Hey Riot Meddler! Love the game and love how often you guys update the game and try to keep it balanced. I was hoping you could give us a feel on how the balance team feels about damage creep? Do you guys feel like damage is too much early and make winning fights just about who lands an ability first?
Edit: Maybe give us a feel for your team's thoughts on power creep and mobility creep? Are you guys trying to combat it, or embracing it?
Liofa19 votesRiot has never addressed damage creep and they never will cause what are they going to say? yeah we damage creeped the game through the roof and even though it's stupid as fuck, that's how we want you to play the game cause it's our fantasy for players to have this agency.
Horse Grenades2 votes[{quoted}](name=Tyrian Purple,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QqhcH8lK,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-22T18:10:50.095+0000)
Riot has never addressed damage creep and they never will cause what are they going to say? yeah we damage creeped the game through the roof and even though it's stupid as fuck, that's how we want you to play the game cause it's our fantasy for players to have this agency.
I would be fine if they said that, if that's how they feel. I would just like to know what THEY know about it
TheDelighted35 votesThat's not entirely true. Back in the days, rito did care about damage creep. That's the reason dfg was removed from the game in the first place. I don't know what happened season 6+. It's like they pressed a switch and suddenly started throwing the game balance out the window.
ModCaptainMårvelous29 votesThe way I see it, for the longest time League was a game based around being similar to dota but having no clear "direction" of what to do with it. They just sort of threw things at the wall to see what stuck. (Which is also why about/over 50% of champions came out during Season 1-2 despite not innovating as much as a release like Ivern or Taliyah will today) However, around the tail end of Season 5 they finally had a somewhat clear idea of how the game should be going.
This is why we see large-scale class reworks with some goals in mind:
Is Riot always successful? Not really. Their first two big class reworks (ADC and Juggernauts) were pretty meh-to-bad. But the clear goal they have in mind is to update everyone and try to make it so that there are clear difference where it was once about picking whoever the best tank/bruiser/etc. is.
As an example: While the pro meta is Ashe/Varus/Jhin/Ezreal they have clear traits that they share. Such as a long range and some utility, instead of merely being "The best ADC". Comparatively. The ezreal/corki/graves trinity of old didn't really have much in common save for all having abilities. Not saying it's 1:1 perfect but Riot's goal is clear.
Whether they can "reach" that goal is another story however.
Horse Grenades1 votesThe way I see it, for the longest time League was a game based around being similar to dota but having no clear "direction" of what to do with it. They just sort of threw things at the wall to see what stuck. (Which is also why about/over 50% of champions came out during Season 1-2 despite not innovating as much as a release like Ivern or Taliyah will today) However, around the tail end of Season 5 they finally had a somewhat clear idea of how the game should be going.
This is why we see large-scale class reworks with some goals in mind:
- Improve differences between champions so that they have more unique niches. (Ziggs is the tower killer. Brand is the AoE desroyer. Zyra is the plant mage, etc.)
- Make items less about stat sticks and more about using actives. (Compare Rabbadons/Void staff to the Hextech line.)
- Update old champions so that they're playing league in a style more akin to newer releases.
Is Riot always successful? Not really. Their first two big class reworks (ADC and Juggernauts) were pretty meh-to-bad. But the clear goal they have in mind is to update everyone and try to make it so that there are clear difference where it was once about picking whoever the best tank/bruiser/etc. is.
As an example: While the pro meta is Ashe/Varus/Jhin/Ezreal they have clear traits that they share. Such as a long range and some utility, instead of merely being "The best ADC". Comparatively. The ezreal/corki/graves trinity of old didn't really have much in common save for all having abilities. Not saying it's 1:1 perfect but Riot's goal is clear.
Whether they can "reach" that goal is another story however.
Good point! I just feel that at some point everyone just does stupid damage even without items. I think they could improve this "spike" curve on champions to help better define roles
Adriqnohee2 votesWell the assassin's update was a step in the right direction, the update was a direct attack to the damage creep, lets just hope it was intentional.
TheDelighted8 votesThe way I see it, for the longest time League was a game based around being similar to dota but having no clear "direction" of what to do with it. They just sort of threw things at the wall to see what stuck. (Which is also why about/over 50% of champions came out during Season 1-2 despite not innovating as much as a release like Ivern or Taliyah will today) However, around the tail end of Season 5 they finally had a somewhat clear idea of how the game should be going.
This is why we see large-scale class reworks with some goals in mind:
- Improve differences between champions so that they have more unique niches. (Ziggs is the tower killer. Brand is the AoE desroyer. Zyra is the plant mage, etc.)
- Make items less about stat sticks and more about using actives. (Compare Rabbadons/Void staff to the Hextech line.)
- Update old champions so that they're playing league in a style more akin to newer releases.
Is Riot always successful? Not really. Their first two big class reworks (ADC and Juggernauts) were pretty meh-to-bad. But the clear goal they have in mind is to update everyone and try to make it so that there are clear difference where it was once about picking whoever the best tank/bruiser/etc. is.
As an example: While the pro meta is Ashe/Varus/Jhin/Ezreal they have clear traits that they share. Such as a long range and some utility, instead of merely being "The best ADC". Comparatively. The ezreal/corki/graves trinity of old didn't really have much in common save for all having abilities. Not saying it's 1:1 perfect but Riot's goal is clear.
Whether they can "reach" that goal is another story however.
Their approach before the assassin update was change stuff because change is good, giving way too much credit in thematic coherence than gameplay health and thus gave really flawed designs (Mages are the prime examples of that). Since then it seems they have learned their lesson with the release of assassin update (which by me is the one and only successful class update). Yes we can all agree that season 6 was by far the most content full season. 2 class updates (3 if you count assassins) summoner's rift got revamped, gameplay reworks all over the place and so on. It seems like they are reworking the whole game from the ground up.
But I don't think they have a bigger screen when doing so. They rework ~4 champions every class update with minor balance changes to others in the class, and bring items that go along with these said ~4 champions not thinking the consequences to other classes. An example of this was juggernaughts. Brought items that synergize extremely well with other champions, it was only a matter of time before some of them started abusing the shit out of them. Or items to mages that was supposed to be for ap bruisers were abused by others like syndra and cass. My point is, before starting to rework the whole game they should have taken a step back and consider what these changes will bring to the whole game and not just in the class.
Then on the other hand we have masteries. Before they were a basic stat upgrade with little impact in the game. Yes they didn't provide much and they didn't have to. Right now masteries are a mess. They provide unnecessary power that is abused by certain champions. Consider this: Was soraka broken in season 5? AKA season before keystones? She had a much more powerful kit but noone said anything. Then comes riot introduces windspeakers breaks her, removes grievous wounds and breaks her even more. Now if we were to take that mastery away she would take a huge hit as she literally depends on it to bring out her power. And that's my point. Keystones instead of being a boost of power has been "integrated" on certain champions' kit.
Anyway, I could write forever with what's wrong with the game right now but many posts have covered basically all of what I said. The point is, Riot doesn't have a clear view of what's going on. They should step back and consider "What is the purpose of these reworks?" Is it gameplay health? Is it thematic coherence ? Are they both? And then start doing stuff again.
ModCaptainMårvelous6 votesAnyway, I could write forever with what's wrong with the game right now but many posts have covered basically all of what I said. The point is, Riot doesn't have a clear view of what's going on. They should step back and consider "What is the purpose of these reworks?" Is it gameplay health? Is it thematic coherence ? Are they both? And then start doing stuff again.
(I'm just picking this part out so I don't fill the entire screen with my post.)
See, here's where I disagree. The assassin rework wasn't so much about "thematic cohesion" (Which I'd liken more to the Juggernaut update and things like Darius getting massive AD or Skarner using goofy spires) as much as it was trying to address the concern the playerbase had about assassins. Which, at the time, was "I have no time to play against an assassin". Of course, not every champion has changed in this pattern and those are most often the ones who are strongest. Rengar, Kha'zix, etc. Still, the goal was clear even if it didn't hit the mark completely.
Since Season 2-ish, Riot's sort of been struggling to make a firm divide. How much solo potential is fair for a team to have? How much should you rely on your team? Etc etc etc. It kinda went back and forth in all seasons up to 6-7 when they sort of settled on "Ok THIS is going to be our plan." Which is why despite rotating metas and balance changes, things have still stayed relatively the same both in design and ideation: Riot wants to focus on that team play.
However, when it comes to masteries and runes, I'm in the camp that we should honestly just remove both systems. Neither one is "strategic" and neither one changes things in an interesting way. Regardless of season or iteration, mind you. Sure, every champ might have their own unique mastery path now...but it's still a "right" path. Same with runes. It's a revolving door of what is best. Remove those and you can balance the actual game better rather than balancing around taking the right/wrong runes.
Also, to be fair, I'm pretty sure they do consider the buffs/nerfs that could happen with other character classes. The real issue is that you can't really do anything about it because those classes are up for a rework. For example, 
was really good with tanks and still is, despite being designed as a bruiser/juggernaut item. So do you remove DMP or HEAVILY nerf it (I'm talking making this thing Ohmwrecker) or do you wait to rework tanks and give them items that work better with said class?
I'm still very much of the belief that the reworked classes (Juggergods, ADCs, Mages and Assassins) are playing 2017/Season 7 LoL, for better or worse. However, the unreworked classes (Tanks, Divers, Melee Carries, etc) are playing 2012/Season 2 LoL. And unfortunately, the transitional period is the hardest part.
Sorry if this is long winded. I really enjoy talking about this stuff.
dEAdbUs2 votesMasteries and runes can't be removed, because there are rpg leveling mechanic in game. And players get runes slots and mastery points per level. Remove those systems and leveling will lose its sense. "Wow I got new level, I'm so excited about it, what I'm going to get for it? What, nothing? Why then I wasted my time and can't play with other players right from start?" Then how are you going to motivate all those new players to learn league? Gringing level is boring itself, without rewards it will be even more boring.
Atanchan1 votesCould probably just replace them with assured Hextech drops with every level up. That's what a lot of other games with similar systems do.
dEAdbUs1 votesIf we look at Overwatch, it's not that simple as you can image. There is no clear point where newbie becomes serious player like in LoL (30 level). Yes, you get drops there, but level there is a reward itself, because it almost limitless, shows your skill and improves as beautiful badge. So levels in LoL and Overwatch are very different and mean different things even if they both called 'levels', and because of that they use different ways to reward players. That's why, I think, Riot won't be able implement drop mechanic so easy, unless they fully change meaning of levels.
Game design, bro.
Atanchan1 votes... I'm not sure how "fully change the meaning of levels" isn't implicit with removing one of the main reasons why low-level plays are objectively at a disadvantage versus high-level players.
I'm also not really sure how leveling up suddenly becomes a reward all on its own when it's limitless. I think you mean to actually point out that leveling up just feels better in Overwatch because of all the bells and whistles put on it - there's a section of the post-game screen that focuses mostly on your EXP bar filling up, and when it does, you get a fanfare and a fancy "level up!" message. That, combined with the loot drop, is what makes leveling up a reward in Overwatch - because they actually bother to make it feel like one, rather than just a number going up.
It's also worth remembering that half of the grind that comes from leveling up in League does involve the removed mastery points and rune slots. The other half of it is unlocking other summoner spells and unlocking ranked, the former of which is ... kinda silly but reasonable, and the latter seems pretty dang obvious and it goes with "what a lot of other games with similar systems do," see: DOTA 2 and CS:GO.
dEAdbUs1 votesYou are correct about your vision of level in overwatch - that's what I meant. Also I want to add other players can see your level, so you can compare yourself with other players. "Who's bigger".
Here is main difference between overwatch's level function and lol's - first shows who's skilled, second shows you're ready to play lol (have enough knowledge). However both give same feeling of progress while player is leveling. Remove runes and masteries and lol's leveling will lose that feeling.
Also you mentioned another reason why runes can't be removed - you need to grind them really hard or buy. Both things connected - make them easy to grind and nobody will buy them, make them unavailable for purchasing, and people will complain about grind. All this needed for two things too: rpg element and money for Riot.
Maybe once Riot will change whole system, but as you see runes are implemented in many game's things, so it won't be easy and won't be soon.
Atanchan1 votesstat boosts to your champion that are significant enough to tilt the lane advantage between two equally skilled players would not be wanted at all if you made them too easy to get
wat
nobody complains about the current grind for runes
wat
Maybe once Riot will change whole system, but as you see runes are implemented in many game's things, so it won't be easy and won't be soon.
I'm well aware that removing runes would require a pass-over of every champions base stat line and likely tweaks to them for several patches after that, but frankly I wouldn't be surprised if that's something Riot would like to do, just not something they value enough to schedule a balance or gameplay team to do it over the plethora of other stuff they could be do.
Runes just don't seem like something that really fits what current Riot really wants in their game. They're not really interesting in the slightest, barely visible, and are just stack sticks. I really can't help but feel that the only reason they maintain runes is because it'd be more work to remove or fundamentally rework them.
dEAdbUs1 votesRunes and rune pages are not only about balance. It's also part of their inner game economy (ip, rp system).
Atanchan1 votesThey don't really do anything to solve the economy's issues, though, they just prolong the period before you've bought everything you can with IP until the next champion is released, and you just insta-buy them because you've got like a million IP.
And before that point, they actually make it feel really bad, because you need a lot of runes to optimize your in-game play, but doing so means you don't have an IP for champions. Which, if you're buying runes, you are probably far from owning all of them or even all of the ones you want. Which means you have to save up to grab the runes you need, all while your collection of champions grows stagnant because runes and champions are both so expensive IP-wise that you have to pick from one or another.
And that's on top of having to grind for champions already feeling bad. The economy part of runes is easily the worst part of them - if you just obtained them at certain level thresholds and had a complete set just by hitting 30, then they'd still feel pretty out of place and only around for legacy reasons, but at least they wouldn't make the out-of-game elements of League feel so much worse.
dEAdbUs3 votesMost champions were released during s1 and s2 not because Riot didn't want bring quality in game, but because game simply needed champions to be playable. Content. It's hard to play if you only have 10 champions to choose from.
Now, when players have enough champions to play, Riot have more time to think about new champions.
MetalGearTeemu1 votesYou can just say "Balance the Game like Dota2" that is honestly what we want, but Riots too headstrong to understand they're making the same retarded mistakes Dota was ironing out as a custom map in warcraft 3 years ago.
ModCaptainMårvelous1 votesUnfortunately, there are a lot more problems than that.
For one thing, DOTA ironed things out as a mod and had zero community input. Oh, sure, they could complain but Icefrog almost never listened to normies. He was all about the pro scene...you know, that thing everyone here says they hate and how RIot should just let it die.
The other thing is that DOTA All Stars could do something extremely powerful League can't: Delete characters. Even if you consider a rework an entirely new character, characters who should honestly just be deleted are instead allocated resources to make entirely new ones. Nobody remembers Gambler because that shit was D E L E T E D. But here, people spent money on those characters. There's -someone- out there who tossed money at Aatrox for a skin or two. You can't just delete someone's "investment". It's bad for business.
As easy as it would be, there are just too many factors for them to truly improve balancing right out of the gate. Although a good step would be letting Riot only balance around pro play.
MetalGearTeemu1 votesRiot already "Deletes" characters in this game. They do it by purposefully nerfing them onto the bench. They just leave them there so some idiot can buy skins for them in the hope that they might one day be something more then urgutted.
They could easily refund IP/RP for those skin purchases if a character was deleted for full rework. if the user is still active they'll move on to new skins, if they're inactive, they still have the users money.
That's not the problem tho, the problem is character homogenization has designed them into a corner, and it is fucking them. They're already trying to create the illusion of more roles with the inclusion of new buzzwords like "Diver". but the reality is that all their characters have such grotesque identity overlaps that they'll never get any kind of blanket fix in place at the speed they rework, nor will their paymasters in tencent tolerate a freeze on new champions to rebalance and rework the piles of old ones in desperate need for game health. The users already paid for those, why should they give a fuck?
Even the dumpster tier benchwarmers in Dota2 have a unique aspect that they are best at, allowing for greater diversity via pocket strategies. This simply doesn't exist in league, where 15-20 characters all cram into one "Role" which they are balanced around.
As long as riot aheres to this, they will never see the diversity they want in champion selection, and Dota2 will continue to be the CS:GO to their call of duty. Yeah, call of doody makes that dollar dollar chedda chedda, but no one respects it as a competitive game for good reason, except for its most devoted fans.
Atanchan1 votesI actually do respect CoD as a competitive game despite the fact that I shittalk it consistently, because even with how low the skill floor is you still have a lot of the same depth Counter-Strike has when the people playing it aren't just the random deathmatches of XBox Live.
Sure, Counter-Strike definitely beats it, but not to the point that it doesn't have value as a competitive game.
( mind, I'm saying this as someone who hasn't kept up with the most recent releases, and considering the publishers, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if all that's gone down the toilet )
Ipressbutton5 votesGhostcrawler
Dolasaur1 votesMmmm... I didn't get the feeling that damage creep was the reason they removed DFG, primarily because they replaced it with Luden's. I remember them saying that so few people correctly used DFG active that most DFG-buying champs actually saw win rate increases after it was removed. And then Luden's came 3 patches later with the same AP (admittedly no CDR), but a passive that's generally going to do way more damage in the long run than DFG's final active.
If you're specifically talking about burst damage creep, then I'll give it to you.
As an aside... I miss the early season 2 DFG... I loved getting 1000 AP on Veigar and doing 65% of a Mundo's 4k max health......
MetalGearTeemu1 votesDFGaren, never forget.
The Yetii Rider10 votesMeddler's official opinion on damage creep:
"My god, do you whiny kids even listen to yourselves? Not even two years ago you were bitching about unkillable tanks and now there's too much damage? Oh, I'm so sorry. I'll file that under 'Shit That's Not My Problem', right next to Magma Chamber and Ranked Dominion. You all must think this job is my entire life or something. Well, it's not. I'm a Roadhog main and I'm feeling very emotional right now so I will set up a full State of the Game post on why Jeff Kaplan is a loser in two weeks. Meddler out."
Horse Grenades4 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QqhcH8lK,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-01-23T06:16:20.956+0000)
Meddler's official opinion on damage creep:
"My god, do you whiny kids even listen to yourselves? Not even two years ago you were bitching about unkillable tanks and now there's too much damage? Oh, I'm so sorry. I'll file that under 'Shit That's Not My Problem', right next to Magma Chamber and Ranked Dominion. You all must think this job is my entire life or something. Well, it's not. I'm a Roadhog main and I'm feeling very emotional right now so I will set up a full State of the Game post on why Jeff Kaplan is a loser in two weeks. Meddler out."
This made me LOL
Tanks being tanky never bothered me. Tanks being tank, and 100-0 me solo under tower with1 rotation bothers me
Handy Sandy 6 votesDo you guys feel like damage is too much early and make winning fights just about who lands an ability first?
2 words Marksmen Draintanking.
Horse Grenades9 votes[{quoted}](name=Chroma Spell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QqhcH8lK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-22T16:57:40.512+0000)
2 words Marksmen Draintanking.
Sorry! I'm not familiar with second word. New to mobas
chipndip12 votesSo how do you have a basis to call out a damage creep on if you're new? Your foundation of understanding of this game doesn't have a past to creep from...
Horse Grenades11 votesSo how do you have a basis to call out a damage creep on if you're new? Your foundation of understanding of this game doesn't have a past to creep from...
I mean I started this game season 4. So I've seen damage creep in the game itself. So I have the last 3 years to base it on
WestwardZephyr11 votesDraintanking is essentially a different form of Tanking (soaking up a ton of damage) where instead of buying tank items, you just buy a lot of lifesteal. You have less health and defense, but compensate for that by stealing back whatever health you lose.
Horse Grenades11 votesDraintanking is essentially a different form of Tanking (soaking up a ton of damage) where instead of buying tank items, you just buy a lot of lifesteal. You have less health and defense, but compensate for that by stealing back whatever health you lose.
I am dumb. That makes sense. I probably could've gotten that if I thought about it. lol
Itsbeghdev3 votesOr you have constant healing from your kit, like Swain or Fiddlesticks.
Handy Sandy 17 votes[{quoted}](name=ApocaIypse Meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QqhcH8lK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-22T17:36:21.957+0000)
Sorry! I'm not familiar with second word. New to mobas
So Marksmen are supposed to be a squishy class that does some of the highest damage in the game. There are lifesteal items in the game, when they build those combined with attack speed and crit sometimes they heal way more than they should, and become like tanks because it seems like they have as much health as a tank but they're really just healing up all the damage they're taking.
They're healing more than 
and he's actually supposed to be a draintank.
My Waifu Vanilla8 votesI could care less about lifesteal items actually causing the "draintanking". The MAIN cause of drain tanking is when their Caitlyn or Vayne (when she was popular) was able to drain tank with 3 crit items and a doran's blade because they both got up to 20% lifesteal for FREE by taking Warlord's Bloodlust.
Healing as a whole being overwhelming is also caused by ignite sucking compared to Exhaust or Ghost (mfw Exhaust does more damage than Ignite) and there not being an item besides Mortal Reminder (which only your ADC will MAYBE buy) and Morellonomicon (which is not very good for Grievous Wounds because if a mage bursts you that low chances are you are dead soon anyway). I shouldn't have to harass my ADC to not by LDR and instead get Mortal Reminder when they have 2+ sources of healing, but they will never do that and instead go for "OMG DAHMAGE!" while Maokai, their ADC, Graves, and Soraka all heal for full value at all stages of the game and negate that 15% damage boost to tanks.
Ignite needs to be worth taking against healing OR supports, tanks, or fighters need an item to buy against healing (supports need build diversity anyway since you either get the "supports" building Rylais+Liandry's or you get the other 90% of champions that go bot lane that just go Redemption+Locket and make their entire team invincible by pressing 1 and 2).
SoryInAdvance1 votes"new to mobas" you've been playing for 3 years and finished plat, dont give me that crap. lol
Horse Grenades1 votes"new to mobas" you've been playing for 3 years and finished plat, dont give me that crap. lol
I mean. League was my first MOBA, other than that I'm a console noob :(
SoryInAdvance1 votesI started league around the same time and it was pretty much my first pc game besides the occasional minecraft, but i'd definitely not consider myself new. Not very good aparently because you managed to get to plat in the same amount of time and i've only ever played 1 promo series in 3 years (normals scrub ig).
Horse Grenades1 votesI started league around the same time and it was pretty much my first pc game besides the occasional minecraft, but i'd definitely not consider myself new. Not very good aparently because you managed to get to plat in the same amount of time and i've only ever played 1 promo series in 3 years (normals scrub ig).
I benefited from the Twitch and Jhin armor pen builds last season, and the Varus Duskblade builds and climbed off of it. My favorite champions happened to be really good. I am low gold in skill at best. :(
SoryInAdvance1 votesLol don't sell yourself short just because I never put in the time to play a lot of ranked or learn the game as thoroughly.
YumaS2Astral9 votes[{quoted}](name=Chroma Spell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QqhcH8lK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-22T16:57:40.512+0000)
2 words Marksmen Draintanking.
This. So much this.
It is the reason why assassins and burst mages need to have ridiculous damage. So that they can actually burst the ADC before he lifesteals everything back. If lifesteal wasn't as strong, it would be possible to tone down assassins and burst mages' damage.
Puttyblo4 votesThere really isn't a damage creep though.
https://youtu.be/ZQmxy_qp8jM?t=39s
That's Fiora using 1 ability 5 years ago.
Season 1
Shaco could do red buff, and then level 2 gank with red elixir + rally and you could two shot a squishy. Basically you deceive then auto and they were dead. Come late game you could instantly kill someone as AD Shaco with infinity edge.
Kogmaw with madreds blood razor was absolutely disgusting.
Garen could kill someone level 2 with E
Sion could run around two shotting anyone with Q + W.
AP Tristana could E + R for a kill from full health.
AP Gragas LOLOLOLOL
Diana/Zyra/Xin Zhao/Fizz/EVE at all stages aside from the period of her gutting just before rework.
This damage creep you speak of doesn't exist. Champs have been one shotting people since season 1. Most of you just don't know that and throw "damage creep" out there like the classic millennials who throw racist/sexist out at anything and everything they possibly can.
If you want to know what's actually wrong. It's that laners other than bot lane level up way too fast and it creates the illusion that there is a damage creep when in fact laners + junglers are just reaching further into their kit than they previously used to and now hit harder. But again, nothing has actually changed considering you could get way more ap + damage through items before than you can now.
For example: Rammus could have 600+ AD and two shot anyone not a tank. He can't do that anymore. Garen could run around with 400 ad and 5,000+ life with 200-300 of mr + armor. Can't do that anymore either.
So as far as I'm concerned there really isn't a damage creep.
Danjeng11 votesThat video shows a bot game. I can easily one shot a team of 5 bots using a Brand ultimate too.
PB4UAME2 votesYou are also trying to argue a comparative assessment (albeit not directly stated as such) that damage is getting higher and higher RELATIVE TO DEFENSES by stating that damage is currently lower than niche corner cases that were quickly removed from the game, Shaco/AP Trist one shotting in a minion wave; impossible/incorrect statement, Garen's E has never been able to kill someone at its first or second rank, (His current rank 5 E at level 18 is the strongest it has literally ever been, and even that won't one shot anyone of equal level unless he's fed, gets the full duration on them, and they are alone without virtually any armor or health) and Madreds was removed for being a noobtrap item. It kinda worked on Kog but only if you invested heavily in magic pen, and even then it was gold inefficient, it was not "absolute disgusting."
So um, great, uh, great counterargument, man. Top notch.
The problem is that you can get over 20% damage amp from masteries, and a free spell too, so sure there's less AP, and AD, but you can increase those by up to forty-eight-fucking-percent from dragons alone, then boost your total damage (after scaling, and including base) by another fucking twenty-five percent, double dipping the dragon boost too, and if you are an AD champion, particularly an ADC, you canhave a LDR, which actually triple dips the physical damage increase, and then throw some juicy crit and an IE at it, and you can scale that triple dipping, self compounding damage total, by up to another TWO-HUNDRED-AND-FIFTY MOTHERFUCKING PERCENT.(note, a champion with 100 AD after items, from the scalars alone, would crit for 532 damage instead of a 200 base crit, or a 250 crit with IE. If they have 200 AD, they're critting for 1064)
--If you truly want to discuss outliers, and niche cases of hyperdamage, find me one time in League's history where we could ever approach that^, let alone with Jhin who. . . Goddamn he fucks this up more than any other champion because he already can breach 500AD naturally.
Dengeden1 votesbut you can increase those by up to forty-eight-fucking-percent from dragons alone
And getting 3 infernals and elder totes happens every game.
It's so unjust that an enemy team that stands there like imbeciles as the enemy team takes objectives loses the game.
which actually triple dips the physical damage increase
Before it's reduced by defenses. And only against tanks, who want to absorb damage.
note, a champion with 100 AD after items, from the scalars alone, would crit for 532 damage instead of a 200 base crit, or a 250 crit with IE. If they have 200 AD, they're critting for 1064
a) that hasn't changed bc of S6. It's always been like that. b) Again, that's before defenses.
Goddamn he fucks this up more than any other champion because he already can breach 500AD naturally.
Draven. Also, AS is a thing. There's no difference between having 500 AD and and having 250 AD or 167 AD with double/tripe Jhin's AS.
Lesson learned: Never give evidence for damage creep, it's too easily refuted. Always passive aggressively complain about it without providing evidence.
PB4UAME2 votesnote, a champion with 100 AD after items, from the scalars alone, would crit for 532 damage instead of a 200 base crit, or a 250 crit with IE. If they have 200 AD, they're critting for 1064 a) that hasn't changed bc of S6. It's always been like that.
You don't know what you are talking about. Before season 6, masteries gave you 3% increased damage, at 21 points into offense. That's it. LDR didn't even exist, and neither did the elemental and elder dragons.
Seasons 1-5, that 100 AD would crit for 206 damage, and 258 with IE.
Draven. Also, AS is a thing. There's no difference between having 500 AD and and having 250 AD or 167 AD with double/tripe Jhin's AS.
Apparently you don't get how scalars work either. If you have a quantity that gets increased, say, 5.32 times, as the current scalars allow for physical damage, and you have another scalar with linear returns, which do you thing grows faster per unit point? It's AD, and quite noticeably so.
Also, 500 AD x 5.32 is 2,660, and that's before Jhin's crit bonuses, and potential 4th shot execute. That is way fucking more than anything any other champion can do; not even Viegar's ult hits you for that much.
Dengeden1 votesa) that hasn't changed bc of S6. It's always been like that.
You don't know what you are talking about. Before season 6, masteries gave you 3% increased damage, at 21 points into offense. That's it.
Rofl. Sure. Because the 20 other points you put into it didn't do anything.
LDR didn't even exist
LW existed. The objectively better item.
and neither did the elemental and elder dragons.
So what? The gold from dragons gave stats too.
Seasons 1-5, that 100 AD would crit for 206 damage, and 258 with IE.
And you had more AS, which made up for it. Also you're not taking masteries or for the 3rd and 3rd time defensive stats into account.
Apparently you don't get how scalars work either. If you have a quantity that gets increased, say, 5.23 times, as the current scalars allow for physical damage, and you have another scalar with linear returns, which do you thing grows faster per unit point? It's AD, almost exponentially so.
If Jhin didn't have his reload mechanic and all those shield and heal items didn't exist, I suppose that would be a legitimate point.
EDIT: And your math is all based on champions getting at least 4 items, which, as you people are always quick to point out, rarely happens because games close out quicker.
Puttyblo1 votesYou are also trying to argue a comparative assessment (albeit not directly stated as such) that damage is getting higher and higher RELATIVE TO DEFENSES by stating that damage is currently lower than niche corner cases that were quickly removed from the game, Shaco/AP Trist one shotting in a minion wave; impossible/incorrect statement, Garen's E has never been able to kill someone at its first or second rank, (His current rank 5 E at level 18 is the strongest it has literally ever been, and even that won't one shot anyone of equal level unless he's fed, gets the full duration on them, and they are alone without virtually any armor or health) and Madreds was removed for being a noobtrap item. It kinda worked on Kog but only if you invested heavily in magic pen, and even then it was gold inefficient, it was not "absolute disgusting."
So um, great, uh, great counterargument, man. Top notch.
The problem is that you can get over 20% damage amp from masteries, and a free spell too, so sure there's less AP, and AD, but you can increase those by up to forty-eight-fucking-percent from dragons alone, then boost your total damage (after scaling, and including base) by another fucking twenty-five percent, double dipping the dragon boost too, and if you are an AD champion, particularly an ADC, you canhave a LDR, which actually triple dips the physical damage increase, and then throw some juicy crit and an IE at it, and you can scale that triple dipping, self compounding damage total, by up to another TWO-HUNDRED-AND-FIFTY MOTHERFUCKING PERCENT.(note, a champion with 100 AD after items, from the scalars alone, would crit for 532 damage instead of a 200 base crit, or a 250 crit with IE. If they have 200 AD, they're critting for 1064)
--If you truly want to discuss outliers, and niche cases of hyperdamage, find me one time in League's history where we could ever approach that^, let alone with Jhin who. . . Goddamn he fucks this up more than any other champion because he already can breach 500AD naturally.
I could press R on Veigar with over 1,000 AP with 5 rods. [zombie-brand-clap]
As for your reference to Jhin. I've gotten triple red one time in the last two years. He's also a specially designed champion that requires a unique kit to fit the theme. Just about any other adc in the game will dish out more damage in the long term to a target.
Randuin also never reduced crit damage before. So, Randuins stops 15% of that damage, and in a realistic game the average person will have 1 red dragon at best, but even then I've only obtained/seen one red dragon in the last two and a half weeks.
Combine that with the reference of critting for 1,064 damage? Champs have been able to do that for a very long time now.
Quickly removed from the game? AP Trist was a thing all the way up to her rework. I didn't know 5 seasons was quickly. Interesting. I'll remember that as the average game dies in 4 months.
PB4UAME2 votesCombine that with the reference of critting for 1,064 damage? Champs have been able to do that for a very long time now.
Not with 200 AD they haven't been able to. And with such a set up, you could scale it way beyond 200, it was a simple way to impart the magnitude of the scaling.
Quickly removed from the game? AP Trist was a thing all the way up to her rework. I didn't know 5 seasons was quickly. Interesting. I'll remember that as the average game dies in 4 months.
AP Trist herself wasn't, her being able to cause a chain reaction of your own minions to die around you instantly killing you, or heavily injuring you for her R to then finish you, the part where she could oneshot people, that didn't last long.