when are you going to make brands passive scale with ap again?

Critmaster Garen·Oct 16, 2018·58 votes·17,953 views

wasnt he supposed to be a mid lane mage at some point instead of a bot lane carry next to his marksman support?

pls tune down the base damage (1% to 5%) and put a reasonable ap scaling on his passive so it scales back up on actual mage items.

right now it increases by 9% even at 800 ap compared to its base damage with 12% to 16% on level.

make it 1% to 5% on level with a 2.5% per 100 ap scaling. puts him back up around similar values as now, IF he buys ap instead of support items.

73 Comments

DanjengOct 16, 201829 votes

I like the direction of higher scaling and lower base, but your values are a nerf even to full AP mid Brand, ~~only breaking even at 800 AP~~. Assuming full build Brand has 500 raw AP (high estimate, it's actually lower) from items, plus Rabadon's passive, he still only has 700 AP.

Edit: Brand would actually need 1100 AP to break even, which is not possible unless he builds Seraph's + RoA + Rabadon's + Spellbinder, two other high AP items, Infernal Drakes, and Baron buff. Brand supp is cancer but your values are absolutely wack.

MATHS Live Values: 16% base (+1.5% per 100 AP) Post Values: 5% base (+2.5% per 100 AP)

Where x = AP

.16 + (.015x) = .05 + (.025x) .11 + (.015x) = (.025x) .11 = .01x 1100 = x

It would take 540 AP to just match a live value Brand with 0 AP.

Do I think Brand supp is cancer? Yes. However I am a man of maths and won't let that cloud my judgement.

Critmaster GarenOct 16, 20188 votes

{quoted}

I like the direction of high scaling and lower base, but your values are a nerf even to full AP mid Brand, only breaking even at 800 AP.

considering that the value is really fucking high right now, breaking even at a high ap value makes sense. especially since in the original case with his current scaling, i assumed 800 ap aswell.

otherwise it gets absurd, when he does finally stack a lot of ap.

maybe put the point to break even at 700 ap, but it shouldnt be too low.

D357R0Y3ROct 16, 20185 votes

you think mages get 700 ap?

god how can people be so ** jesus

LordGeovanniOct 18, 20181 votes

if your mage isnt mana less it can easily hit 700 ap without runes runes only make it even easier as you can get an easy 200

CarnicoreOct 16, 20183 votes

That's probably why it scales so little to begin with.

Critmaster GarenOct 16, 20183 votes

{quoted}

That's probably why it scales so little to begin with.

but the base damage is insanely high. they have a lot of room to shift power from the base value into the scaling.

and its not just the level scaling base value itself. item 3151 also adds a flat base to his passive.

CarnicoreOct 16, 20182 votes

I wouldn't say it's "insanely high" but you're right that midlane Brand could use some love and support Brand could handle a nerf. But it's not as simple as "lower base damage, higher scaling"; support Brand builds almost as much AP as midlane Brand.

DanjengOct 16, 20181 votes

Woops made a calculation error, so I corrected it. Brand needs a bit more AP to reach live values.

5050BSOct 16, 201813 votes

Meanwhile Riot Nerfed to the ground Midlane Zyra because her support play was "Too oppressive"

But Brand Support is totally fine.

Daddy AntsOct 17, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Riot Nerfed to the ground Midlane because her support play was "Too oppressive"

But Brand Support is totally fine.

IS too oppressive.

Not was.

Lux Velkoz Zyra should fuck off back to mid lane where they belong.

5050BSOct 17, 20182 votes

God yes PLZ

ÆtheistOct 16, 20189 votes

This wouldn't change the fact that Brand is rather bad at roaming, rather bad versus mobile champions, and functions better in a lane where the targets are generally immobile AND there are two of them for his ultimate to bounce off of.

All the same reasons you can never push Zyra back into mid lane either, more or less.

It probably doesn't help that Brand has obnoxiously high MP5 for a damage mage, so Frostfang is highly effective for his mana pool.

L RayquazaOct 16, 20187 votes

Here is the problem with Brand in bot lane, you are building mid lane anyways, never seen Brand build Censer or Redemption; it's still Rylais, Lyandries, Deathcap

StrawberrycocoaOct 16, 20182 votes

Brand is just the worst offender of one of the game's biggest problems: letting the units built to be solo-lane damage dealers into the "support" role. They steal kills from the Marksmen who are SUPPOSED to be the ones farming up in that lane, and most of them don't buy ANY supporting items. They're just mid-laners who wanted to cheat the queue by stealing another classes' entire slot.

Support slot Mages are nothing more than they same crybabies who used to pick troll-supports just because the matchmaker threw them into the role and nobody would give in to their tantrums to swap spots.

ErrastasOct 16, 20186 votes

“Steal kills” that’s a load of the bs. Most mage supports do all the work while the adc farms. I love to play traditional supports, but you can’t always carry a lane with those.

StrawberrycocoaOct 17, 20181 votes

I love to play traditional supports, but you can’t always carry a lane with those.

That's kind of where I fall on it. I love buffing and empowerment and defensive (as in protecting and defending allies) playstyles, but those always come at the price of relying on your allies to actually make USE of them, and you still get outdone by raw damage no matter what.

To me, the game started falling from grace way back when they started nerfing defensive play and encouraging risky high stakes ego-wankery.

LordGeovanniOct 18, 20181 votes

While i agree with the steal kills part mage supports shouldnt have decent base damage and also scale well with ap. (not talking brand because his base damage far surpasses decent and is heavenly) Mage supports should have really poor early game damage to scale up as a second mage that comes on line slightly later than the mid lane mage. Mage supports doing tons of damage early pushes out tanks supports and enchanter/ defeinsive supports.

ErrastasOct 21, 20181 votes

Mage supports are meant to beat tank supports. Healing/shield supports would be doing better if they didn’t try to trade every second with a mage.

LordGeovanniOct 31, 20181 votes

thats dumb considering what mage supports bring being damage are what tanks are supposed to be good against and everyone else swears that tanks counter mages.

ErrastasNov 1, 20181 votes

Mages > Tanks > Enchanters > Mages. For the most part

LordGeovanniNov 1, 20181 votes

i Say the other way around Tanks supposed to be mages because they supposed to out tank the poke and hard engage during their downtime. Enchanters beat tanks because they can cc peel when tanks engage and negate the damage of a hard engage. and mages beat enchanters because they can force both the enemy adc and enchanter off of farm and poke more often and harder than they can shield or heal.

LordGeovanniNov 1, 20181 votes

I do agree that enchanters would do better if they didnt try to trade with mages but then everyone takes to the boards to complain about not being able to get kills in lane because Janna / lulu just sits back and shields the adc so that it takes no damage when engaged upon.

DarukongSrOct 16, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Brand is just the worst offender of one of the game's biggest problems: letting the units built to be solo-lane damage dealers into the "support" role. They steal kills from the Marksmen who are SUPPOSED to be the ones farming up in that lane, and most of them don't buy ANY supporting items. They're just mid-laners who wanted to cheat the queue by stealing another classes' entire slot.

Support slot Mages are nothing more than they same crybabies who used to pick troll-supports just because the matchmaker threw them into the role and nobody would give in to their tantrums to swap spots.

You have a trash attitude. You have no sense of game diversity my friend. Damage supports are not even close to the reason this game is busted right now.

StrawberrycocoaOct 17, 20184 votes

You have a trash attitude. You have no sense of game diversity my friend.

I guess, objectively and if I take a step back from my impotent fury, I can see what you mean by that. It just frustrates the hell out of me trying to play a utility character (I love buffing and empowerment play) only to be bullied around by the damage dealers that were never meant to be there in the first place, and feeling like nothing I can bring to the table with my preferred archetype is effective or worthwhile.

Ahri InariOct 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I guess, objectively and if I take a step back from my impotent fury, I can see what you mean by that. It just frustrates the hell out of me trying to play a utility character (I love buffing and empowerment play) only to be bullied around by the damage dealers that were never meant to be there in the first place, and feeling like nothing I can bring to the table with my preferred archetype is effective or worthwhile.

That's exactly how I feel as Brand vs Nami. If my adc is not Lucian to all in with me I just sit until team fight.

Ahri InariOct 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Brand is just the worst offender of one of the game's biggest problems: letting the units built to be solo-lane damage dealers into the "support" role. They steal kills from the Marksmen who are SUPPOSED to be the ones farming up in that lane, and most of them don't buy ANY supporting items. They're just mid-laners who wanted to cheat the queue by stealing another classes' entire slot.

Support slot Mages are nothing more than they same crybabies who used to pick troll-supports just because the matchmaker threw them into the role and nobody would give in to their tantrums to swap spots.

You must be a salfish adc. Brand doesn't have to play around you. You play with Brand, he is as valuable as you. Brand ask eguality.

StrawberrycocoaOct 18, 20181 votes

Nope, not an ADC main, I mean I play the sometimes, but not primarily. I'm just and old-school "babysitter" style of support who gets on grumbling sessions.

Ahri InariOct 19, 20181 votes

Oh I see, I mistaked you for a selfish adc, my bad.

StrawberrycocoaOct 19, 20181 votes

What. The actual. FUCK. With that faked quote.

Ahri InariOct 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What. The actual. FUCK. With that faked quote.

Don't you think there are some logical similarities?

StrawberrycocoaOct 19, 20181 votes

Okay (1), no I don't, and (2) how fucking DARE you try to make it look like I said such a horrible thing.

ModPeriscopeOct 20, 20182 votes

Please refrain from editing and manipulating comments.

If you have any questions about this moderation, feel free to reach out to us in the Boards Discord.

sobi999Oct 17, 20182 votes

Boards concerned about the damage of an immobile mage, with decent winrate and playrate, instead of the current abusers of meta. Sure enough brand is oppressive, because he is one of the few supports mages that rely on damage as a form of support; usually in cases where the adc lacks the damage early game.

I still think his ult is really dumb for how easy it is to use but his passive is not the problem if you want him to go to midlane. It is his waveclear early game. As a support brand main, i would love to go mid brand but with such bad wave clearing and AP ratios , i am afraid he is not viable there.

His damage is definitely high but he pays off for that by his lack of mobility and utility. If you put too much AP ratio in his passive, he will literally melt tanks but if it is too low, he is going to be useless against squishies that can burst him.

If you wanted him completely out of mid (which seems the most logical solution), then his passive base damage needs to be reduced and his base and AP ratios on his abilities need to be increased, especially on E so he can waveclear better. His Ult also needs to be more useful in 1v1 matchups and since his gameplay is similar to that of a battlemage (wage ravoc in team fights), he needs to scale harder into late game. Currently, brand is a early-mid game scaling champ, who drastically falls off late game due to everyone having lifesteal.

en2queOct 17, 20181 votes

You havent been 1 shot by a 0/8/2 brand with only item 3020 and item 3098 have you?

Its clear that his base damage is way too much. He's literally the only champ to have a massive powerspike from t2 boots.

sobi999Oct 18, 20181 votes

Got 300k mastery on brand, never one shotted anyone no matter how fed i have gotten in lane, let alone with just boots. I do remember chunking squishies health to 60-70% with just W and passive + liandries damage (not taking into account the 25% extra damage on his W, if target was ablaze).

Unless the squishy disconnected and was lower level, i highly doubt that your scenario is not exaggerated.

His base damage is high, never disagreed with that, but he pays off for that for lacking utility and mobility. You don't want him to have his main source of power (damage) to be nerfed and still be viable? Also, check his winrate late game, it drops off due to lifesteal. He just spikes really hard with liandries and rylais and is decently tanky as well due to in-build HP.

AddMe SpaceBøundOct 17, 20182 votes

Why does he needs more damage ? He already one shots with a combo having 1 item.

Critmaster GarenOct 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why does he needs more damage ? He already one shots with a combo having 1 item.

do you understand how base damage and ap scalings work?

he doesnt get more damage from this. but hed need to build ap to get the same damage he has now.

ZephyrDrakeOct 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-10-17T18:29:18.542+0000)

do you understand how base damage and ap scalings work?

he doesnt get more damage from this. but hed need to build ap to get the same damage he has now.

So tell me how will this help his mid lane? All you are doing is making him weaker until he gets a bunch of items

Critmaster GarenOct 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So tell me how will this help his mid lane? All you are doing is making him weaker until he gets a bunch of items

it doesnt. it just kicks him out of support.

if the really struggles mid lane after that, hed probably need adjustments to the rest of his kit. like mana costs, or base damage on his w. i dont want him to be useless, but i want not to be afraid of him blowing me up when he doesnt buy items, and i want to be able to shut him down and prevent him from scaling.

brands job isnt that of a champion who waveclears and roams into bot lane, like an assassin, or long range mage like lux. instead he scales into a teamfight threat similar to annie.

So what you want is for him to be useless until he gets a bunch of items?

yes? like pretty much every other carry? because thats what brand is.

he has shit for utility and his entire kit is burst + dps with health shredding over time, and his damage scales insanely well into lategame because of it.

the fact that a almost 100% damage focused mage with almost no utility except for that single target stun is still playable in support (not in the carry role, which would be fine) speaks for itself. his base damage is massively overtuned, and he should be changed around to scale with gold and big ap items, and get pushed back into the solo lane (or at least out of support. duo lane is actually fine, if hes the one who farms for gold and doesnt just auto scale).

Ahri InariOct 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T04:05:46.430+0000)

it doesnt. it just kicks him out of support.

It doesn't push him to mid lane nether. And if we use these exact number you proposed, it will kick him out of the game. ADC cried until Riot kick out everything that is not a marskmen out of adc role and now you want to kick out Brand who's been support since his season 5 rework. You are killing diversity.

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T04:05:46.430+0000)

if the really struggles mid lane after that, hed probably need adjustments to the rest of his kit. like mana costs, or base damage on his w. i dont want him to be useless, but i want not to be afraid of him blowing me up when he doesnt buy items, and i want to be able to shut him down and prevent him from scaling.

I think you don't understand his problem in mid lane. Brand lack of so many thing such as mana, waveclear, roam potential, core item delayed for mana, slow attack speed for last hitting, and is countered by almost every mid laner for beeing weak agains't most mid laner (roamer, assasin, artillery mage) and doesn't scale as hard as anivia, veigar or ryze.

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T04:05:46.430+0000)

yes? like pretty much every other carry? because thats what brand is.

he has shit for utility and his entire kit is burst + dps with health shredding over time, and his damage scales insanely well into lategame because of it.

He need WAYYYYY better number than that, he will get outmatched by a bunch of mid laner in late game.

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUN4fJ0s,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T04:05:46.430+0000)

the fact that a almost 100% damage focused mage with almost no utility except for that single target stun is still playable in support (not in the carry role, which would be fine) speaks for itself. his base damage is massively overtuned, and he should be changed around to scale with gold and big ap items, and get pushed back into the solo lane (or at least out of support. duo lane is actually fine, if hes the one who farms for gold and doesnt just auto scale).

R is a multi target slow and rilay, one of his core item become a perma slow.

CLG FactorOct 17, 20182 votes

But then how am I supposed to 1v9 when I get autofilled to support?

Ahri InariOct 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

But then how am I supposed to 1v9 when I get autofilled to support?

Pick pyke

CLG FactorOct 18, 20181 votes

Except Pyke normally doesn't do enough damage to set up his own kills.

Support PositionOct 17, 20182 votes

Hopefully never. Unless they want to reduce all his % by about 20%.

Sire HippingtonOct 17, 20181 votes

Not disagreeing with giving him a bit more scaleing/less base, but...not sure if the passive is the place to do so, and even if so...again?!? His passive dot never scaled with AP, and the ratio on the explosion that was added in his rework didn't change since then. It's just semantically wrong to use 'again' when talking about something that never occured befor, implementing wrong facts(aka you're question implements that brand once had ap-ratios on his passive even though he never did)

Back to the toppic of brands balance: I think him haveing relatively good base damage and thus a high synergie with pen and rylais/liandries opposed to raw ap is and always was somewhat iconic to him, so one has to be carefull when shifting from base values to scaleings. However, i do think there is currently quite some room to shift power from base to scaleing without turning him into an deathcap rushing ap-stacker.

Slim GragasOct 17, 20181 votes

Maybe when he doesn't already do too much damage especially when used as a support?

LordGeovanniOct 18, 20181 votes

Brands passive needs to not scale with ap and lose damage % hp damage is already toxic brand has it on a dot that applies multiple times and off of items too so it doesnt even have a down time as opposed to the .75 second downtime i would usually have on a full combo with no ult.

Emerald FangOct 18, 20181 votes

Brand's passive should be changed to flat w/ AP scaling. He shouldn't have a super-Liandry's.

Passive: 30 - 100 + 20% AP per ability stack, over 4 seconds. After reaching 3 stacks it will detonate, instantly dealing (90 - 300 + 60% AP) (3 stacks' worth of burn damage) as TRUE DAMAGE, consuming all stacks of Blaze (meaning the target won't burn anymore) and then an additional 10% maximum HP (magic damage) after a 2 second delay. (Formula: 30/90 + 5/15 per level until level 7, then +10/30 per level until level 11). Rewards poking more because letting the burn last for 3 seconds then poking again, letting it last another 3 seconds then finishing with the E or other ability means you can get maximum damage (that's like 120% AP in about 6 seconds).

His AP ratios need bumps and his base damage needs to be lowered. This'll make him more mid-viable. Q: (80/110/140/170/200 + 55% AP) => 50/80/110/140/170 + 65% AP W: (75/120/165/210/255 + 60% AP) => 50/80/110/140/170 + 80% AP E: (70/90/110/130/150 + 35% AP) => 30/50/70/90/110 + 30% AP, doubles effect of Blaze (burn only, not detonation) on the target for 4 seconds. R: (100/200/300 + 25% AP) => 100/150/200 + 50% AP, second and further hits deal 70% damage, maximum bounces increased to 4/5/6

IDK the numbers are probably shit but whatever

ZephyrDrakeOct 18, 20181 votes

So what you want is for him to be useless until he gets a bunch of items? How does that help his mid lane?