I think I can help with these balance issues

Horse Grenades·Jul 12, 2018·68 votes·15,347 views

Increase tanks defensive stats Decrease tank damage Buff towers either offense or defense

There needs to be a reason to choose tanks without having tanks do insane damage.

114 Comments

RekSai CoffeeCoJul 12, 201822 votes

Also revert scuttle changes and adjust the camp experience so tanks have a reason to jungle again over all the duelists atm and a handful of early game junglers, most of the tanks per say are late game champs which can't really hit peak in this meta.

ValiantKillerJul 12, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=RekSai CoffeeCo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMAAU5lU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-12T14:35:59.379+0000)

Also revert scuttle changes and adjust the camp experience so tanks have a reason to jungle again over all the duelists atm and a handful of early game junglers, most of the tanks per say are late game champs which can't really hit peak in this meta.

And that would break the damn meta of jungle begging for mid mercy and help all game so they can scale. good mid = good jungle , bad mid = jungler screwed over.

NaymlissJul 12, 20181 votes

Ls and other pros say it's not good to sacrifice your lane state to help with scuttle. If you're a champion who is looking to shove and roam already, fine they should help you. However, if they have the lane frozen in a good spot, roaming could compromise the matchup completely.

ValiantKillerJul 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ls and other pros say it's not good to sacrifice your lane state to help with scuttle. If you're a champion who is looking to shove and roam already, fine they should help you. However, if they have the lane frozen in a good spot, roaming could compromise the matchup completely.

Well it the facts in solo queue, you said lcs and pros i talking about solo queue where things is all messy and one mistake cost your jungler the game.

NaymlissJul 13, 20181 votes

They were referring to solo queue when they said this.

The thing is if you sacrifice your lanestate in certain matchups, it can cost your team the game. Your jungler losing a camp pails on comparison to the negative effects sacrificing your lanestate can have.

ValiantKillerJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They were referring to solo queue when they said this.

The thing is if you sacrifice your lanestate in certain matchups, it can cost your team the game. Your jungler losing a camp pails on comparison to the negative effects sacrificing your lanestate can have.

Wish it easy to say it just a camp or scuttle but it matter in levels and jungler with head of exp will gank easier and get easier lead.

NaymlissJul 13, 20181 votes

Sure, it obviously sucks to be behind as a jungler. However, a jungler who is ahead can easily be played around. You know where he's going to be on the map at any given point in time, and you can play around that. If say a fizz gets a lane advantage because you sacrificed your lanestate and roamed to help get scuttle, he can now force plays whenever he wants, allowing him to snowball his jungler and laners. In fact, he can easily make up for the 1 camp deficit that missing scuttle caused by creating pressure and forcing the enemy jungler out of his jungle.

ValiantKillerJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sure, it obviously sucks to be behind as a jungler. However, a jungler who is ahead can easily be played around. You know where he's going to be on the map at any given point in time, and you can play around that. If say a fizz gets a lane advantage because you sacrificed your lanestate and roamed to help get scuttle, he can now force plays whenever he wants, allowing him to snowball his jungler and laners. In fact, he can easily make up for the 1 camp deficit that missing scuttle caused by creating pressure and forcing the enemy jungler out of his jungle.

Again all of that is cute and lovely to hear, but when it to come to facts mostly the people who leave their jungle to die for scuttle mostly the type of mid laners that die to ganks , lose lane and can't play their role right :)

Lets have shrexJul 12, 201813 votes

Nah this game balance has turned into "more damage" or "less damage" rofl

Horse GrenadesJul 12, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lets have shrex,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMAAU5lU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-12T13:53:48.791+0000)

Nah this game balance has turned into "more damage" or "less damage" rofl

Increasing defensive stats would go a long way in correcting this

Nea104Jul 12, 20184 votes

They even buffed True Damage in any way, just to be sure that no tank could be a tank anymore :P

AmazoXJul 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They even buffed True Damage in any way, just to be sure that no tank could be a tank anymore :P

They lowered damage to add true damage, meaning Health is more effective than before.

Nea104Jul 13, 20181 votes

They didn't lower damage, sadly :D Just added more and more, with Conqueror, buffs to champions and so...

Results: more damage overall, and True damage out-of-control, so that (actual) tanks are useless :D

AmazoXJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They didn't lower damage, sadly :D Just added more and more, with Conqueror, buffs to champions and so...

Results: more damage overall, and True damage out-of-control, so that (actual) tanks are useless :D

Uhm did you read the changes? Infinity Edge's 50% bonus CRITICAL DAMAGE was removed.

It helped making ADCS STOP BPS 15-17 minutes into the Match.

Nea104Jul 13, 20181 votes

That was a single item :D Along with couple of other items, ok.

Still, they buffed EVERY damage source in the game, and even if ADCs scale more slowly, assassins/bruisers and so on don't :D It's League of One Shots, overall damage is totally crazy, and True Damage makes just everything worse.

Plus, patch 8.14 is gonna add even MORE damage :P They are pushing this disgusting thing over and over.

AR URFJul 13, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=ApocaIypse Meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMAAU5lU,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-07-12T14:28:05.462+0000)

Increasing defensive stats would go a long way in correcting this

First they have to acknowledge that true damage is unhealthy for the game.

AmazoXJul 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMAAU5lU,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-13T02:06:46.178+0000)

First they have to acknowledge that true damage is unhealthy for the game.

Not on Darius, Gatenby & Urgot, Cho'Gath ultimates or on Yi's Wuju Style, Ahri's Orb, however on anything else, agreed.

AR URFJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not on Darius, Gatenby & Urgot, Cho'Gath ultimates or on Yi's Wuju Style, Ahri's Orb, however on anything else, agreed.

I can agree to disagree. Yi's wuju style combined with item 3124 and than slap on item 1419 and item 3153 is quite unhealthy. Darius has to build up to use his ult effectively which is fine.

Get Ogre HereJul 12, 20187 votes

I think Ornn is a very good example of a good tank design. Unfortunate he's not allowed to be viable or he's busted in pro play...

He has several small CC's, as well as a larger CC on his ult. He takes skill to play (or at least a lot more than other tanks) because he has a bit of an all or nothing playstyle. His ult is extremely good if you land it, but useless if you miss it or use it at a bad time. Also in fights he has to position his Q right and E it at the right time so he doesn't get blown up and he gets a good knock up.

He's a tank that's fun to play and isn't aids to play against. In my opinion he's the best tank in the game by FAR.

Just a shame they took away the unstoppable on his W. That was another great form of skill expression that I feel they should have kept, and just nerfed him elsewhere.

Automated RivenJul 12, 20185 votes

And he deals a metric ton of damage. So no. Poor design. They should remove a bunch of damage and give him more resists or buff his cc's a bit.

Get Ogre HereJul 12, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMAAU5lU,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-07-12T20:03:25.804+0000)

And he deals a metric ton of damage. So no. Poor design. They should remove a bunch of damage and give him more resists or buff his cc's a bit.

The numbers have nothing to do with a champ's design. A design is the abilities themselves. Like even if Fizz's numbers were halved, his kit is cancer regardless. But assuming they switched some numbers around Ornn could be a very well-balanced tank.

Automated RivenJul 12, 20182 votes

I would argue that percent max HP damage is a design issue rather then a numbers issue. It's either oppressive or useless. So I still think it's poor design. His kit is fine but the percent max hp damage should go.

TheSingularityJul 12, 20181 votes

They gave him that due to how unreliable half his kit is. His Q is slow and has a relatively short range. Where his E is easy to stuff up if your team fighting in the jungle as if your model so much as clips a wall you'll come to a screeching halt.

It also provides an anti tank, tank

Automated RivenJul 12, 20183 votes

In fact most tanks have percent max HP damage and that's why they are damn near impossible to balance.

Moakai has it on his saplings.

Sej on her passive if she stubs someone. (stupidly high btw at 20%)

Ornn for some god forsaken reason has it on both his w or e (can't remember which is bellowing breath and his passive which can be applied to multiple champions and multiple times.

Sion has it on his shield and on his passive

Gragas on w

Mumu has it in his w (which he can convert a portion to true damage)

Poppy on her Q

Basically any toplane or jungle tank that isn't naut. Has percent true damage. That's why when they are good they get extremely overbearing and do way too much damage.

TheSingularityJul 12, 20182 votes

Also Zac and Gnar

Ornn bellowing breath simply gives him the opportunity to deal %HP dmg. He can either E, displace with Q or a member of his team can CC an enemy to proc it.

As a tank main, I slightly disagree with Gragas as he's more like a diver/AP bruiser combo (he has as much hard CC as ). Yes riot classifies him as a tank. But he just deals too much damage for me to consider him a tank and is way to beefy with too few items (he seems fatter than most standard tanks who buy tank items when building 2-3 dmg items then tank). He ends up with more flat HP without items than over half the tank roster, and more armor than about 5 of them. While dealing more damage and having his W The biggest reason is his W defense steroid. It's obscenely strong compared to the defensive steroids used by other tanks.

Get Ogre HereJul 12, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMAAU5lU,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-12T21:42:18.308+0000)

I would argue that percent max HP damage is a design issue rather then a numbers issue. It's either oppressive or useless. So I still think it's poor design. His kit is fine but the percent max hp damage should go.

Honestly completely agree. Fuck % HP damage on tanks. Or anyone for that matter :p

GayFluffyUnicornJul 13, 20182 votes

He's absolute aids to play against but you probably don't play toplane where even darius loses the 1v1.

UnknownTerritoryJul 12, 20183 votes

I agree. Tower feels like papers and on the other hand you have Tanks that deal ton of damage instead of soaking damage.

PaffWasTakenJul 13, 20183 votes

Or just simply nerf every single source of champion damage in the game while buffing towers.

-Longer games -Tanks being able to tank -Burst meta gone -No more tower dives without consequences -Assassin mains crying

Everyone is happy!

Pika FoxJul 12, 20181 votes

Tanks already have reason to be picked... Control. And tanks will always need to deal damage, else theyll just be ignored.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Jul 12, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMAAU5lU,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-07-12T19:16:09.047+0000)

Tanks already have reason to be picked... Control. And tanks will always need to deal damage, else theyll just be ignored.

Tanks are all loaded with cc you cant ignore them or their team will 1 shot you while youre stunned. Tanks shouldn't do damage by just building defensive items.

Pika FoxJul 12, 20182 votes

Theyre loaded with CC, sure, but if they do no damage then theyre ignorable. Doesnt matter how much CC you have when youre rotation is on CD.

Automated RivenJul 12, 20182 votes

Shorter cooldown. Longer cc. Both of those would result in tanks being less ignorable.

Pika FoxJul 12, 20182 votes

No, youll still be ignoreable. You dont do damage, so why would i ever kill you? You take longer to kill, and that other guy doing the damage is the only threat to me. Kill him, and you can CC me all day but youre still worthless.

Automated RivenJul 13, 20182 votes

You right. I, as an adc or mage want to be cc locked while I get burst by the tanks team. (Which is what would happen if you tried to simply ignore them) Assuming apropriate battle lines you can't reach the DPS until you get through the tanks.

Pika FoxJul 13, 20182 votes

If tanks did no damage, youd have no reason to care about killing them. Its not like theyre going to die before CCing you, youre always better off ignoring the tank in that scenario. Theyre literally not a threat.

LegitBusinessmanJul 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMAAU5lU,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-13T13:32:51.087+0000)

If tanks did no damage, youd have no reason to care about killing them. Its not like theyre going to die before CCing you, youre always better off ignoring the tank in that scenario. Theyre literally not a threat.

Theyre not meant to be a 'threat' theyre there to CC, disrupt, and make it difficult for your team to do stuff. Theyre supposed to set up the threats on their own team. And if you play any immobile high damage champion nothings makes you piss yourself like a maokai walking straight at you.

Pika FoxJul 15, 20181 votes

Then theyre worthless, unpickable, unviable, and easily ignoreable.

And if im a highly mobile squishy and i see a 0 damage maokai walking at me, im going to laugh, ignore his CC with a QSS for his R, then proceed to kill his team. Doesnt matter what he tries to do, hes utterly worthless to his team because i have no reason to even fear him.

LegitBusinessmanJul 16, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aMAAU5lU,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-15T15:04:00.678+0000)

Then theyre worthless, unpickable, unviable, and easily ignoreable.

And if im a highly mobile squishy and i see a 0 damage maokai walking at me, im going to laugh, ignore his CC with a QSS for his R, then proceed to kill his team. Doesnt matter what he tries to do, hes utterly worthless to his team because i have no reason to even fear him.

Uh... are you serious?

If a maokai pops righteous glory and runs at you he and his people are going to absolute shove your butt in.

The point is that he sets up a kill, removes your ability to outplay since you're locked down, and doesn't die in the process.

But please enlighten me on this world where a maokai root, knockup, a lane wide root that hits multiple people is ignoreable. Or Nautilus, or any chain cc tank.

Keep in mind that Maokai was a top tier pick for years in professional play, and it wasn't because he did damage, it was his ability to keep a priority target in place long enough for him to die twice over.

FineB8M8Jul 13, 20181 votes

Sick and tired of laning against a Dr Mundo. Doing well and then late game he can't be killed and 1v5's the team

Ariel the CruelJul 13, 20181 votes

Stop making the support buy item 3123 !

(This is a generalized response.)

PrinceOfStormsJul 13, 20182 votes

Just delete item 3123 (but leave item 3033 ). It's only fair considering that AP champions have to build all the way to item 3165 to get GW, whereas AD champions can just spend 800g to get and have easy access to it.

Horse GrenadesJul 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Just delete (but leave ). It's only fair considering that AP champions have to build all the way to to get GW, whereas AD champions can just spend 800g to get and have easy access to it.

I think giving mages access to an earl component of Morelos that costs 800 that applies GW or only having GE on completed morta reminder makes sense

PrinceOfStormsJul 13, 20182 votes

That just forces champions who sustain to bend over and take it up the ass (against mages as well as ADs). You shouldn't be able to counterbuild any champion with 800g.

LordGeovanniJul 14, 20181 votes

I agree the worst thing they did for tanks and bruisers was make item 3075 an healing cut item isntead of refineing its damage reduction aspect not removing it armor but still giving it the hp and putting the healing cut on another item. I dont care for item 3076 considering that as a fighter main Thornmail was often my first defensive item that i cant buy anymore because they removed the 15% damage reflect and gave it shitty base and even shittier armor scaling that has it worse for tanks who stack armor even if they had armor buffs in kit. But top lane mains being the passive work around the meta guys they are dont come out in force to complain about it like adc and mage babies do.

Ariel the CruelJul 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=unc8Ovye,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-10T02:17:04.643+0000)

I disagree GW is OP. It's the primary factor keeping champions like Vlad, Mundo, and Soraka in check. I do agree it's too easy to obtain.

Riot has 2 problem when it come to grievous wounds.

Without GW, you have no effective way to deal with sustain heavy champs.

With GW, you have to balance those champs around the assumption that the opponent will always buy GW.

Personal approach (had I the power): Make GW situational. What this means is, reduce passive application and make it something that both parties have to play around. This lets people have a response to sustain, while not mandating that Sustain be viable through the response. Good examples of GW implementation under this concept: Varus E, MF ult, Kat's ult, Ignite. Bad examples are Executioner's, and bramble vest. Of course, GW shouldn't be a champion specific counter. So examples of how the items could be replaced for general use. . . Bramble Vest: Half effect VS melee champions. Bramble is meant as a response to ADC lifesteal. It does it's job reasonably well for that. This change is just meant to ease the burden a bit on people that actually have to close the gap. Thornmail: Deals double damage to shields. The goal of thorn mail to to make tanks not a walking med-kit for the enemy ADC. The damage is already negligible and shields aren't meant to be an ADC tool anyway. Executioner's Calling: I love this item. Probably because it's a staple buy on Janna (for some reason). But remove and replace it with below. Executioner's hood: Support item. +health. Passive: Deal 5-15 bonus damage on-hit, doubled against non-champions. Active: Create a <Varus E> for 5 seconds that inflict Grevious Wounds on enemies that touch it for 2 seconds; 100 second CD. Morellonomicon: Reshuffle the stats to make this not a rush item. I like the idea of Morello being used to secure kills, and not a general counter. That said, making it a rush item for every mage in the game seems a tad unfair when the goal is to make GW a situational effect. All the sustain heavy problem champions: Nerfed sustain. You had to see this coming. With GW becoming a lot harder to apply, Riot doesn't need to balance these champion in the assumption that it will always be in play. This should make dealing with them feel a bit more fair for everyone else.

Bring on the down-votes.

PrinceOfStormsJul 13, 20181 votes

Honestly I really like these, except you could buff thornmail instead by having it reflect 15% of all incoming AA damage pre-mitigation, which would accomplish the same thing.

Ariel the CruelJul 13, 20181 votes

Buffing Thornmail's reflect runs the risk of re-creating the arms race that got it nerfed in the first place. Where right-clickers were forced to out-lifesteal thornmail's reflection or suicide on it.

PrinceOfStormsJul 13, 20181 votes

Or you just buff thornmail's reflect and don't buff lifesteal so that marksmen suicide against it.

Ariel the CruelJul 14, 20181 votes