103 Comments

BLIGHTBRINGER66 votes

Riot might as well just delete them from the game, they have no purpose anymore...

  • Do they prevent you from getting tower dived? (X)
  • Do they deal any damage? (X)
  • Do they die within 7 minute mark? (✓)
  • Do they only steal your minion gold? (✓) xd
SmashinBob40 votes

Towers reported, x10.

SSShutTheDuckUp7 votes

They still give a solid chuck of gold to the enemy team though, why ignore that /s

Bjørnetjenesten3 votes
  • Do they reveal Akali ? (X)
D2T Undeeds33 votes

"Towers so weak right now"

Sure, let's disregard the fact that he has 125 armor from items only. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he heals based on % of missing health with a Spirit Visage. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he spams a 200HP shield about 12 times. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he was already doing that in S4 (tanked 20 shots with less armor, 1k less health and less regen).

Can't wait for Riot to buff them so they deal % max health true damage through Shields while applying Grievious Wounds, because apparently tanks shouldn't be able to soak up that much damage.

EDIT : I'll just clarify a few things. I'm NOT saying tower damage is fine, I'm saying that in the current state of things and in this particular situation the outcome isn't surprising at all AND has been achieved in the past. I mean it's a fed Udyr building tank and spamming his shield under the worst turret in the game that has finished scaling 15 minutes ago, nothing to see here really.

Obviously, my last statement was not meant to be taken seriously.

Romans VI XXIII18 votes

but udyr isn't a tank lolz

D2T Undeeds34 votes

So no matter the champion, you should die even with 6k effective HP, over 200 armor and heals for % max health based on % missing health ?

Sure Udyr isn't classified as a tank but my point still stands : with the way towers have functionned for several seasons now and Udyr's kit and itemization, this clip isn't that shocking.

Rockstar Gritys5 votes

Actually, they should die if they stand there too freaking much. That's how things should work, not tanking more than 35 shots in a row and still have the same amount of HP they had since the very beginning because that's just ridiculous.

You are literally defending another version that has an equal disgusting view - That a tank can infinitely tank tower shots at the expense of nothing and since your reasoning is, in fact, Riot's reasoning to balancing towers we might as well not have a single tower in game and have inhibitors placed all around the map, after all, they withstand more damage than that "let's pretend I am dealing damage" simulator.

D2T Undeeds3 votes

No, my reasoning is a fed champion with a kit allowing him to mitigate sustained damage and building tank items that synergize with said kit should be able to tank many towers hits, especially when it's 20 minutes into the game under an outer turret which reaches its maximum damage output at 7:00, while not being pressured by the enemy team.

This clip isn't about towers being weak (which they are), it's abour Udyr being exceptionnaly good at tanking towers, which has been almost always been the case.

My point is that you can (and probably should) argue that towers aren't strong enough but don't use a cherry-picked example of one of the "worst offenders" in an ideal situation.

If you still believe that, even in those perfect conditions, Udyr and tanks shouldn't be able to tank that much damage then I really don't know what to say. My joke about % max health true damage through Shields while applying Grievious Wounds must sound like a great idea to you but overbuffing towers or nerfing tanks is just punishing proactive plays. Maybe I'm the only one but I don't want the game to become "Well they are under their tower, nothing we can do until we get Baron". But that's just my personal opinion.

Sure towerdiving should always risky (and it still is )), but I feel like this Udyr clip is just put forward to create an outrage in the community when its content shouldn't be that shocking when considering the facts I mentioned.

Then again, I am entitled to my own opinion, I could be completely wrong about this whole thing but that's why we are here, right ? I wasn't trying to defend "Riot's reasoning" or anything, I was just giving my point of view after doing a bit of critical thinking on this clip and the whole tower discussion.

(TLDR : As someone else said below. Point valid, argument wrong)

goodiesohhi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=D2T Undeeds,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQvefqHe,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-31T10:02:55.485+0000)

No, my reasoning is a fed champion with a kit allowing him to mitigate sustained damage and building tank items that synergize with said kit should be able to tank many towers hits, especially when it's 20 minutes into the game under an outer turret which reaches its maximum damage output at 7:00, while not being pressured by the enemy team.

This clip isn't about towers being weak (which they are), it's abour Udyr being exceptionnaly good at tanking towers, which has been almost always been the case.

My point is that you can (and probably should) argue that towers aren't strong enough but don't use a cherry-picked example of one of the "worst offenders" in an ideal situation.

If you still believe that, even in those perfect conditions, Udyr and tanks shouldn't be able to tank that much damage then I really don't know what to say. My joke about % max health true damage through Shields while applying Grievious Wounds must sound like a great idea to you but overbuffing towers or nerfing tanks is just punishing proactive plays. Maybe I'm the only one but I don't want the game to become "Well they are under their tower, nothing we can do until we get Baron". But that's just my personal opinion.

Sure towerdiving should always risky (and it still is )), but I feel like this Udyr clip is just put forward to create an outrage in the community when its content shouldn't be that shocking when considering the facts I mentioned.

Then again, I am entitled to my own opinion, I could be completely wrong about this whole thing but that's why we are here, right ? I wasn't trying to defend "Riot's reasoning" or anything, I was just giving my point of view after doing a bit of critical thinking on this clip and the whole tower discussion.

(TLDR : As someone else said below. Point valid, argument wrong)

We understand your point that the kit of udyr is good for tanking turrets. But 40+ 50+ etc shots is ridiculous even if they are healing and shielding.

{quoted}

Tbh anyone could do that with just about any tank or any fighter with a decent heal (dari, illaoi, yorick for example). Naut, ornn and zac could also pull this off pretty easily.

Sure they wouldn't kill the tower, but the fighters would 1v2 dive, kill them both and escape while the tanks allow risk free 2v2 dives

Can confirm. Playing Yorick, you can also take up to inhib tower in like 12 minutes. Ive done it before.

Romans VI XXIII1 votes

My point was your argument was based of ud being a tank, when he is not.

Horse Grenades18 votes

[{quoted}](name=D2T Undeeds,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQvefqHe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-30T13:25:32.599+0000)

"Towers so weak rignt now"

Sure, let's disregard the fact that he has 125 armor from items only. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he heals based on % of missing health with a Spirit Visage. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he spams a 200HP shield about 12 times. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he was already doing that in S4 (tanked 20 shots with less armor, 1k less health and less regen).

Can't wait for Riot to buff them so they deal % max health true damage through Shields while applying Grievious Wounds, because apparently tanks shouldn't be able to soak up that much damage.

If you think it's cool for someone with 3 tank items to tank 40 consecutive tower shots... I don't know... we just disagree on a very base level. I agree though, towers should do scaling damage.

D2T Undeeds7 votes

Not every champion can do this with 2 completed items + boots. I'm just arguing that in this particular scenario it makes sense especially since outer turrets are the weakest and Udyr is good against sustained damage.

Horse Grenades7 votes

[{quoted}](name=D2T Undeeds,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQvefqHe,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-07-30T14:25:11.569+0000)

Not every champion can do this with 2 completed items + boots. I'm just arguing that in this particular scenario it makes sense especially since outer turrets are the weakest and Udyr is good against sustained damage.

But... why should any champion be able to do this? I remember when Elise was a high priority pick for her ability to tower dive and lose aggro. Literally anyone can do it now, the only thing in the game not doing enough damage are towers

Zone of Endless2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ApocaIypse Meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQvefqHe,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-30T15:23:58.857+0000)

But... why should any champion be able to do this? I remember when Elise was a high priority pick for her ability to tower dive and lose aggro. Literally anyone can do it now, the only thing in the game not doing enough damage are towers

Because you're 21 minutes into the game with a fed champion against outer turret. Outer turret is meant to be "useless" after 7-10 minutes.

Outer turret is fine as it is tbh. The inner/inhib turret need some buffing so that they dont fall 2 minutes after outer fall.

PB4UAME5 votes

Outer turret is meant to be "useless" after 7-10 minutes.|

What in the actual fuck. Its a tower defense strategy game that is literally entirely based around keeping your structures alive while destroying your enemies base first to win.

How does that make a lick of sense? Towers actually scale in stats and ramp up over time, with them current maxing out the 30 minute mark for the outer turrets, as their armor and magic resist values, as well as AD are maxed out by that point (starting at minute 16. So, 6-9 minutes after you're erroneously and completely out-of-your-own-ass claiming they should be "useless", they get 1 armor/mr per minute going from 55 to 69.,and at 28:00 for their AD, which starts at 170 and then increases by 4 AD every minute after the 7 minute mark). You don't know what you're talking about at all, and are as wrong as you can be.

The reason the other towers are even weaker in the current meta, is their stats don't start growing until the 20+ minute mark, and max out at 45 minutes, in a meta where the nexus is usually destroy by or around the 20 minute mark.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Turret You might want to go through this page for a while and brush up on how turrets actually work.

Red Wreckage3 votes

"starting at minute 16"

actually fking pathetic lol. by 16 minutes, one of the teams is usually dancing around inhibitor towers.

PB4UAME2 votes

It takes 45 minutes for the towers to scale up fully, with some not even starting for the first 20-30 minutes, that's the real joke. When's the last game you played to 45+ minutes anyway?

PB4UAME3 votes

Outer turrets are actually the strongest, with them getting weaker and needing more time to scale up as you get deeper into the base. The Nexus turrets for example, are individually worth about 40% the stats of a super minion, and one single super minion, if not obstructed by your minion waves, can take both nexus towers by himself before both towers focusing him will kill him, as in the last few years they gutted those towers, removed their 75% armor pen and slow, destroyed their stats, killed their attack speed, oh, and made all towers do 30% less damage to siege and super minions.

It used to be the way you are describing about 3 years ago, for what its worth. Towers have received repeated chain nerfs, and damage to towers have received chain buffs since then. For example, magic damage to towers is literally over twice what it was three years ago, as the AP ratio on champion damage to towers was originally .2 AP and now its .6 AP, or three times as high, with the additional fact that magic penetration as well as armor penetration both apply in flat and % form to turrets further increasing damage. More abilities like Yorick Q can be used on turrets, minions auto push and get super buffs just for your team having taken more towers and/or having higher average exp, and well, turrets have lost thousands of health, even some resistances, as well as damage, AND had their time scalings cut as well in either damage, health or resistances depending on which tower you're talking about, with some losing base values and stats over time for all three.

BiasZebra2 votes

I've been having an idea for a while, as a way for a team on their back leg to regain a bit of footing. Keep Nexus turrets as weak as they are, but they respawn, like an inhib, at a third of their health or half or whatever. And give a minor, but still useful buff for when a team is inside their base, or a small but still effective debuff for a team inside enemy territory. Usually, once a team goes inside, it's game over unless they screw up incredibly bad. Give a bit of chance for the team to save themselves.

Blakiepug18 votes

[{quoted}](name=D2T Undeeds,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQvefqHe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-30T13:25:32.599+0000)

"Towers so weak rignt now"

Sure, let's disregard the fact that he has 125 armor from items only. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he heals based on % of missing health with a Spirit Visage. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he spams a 200HP shield about 12 times. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he was already doing that in S4 (tanked 20 shots with less armor, 1k less health and less regen).

Can't wait for Riot to buff them so they deal % max health true damage through Shields while applying Grievious Wounds, because apparently tanks shouldn't be able to soak up that much damage.

He was under tower for almost a full minute. Like okay he has Tabi's and Frozen Heart but to stay under tower for this long is quite absurd. Sure tanks should be able to withstand more tower shots than most but not for this long (especially at this point where he only has 2 armor items, imagine how long Udyr could be there at full build).

D2T Undeeds13 votes

It's an outer turret, they scale until 7 minutes only. He is obviously fed and as such, over-leveled. Finally, he has a kit that allows him to mitigate sustained damage and synergies with his item build.

Would you be shocked if a fed Mundo tanked that many tower hits with his ult ?

Blakiepug13 votes

[{quoted}](name=D2T Undeeds,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQvefqHe,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2018-07-30T15:52:18.314+0000)

It's an outer turret, they scale until 7 minutes only. He is obviously fed and as such, over-leveled. Finally, he has a kit that allows him to mitigate sustained damage and synergies with his item build.

Would you be shocked if a fed Mundo tanked that many tower hits with his ult ?

Honestly, yes I would. Diving a tower is supposed to be risky. And even if it is an outer turret, the amount of time he is under it for is absurd. Yes, he should be able to last under that turret for a good while because he built somewhat tanky but a full minute is not okay. Towers have to mean something so that if you play a champion with good cc and the enemy screws up during a dive they are punished for it.

PB4UAME3 votes

Bruh they fucking start scaling at the 16:00 and the 8:00 minute mark for their resistances and damage respectively, and aren't done scaling up until the 30:00 minute mark. You have no idea what you are talking about.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Turret

BestPudgeNA7 votes

{quoted}

He was under tower for almost a full minute. Like okay he has Tabi's and Frozen Heart but to stay under tower for this long is quite absurd. Sure tanks should be able to withstand more tower shots than most but not for this long (especially at this point where he only has 2 armor items, imagine how long Udyr could be there at full build).

He shields and heals for like 8k damage. This is just something Udyr has been able to do for a very long time and it's something unique too him as a champ.

Slythion10 votes

The video you linked showed him tanking tower for 27 seconds from full to just about 17% hp.

The video posted by OP shows him tanking tower for nearly 50 seconds (almost twice your clip) yet leaving tower with around 37% of his hp

...do you really not see the difference? I understand your argument for how he's able to do this, but I don't understand the belief that this should be acceptable. You shouldn't be allowed to tank towers for a full minute

Rins Thigh Socks5 votes

{quoted}

The video you linked showed him tanking tower for 27 seconds from full to just about 17% hp.

The video posted by OP shows him tanking tower for nearly 50 seconds (almost twice your clip) yet leaving tower with around 37% of his hp

...do you really not see the difference? I understand your argument for how he's able to do this, but I don't understand the belief that this should be acceptable. You shouldn't be allowed to tank towers for a full minute

He also has much less armor and hp, much less sustain, is significantly less fed, and instead of actively trying to mitigate the effects of the tower, he's teleporting. In the main clip, he's using Spirit Visage and constantly using his shield + lifesteal, and he has at least a thousand more hp.

Do you not understand why the difference exists?

Aram Mama 3 votes

i hope that fact that you are down voted to oblivion tells you how wrong you are, delusional by yourself maybe one day you realize lmao.

D2T Undeeds3 votes

No it just tells me that most people don't understand or don't want to understand my point that this clip isn't about turrets being weak (which they are), but about Udyr's ability to mitigate sustained damage extremely well.

KnifeCat3 votes

[{quoted}](name=D2T Undeeds,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQvefqHe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-30T13:25:32.599+0000)

"Towers so weak right now"

Sure, let's disregard the fact that he has 125 armor from items only. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he heals based on % of missing health with a Spirit Visage. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he spams a 200HP shield about 12 times. Sure, let's disregard the fact that he was already doing that in S4 (tanked 20 shots with less armor, 1k less health and less regen).

Can't wait for Riot to buff them so they deal % max health true damage through Shields while applying Grievious Wounds, because apparently tanks shouldn't be able to soak up that much damage.

EDIT : I'll just clarify a few things. I'm NOT saying tower damage is fine, I'm saying that in the current state of things and in this particular situation the outcome isn't surprising at all AND has been achieved in the past. I mean it's a fed Udyr building tank and spamming his shield under the worst turret in the game that has finished scaling 15 minutes ago, nothing to see here really.

Obviously, my last statement was not meant to be taken seriously.

I have a hard time grasping how someone can defend turrets. Do you actually enjoy turrets being almost non existent outside the first 3/4 mins?

D2T Undeeds2 votes

And I'm defending towers how exactly? Did you even read my comment in its entirety? My point was that Udyr has always been really good at mitigating sustained damage from towers and as such was a poor example to illustrate the current state of towers.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Turrets have built-in armor penetration, they just have terrible attack speed and take too long to scale up damage to remain a threat. Spirit visage amplifies healing, not healing a percent of missing health; that's part of udyr's kit, not the item's power. More like turrets are the only thing tanks can ignore, however udyr is a bruiser lol.

D2T Undeeds1 votes

I agree with your first point.

Maybe I didn't formulate it correctly but that's exactly what I meant to say about the healing : he has % max HP heal based on % missing health, boosted by a Spirit Visage.

Lastly, about Udyr not being a tank, perhaps the champion categorization is too rigid, a lot of bruisers, fighters, juggernauts can build pretty much only tank items and still be effective. Where do you draw the line between tanks and champions building tank items ? Is Garen a tank or not ?

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

It could've been a typing oversight, I often screw up grammar and occasionally fix it later, but thought I'd point it out anyway for clarification.

I try to avoid being rigid in categorization, since I support alternative playstyles, and disappointed riot has been quietly reducing them; anyway it's a fallback if you're counterpicked, or a way of surprising an enemy if they expect the obvious. I wouldn't describe it's crossing a line but more as a gradient triangular graph, with assassin, skirmisher, and tank as the points. Juggernaut being between skirmisher and tank, diver between assassin and skirmisher, and vanguard between assassin and tank. With bruiser being in the middle of the three extremes; fighter is a generic term for any melee champion so I won't use it. Where they fall in the chart I'd say depends on a handful of factors; mobility, durability, damage, crowd control, and utility. Bruiser being the most flexible of the seven types, and the usual go-to label since items and runes shift the champion a bit on the chart. I could go into more detail about each if you'd like but it could be quite the ramble.
In this setup I'd say garen & udyr would be divers; as they can either be brick walls or dangerous duelers, yet lack the conventional sudden mobility and immense damage to quickly bury an opponent, nor have multiple crowd controls to play as bodyguards or manipulators.

Akali is SO HOT13 votes

Fed af Udyr spams shields under an outer turret and lifesteals off of minions with 125 armor from just items alone. If you gave the same build to almost any other champion and had them tank the turret, they wouldn't survive even half as long as Udyr.

Tychusfindlay9187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQvefqHe,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-07-30T21:25:49.509+0000)

Fed af Udyr spams shields under an outer turret and lifesteals off of minions with 125 armor from just items alone. If you gave the same build to almost any other champion and had them tank the turret, they wouldn't survive even half as long as Udyr.

I'd imagine it's a fairly legitimate point to bring up that no champion under any circumstances should be able to survive more than 15 or so turret shots.

Akali is SO HOT6 votes

Yes what happened in that clip was pretty dumb. Cherry picking a very specific scenario where a champion that has a kit that allows him to do that doesn't mean everyone in the game can. Doesn't really prove anything.

DuskDaUmbreon9 votes

The issue here is less to do with turrets and more to do with Udyr.

Your point is valid, but your argument is not.

Horse Grenades3 votes

{quoted}

The issue here is less to do with turrets and more to do with Udyr.

Your point is valid, but your argument is not.

Unfortunately, you stating an argument is invalid does not actually invalidate May argument without some type of concrete evidence..

DuskDaUmbreon7 votes

Your argument is not invalid merely because I said so, but because this is a know issue with Udyr.

You showed a highly atypical example of turrets being too weak - Udyr tanking it for forever. If you had showed a more realistic example (someone who isn't tanky as fuck with a spammable shield and innate lifesteal), you'd have a far more legitimate case.

Unfortunately, you chose Udyr - a champion that is absurdly durable for the amount of sustain, shielding, movement speed, and damage he has.

Anin7772 votes
Daddy Ants8 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbRiYV5SBAI

That should NOT be allowed.

Either increase the damage of the towers or increase the armor penetration % their Penetrating Bullets passive has.

30% armor penetration on a turret is a joke.

Back in S6 the Laser turrets had 75% armor penetration.

YuGiHo3 votes

Reworking aatrox because hes a statcheck champion and leaving udyr in his state is bulshit.

Shatter the Sun3 votes

I honestly think tower should do percentage health true damage. Keep them weak early but if it isnt down 15 minutes then have fun trying to tower dive when its pumping out vayne silver bullets every shot. Objectives are just as important as dealing with other champions so why dont they feel as important?

For full team 700 gold we need some behemoths to be protecting us.

Diving needs to be risky regardless of items. Fear the tower.

BiasZebra1 votes

In my opinion, turrets shouldn't be strong later in the game. In early game, turrets protect you. In late game, you protect turrets.

But still. That's just pathetic. A turret shouldn't be as useless as a minion wave. Something like stacking damage against champs that were hit recently by it longer than the damage boost it has now would be better.

Anin7771 votes

"You protect turrets" . Well yeah but give them dmg to help us protect them?

BiasZebra1 votes

My personal opinion is that outer and inner turrets should stay as weak as they are, but inhib turrets should be stronger, and Nexus turrets should respawn.

Usually, defending against an enemy siege is way too hard. Once you're on the back foot and the enemy is in your base, you've already lost. Defense should actually be made plausible. I personally believe that champs in their base should have a minor but still effective buff to help defend.

Anin7771 votes

Won't say "stay weak". Give them fortification buff depending on their location. Outers get buff for 7 mins instead of 5. Inner gets 14 mins. Inhib gets 20 mins plus lazer. Nexus get 30 mins plus lazer and shields allies.

BiasZebra1 votes

Like the idea, though I'd prefer that only Nexus turrets have the laser.

PaladinNO2 votes

Twitch wreaks havoc with my browser security extensions (or the other way around), so I haven't watched the clip. But on a general basis:

Yup, origami is usually just for show. Which is what I have addressed the turrets as for the past 2 years. They can give the odd papercut now and then, but that's about it.

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