more powerful ppl to ban before.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUqOe0dP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-05-27T20:00:40.677+0000)

I want to train with Yasuo and I know I will be unable to play him for the most unfortunally. But then I hope we'll get a better model or that ppl will simply change attitude and leave him alone when there are more powerful ppl to ban before.

That's kinda the real trick with the Banning thing though. The desire to create player agency is going to allow all players to have a voice, but that won't necessarily have to correlate with the tier list. People will simply ban champs that frustrate them. The other point Riot brought up in analyzing the different options, was to prevent and obligation of later bans to ban the meta picks. (Similar to How one will Play a Glass cannon top laner, and demand the support play tank.)

Still though, there's going to be more strategy in banning than just the tier list. If I plan to play champion X, I can go ahead and ban away his/her counter.

Stars Shaper1 votes

But then again, how many would allow a Yasuo to pass the ban phase?

Unless both mid and toplaner play specific counters to him he is going to be banned. I am part of the problem because I know I will always ban Fizz even if I'm playing a direct counter (unless asked for a specific ban) because I don't want even others to give him a chance to get fed.

Durzaka1 votes

Thats an interesting way to look at it. I see.

So in theory, whats gonna likely happen is that peoples primary choices are going to approach close to permaban, but stuff that was annoying/threatening but not worth your first ban are actually going to get lower ban rates.

I dont think I like that.

Aterpater2 votes

Exactly. This is why this whole new system isn't just a terrible idea but kind of a hoax. Everybody who I know personally are very upset about it and would rather stick to the current one than the new if they can't have proper 10 bans, and as I browse through the forums and comment sections under announcements, seems like the majority of the community aswell.

Everybody can do the math and see that this new "blind ban" system won't really result in more than 6-7 bans on average. So, things won't really change at all in this sense. But on the other hand, it will take away a huge part of strategic planning and counterbanning and will allow way more room for unwanted "cancer" champs to slip through the banning phase. So, people who are craving to see "permabanned" champs are very likely will be very disappointed.

And the excuses to not implement the system what we see in pro play - and everybody was waiting for... - are terribly weak:

1 "We wan't to decrease the time to get into a match". Sure, that's a problem. But as even Riot themselves said, it isn't about a too long banning phase but the many dodging. And people aren't dodging because they can't sit through the roughly 2 minutes banning phase but because they got autofilled and didn't get their prefered role. Or because their one-trick pony has been banned - but this won't change much in the new system and you even have to add to them the people who will dodge because their most hated champs don't end up banned. If they want to shorten the ban/pick phase, they should just make the slight change that only the locked-in bans/picks are visible to the opposition. As this would perfectly discourage the silly habit of some blokes to cycle through all the available champs and wait till the last second it would already help a lot. Actually, I believe that picks/bans would be under 5-10 seconds except when you really have to consider or discuss something.

And the main reason behind dodges is autofill, even they know this. And despite many Riot employees said before that it's only neccessary in top elo matchmaking, lower elos would work without it, the reason why everybody has to live with it was that "we want to keep LoL the exact same from lowest elo to pro play, this is one of our primary policies" (btw this sentence came up million times in balance discussions too...). So, what is this double standard that we can't get rid of a "band aid" fix in the enough populated elos but we can have a basically very different banning method in pro games?? Are you kidding? Where is your so called "policy" on that? (Btw, as a support main I'm autofill protected so my negative opinion on that isn't personal whinning at all...)

2 "We don't want certain champs to be permabanned and we don't want some people to be unable to play the champ they want". So, what? Yes, this is the real reason behind not giving us a proper 10 ban system - they practically don't want to give us a 10 ban system. As they want to keep bans in a pretty much irrelevant level - as for this size of a champion pool, that 6 bans don't mean anything. People - and I say it to the "I won't play my "main" from now on" whinners too - shouldn't play a draft mode in a MOBA if they want to play one specified champ doesn't matter what or if they aren't okay with bans in general or don't have a reasonable champ pool size. Becaue that's what a draft mode is all about. And it isn't an arguement even that can it work or not, as back in the days of DoTA (where even LoL sprung out from as we all know...) you had 10 bans for a bit smaller champ/hero pool what we have now and it worked like a charm. Sure, certain heroes were regulary banned to hell and it forced a much better balance what finally lead to a hero pool where close to 90% of it was a valid pick and not just 20-30 of them based on the current artifical "meta rotation", like in LoL nowadays. But isn't this what we are all looking for and why many many guys cried for a 10 ban system since ages?

TL;DR: I don't want to be offending but I can't get how some people can't see that the new system won't solve the queue dodging problems, won't give more bans on average and even take away a lot of options, like counterbanning. Sad but it's basically spoofing the community...

Lord Desert1 votes

Freakly speaking, it doesnt. Atleast not for everyone. It lowers the total amount of "perman banned" champions. It technically does lower the chances of "permabans" against the 3rd-4th best champs. But the highest banned champs will stay the same or even rise in terms of banrate.

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