Riot, if you’re dead set on adding True Damage. Listen to your player base.

Horse Grenades·May 7, 2018·71 votes·17,274 views

Add it to tower shots! Make dives a skill again and not just having the adc tank the tower and live because of triumph and Janna

Edit: Need to clarify, it's hard for me to make a well thought out post because I was on my phone and I'm fat. I hit like 33 buttons at once.

I understand that True Damage may not stop early game dives, or add skill-expression into the, I remember a time when 2nd tier towers gave sheilds, and tower dives required actually juggling tower aggro. Maybe adding GW or Lethality or %hp dmg. Towers are weaker than ever and champions do more damage than ever.

82 Comments

Pika FoxMay 7, 201871 votes

Lets be honest, if you listened to the playerbase youd be playing a brand new game every hour with wildly sweeping buffs and nerfs as everyone complains about the next new balanced fotm.

Players are good at signaling when theres a problem. Players are absolutely garbage at telling you what the problem is.

InTheoryMay 7, 20189 votes

Players are good at signaling when theres a problem. Players are absolutely garbage at telling you what the problem is.

That's actually the best describtion I've seen so far. Need to keep that in mind and copy paste the next time someone claims to know how to solve problems.

TormentulaMay 7, 201825 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-07T15:44:07.444+0000)

Players are good at signaling when theres a problem. Players are absolutely garbage at telling you what the problem is.

plus how to fix it.

Granted riot hasn't hit the mark either in that regard but the boards are probably not the best at giving suggestions.

ZT XperimentorMay 7, 20187 votes

Like redit is? They're more sheep than anything.

TormentulaMay 7, 20186 votes

You're more likely to see a high elo or proplayer post on the reddit to Shepard the sheep occasionally. Especially on big topic threads.

But ya, reddit can shitpost sometimes too.

(trick2g was the only high elo post I've seen in the past couple of years on boards.)

SasogwaMay 7, 20185 votes

{quoted}

You're more likely to see a high elo or proplayer post on the reddit to Shepard the sheep occasionally. Especially on big topic threads.

But ya, reddit can shitpost sometimes too.

(trick2g was the only high elo post I've seen in the past couple of years on boards.)

Trick2g is lower elo than a bunch of boards user. High elo == well known

5000000000000000May 8, 20182 votes

Isn't he like diamond?

Death by GlamourMay 7, 201812 votes

Its even more of an echo chamber there than on these boards

EROTIC RAID BOSSMay 7, 20186 votes

No it isn't lol

SaltyToplaneGoatMay 7, 20184 votes

It is - not even the League board in specfic, it is the very way how this website is set up that enables certain social mechanisms to show when a sub-reddit reaches a certain size.

I mean, that was their whole point: if you have a network you want people to actually stay on your network - and the best way to do that is to make sure they get to read what they agree with anyways. Add corporate astroturfing, a certain moderation-style, and a sense of elitism of "long-time sheep" to the mix, and voilá, you got a network that immedeatly crushes all new impulses if they could even remotely be seen as negative.

Reddit is the best when it's for small niche fandoms, in the low size it's more like a confortable saloon for fellows who like the same thing, and not a gigantic, potentially corporate-controlled, echo-chamber.

Death by GlamourMay 7, 20186 votes

And this is exclusive to the players?

The balance team are just as guilty

MordepoolMay 7, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-07T15:44:07.444+0000)

Lets be honest, if you listened to the playerbase youd be playing a brand new game every hour with wildly sweeping buffs and nerfs as everyone complains about the next new balanced fotm.

Players are good at signaling when theres a problem. Players are absolutely garbage at telling you what the problem is.

Really!!!? Players say Marksmen are OP for 2 years and the Dirt cheap zeal items need a Solid price increase. For 2 years.

Riot:. Marksmen have been Too powerful for a while. Zeal item price increases.

WTF where you Saying again!!!??

Pika FoxMay 7, 20187 votes

ADCs havnt been op for 2 years, and still arent. The issue isnt zeal items or this or that, the issue is more nuanced.

New runes changed up build paths etc. Most ADC keystones got nerfed to the point fleet footwork was the only viable rune, and gold gen was increased to help supports and overall speed up the game. This meant lifesteal wasnt needed and late game ADCs got strong enough fast enough that early ADCs were no longer viable.

The changes do nothing to "nerf adcs". They change the power curve so that late game ADCs take longer for their damage and they get more damage to tanks when they do, and theres new builds that spike just as hard, if not harder for early game ADCs with the new ER and stormrazor for their builds, but fall off more at 3-4 items.

MordepoolMay 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2018-05-07T18:41:59.459+0000)

ADCs havnt been op for 2 years, and still arent. The issue isnt zeal items or this or that, the issue is more nuanced.

You know I wrote up a long rebuttal but it doesn't matter to you since your a Biased ADC main.

If you don't think ADC were OP your delusional Btw

Pika FoxMay 8, 20182 votes

Why would i main ADC? ADCs are all feeders who just int all day. Us supports do all the real work.

Funny how you seem to have not bothered reading any of the correct statements after the first sentence though.

CeazaruMay 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2018-05-07T18:41:59.459+0000)

ADCs havnt been op for 2 years, and still arent. The issue isnt zeal items or this or that, the issue is more nuanced.

New runes changed up build paths etc. Most ADC keystones got nerfed to the point fleet footwork was the only viable rune, and gold gen was increased to help supports and overall speed up the game. This meant lifesteal wasnt needed and late game ADCs got strong enough fast enough that early ADCs were no longer viable.

The changes do nothing to "nerf adcs". They change the power curve so that late game ADCs take longer for their damage and they get more damage to tanks when they do, and theres new builds that spike just as hard, if not harder for early game ADCs with the new ER and stormrazor for their builds, but fall off more at 3-4 items.

"ADCs havnt been op for 2 years, and still arent. The issue isnt zeal items or this or that, the issue is more nuanced." Now watch Caitlyn Vayne Draven Tristana Ezreal etc two any squishy with two items and shred a tank in 1 to 3 secs and not even be threatened because god like sustain and Enchanter support shields.

Pika FoxMay 8, 20182 votes

I main Leona. A support tank. If youre a tank and youre dying in 2-3 seconds, stop 1v5ing the entire enemy team, because the ADC physically cant kill you that fast.

CeazaruMay 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=00010002000000010000,timestamp=2018-05-08T01:08:18.867+0000)

I main Leona. A support tank. If youre a tank and youre dying in 2-3 seconds, stop 1v5ing the entire enemy team, because the ADC physically cant kill you that fast.

"stop 1v5ing" Thing is i'm a juggernaut main I play champs like Darius Garen Yorick and you're supposed to build as an off-tank with 1 damge item. Almost every game come mid game when i leave and start looking to get into skirmishes and team fights i have item 3071 or item 3078 with item 3742 and item 3047 and i buy item 3065 as my 4th item in case they have ap. The thing is as an off tank you are supposed to engage or help with engaging but all that happens is I get cc'ed while engaging for my team and get melted in 2-3 seconds.

Pika FoxMay 8, 20181 votes

You have ass loads of HP but not enough resistance to back up said HP, not to mention 2 big offensive items, one of which being the most expensive item in the game. Of course youre going to get CCd and gunned down, either you get a successful flank with that build and pressure someone out of position, or you die. Thats not a good teamfight build for general fighting.

CeazaruMay 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=0001000200000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-08T23:13:50.946+0000)

You have ass loads of HP but not enough resistance to back up said HP, not to mention 2 big offensive items, one of which being the most expensive item in the game. Of course youre going to get CCd and gunned down, either you get a successful flank with that build and pressure someone out of position, or you die. Thats not a good teamfight build for general fighting.

I never build 2 damage items. I said that I build item 3071 or item 3078 depending on who I play if I play Garen or Darius I build and then full tank, if I play Yorick I go and then full tank and you mentioned one of the biggest problems with juggernauts right now,gold efficiency. The Juggernaut build path is one of the most expensive in the game so when mid game hits i'm basically behind everyone else in terms of build because it takes me longer to get the gold I need. So while playing Darius/Garen I only have item 3071 item 3742 item 3047 come mid game and while playing Yorick I only have item 3078 and Yorick is a split pushing champ so he's not good in big team fights anyway.

Pika FoxMay 9, 20181 votes

Then you cant really complain or be surprised when you die relatively fast, as you have rather low effective HP against both specific damage types.

CeazaruMay 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=000100020000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-09T13:23:23.811+0000)

Then you cant really complain or be surprised when you die relatively fast, as you have rather low effective HP against both specific damage types.

I have every reason to complain because games these days are over so fast that the champs I play don't even get the chance to be effective. By the time laning phase is over and mid game hits which around 5-10 min in the game adc's are already at late game status with 2 items.

Pika FoxMay 11, 20181 votes

Late game status and 2 items is a massive hyperbole
Jug/Bruisers tend to be early game champions who spike at 1 item or are lane bullies. You already have the chance to be effective.

CeazaruMay 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=00010002000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-11T00:49:08.820+0000)

Late game status and 2 items is a massive hyperbole

Jug/Bruisers tend to be early game champions who spike at 1 item or are lane bullies. You already have the chance to be effective.

The chance to be effective as in try to snowball your lane or be irrelevant come mid game lol such a chance that I have to go 5-0 in lane to even have a chance in team fights. Such a great meta not. Go and keep defending your Caitlyn 2 shotting everything she can right click on.

Pika FoxMay 11, 20181 votes

Caitlyn wont be 2 shotting you unless you build like literal garbage. Even then its not realistic.

Or you could just last hit minions. You know, those things that give the most gold?

CeazaruMay 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=0001000200000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-11T14:51:49.541+0000)

Caitlyn wont be 2 shotting you unless you build like literal garbage. Even then its not realistic.

Or you could just last hit minions. You know, those things that give the most gold?

I already told you no matter how good I do in top I am essentially irrelevant. You can try to bring up CS but your point is moot because adc’s have one the cheapest build paths in the game. 2600 Cost on zeal items lul. It takes me longer than any adc to build even my 1st item I may even get black cleaver or trinity force by the time mid game starts. Even if I snowball in my lane I’m irrelevant because if my bot lane feeds then I auto lose. You’re just another ignorant support main I dear you to play top lane for a good amount of games. You would literally be crying. You have to deal with getting ganked by a full health jg at lvl 3. Good luck trying to have your early game influence you mentioned because you’ll just get ganked because junglers and perma gank right now. Then when you go to start team fighting you just are useless and can die to your opposing bot no matter how snowballed you are.

Pika FoxMay 11, 20181 votes

Zeal items are cheap because theyre one of the least gold efficient item buys for a final item in the game, as crit is a very minor boost in dps until you get IE, 1 zeal item complete and one zeal.

CeazaruMay 9, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=0001000200000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-08T23:13:50.946+0000)

You have ass loads of HP but not enough resistance to back up said HP, not to mention 2 big offensive items, one of which being the most expensive item in the game. Of course youre going to get CCd and gunned down, either you get a successful flank with that build and pressure someone out of position, or you die. Thats not a good teamfight build for general fighting.

I forgot to say this in my last reply to you but the fact that i build loads hp is the reality of playing juggernauts their resistance items item 3742 item 3065 item 3053 are not on par with tank items and mostly enable them to stack health and have a decent amount of sustain.

RaiyzaMay 7, 20186 votes

Random player here.

Item damage is too high and towers are fucking shit.

Nailed it.

Pika FoxMay 7, 20182 votes

Defense items have always and still are better per gold than damage items, and towers have always sucked.

RaiyzaMay 7, 20185 votes

I wasn't talking about gold efficiency. At all.

That doesn't really matter anyway. My point is that damage from items are way too high, and now they want to add more true damage.

Awesome.

Pika FoxMay 7, 20181 votes

Damage hasnt been too high and that literally wasnt the issue, which is what these changes reflect.

RaiyzaMay 7, 20185 votes

No.

These changes reflect that Riot wants shorter games and higher rewards for snowballing. The higher the damage, the less of a chance for comebacks. Damage has been ridiculous the last two seasons. Have you any idea what item 3147 is? It FINALLY got nerfed.

EDIT: The one good thing they did was fixed Baron. Now it doesn't die in 10 seconds. Yay.

Pika FoxMay 8, 20182 votes

Duskblade didnt get nerfed because damage was too high, it got nerfed so that the champions that used it could be buffed so they wouldnt be reliant on getting the gold for it to be relevant in the game.

RaiyzaMay 8, 20182 votes

No offense man, but you have to be deluded to believe that. The damage was nerfed. Hard.

NIGHTSTALKER DAMAGE (MELEE) 65-320 (at levels 1-18) ⇒ 30-200 (at levels 1-18)

Hard. They even said that champions that bought it were too overbearing because of the damage it gives.

Pika FoxMay 8, 20182 votes

And everyone who used it was buffed, and had their winrate go up post nerfs.

RaiyzaMay 8, 20181 votes

And I was fine with that. Kong is seeing more play while still not broken. Kha is somewhat problematic, but he can be dealt with.

Pika FoxMay 8, 20182 votes

Which defeats your argument that it was nerfed because damage was too high... It was nerfed because it itself was too big a power spike making the champions overall weaker to compensate, meaning they were too weak until they got it. Power ended up being the same post nerf, if not higher.

RaiyzaMay 8, 20182 votes

No, it doesn't. Re-read my post.

I said damage from ITEMS was too high. Duskblade gave too much damage, so it got nerfed. That was my point.

Pika FoxMay 8, 20182 votes

Damage from items in general are fine though. Duskblade is an edge case example. The only reason crit items are "too strong" is because ADCs have only one viable rune after rune nerfs and the alternate adc build paths have all been nerfed (cleaver, penetration etc), and buffed passive gold gen, leaving late game crit builds the only viable adc option with their counters being completely unviable, which is why adcs are getting new items and runes to help support burst/caster adcs.

RaiyzaMay 8, 20181 votes

So you do agree that Duskblade was too strong.

Also no, the reason crit items are "too strong" is because the stats they provide are too high for the cost. That's why Riot is increasing the price on Zeal items and lowering the price on raw damage items like Bloodthirster.

ADCs do not only have one viable rune path. Fleet footwork is strong. Electrocute is strong. Conquerer is strong. Press the Attack is strong. It all depends on the champion chosen and playstyle. Even Jhin players run comet.

In my honest opinion, BT and IE prices should not go down. But we'll see how that plays out.

Pika FoxMay 8, 20181 votes

Fleet footwork is the only viable rune. And crit items werent too cheap; the zeal items gave garbage stats and effects for the cost, and required multiple items before their efficiency came into effect (crit sucks until IE+1.5 items and is a loss of DPS compared to other items)

Lifesteal became irrelevant because pta/electrocute users became useless after the nerfs to their runes/items and fleet was the only viable option left, and the passive gold gen increase coupled with all of this reinforced late game crit builds to be the only viable option.

This isnt crit adcs being op, or crit items being op, this is what halpens when you nerf all other adc playstyles over the years so theres only 1 viable adc build (other than rageblade users, which is only like 2 adcs.)

PB4UAMEMay 7, 20188 votes

You're still repeating this bullshit?

I'm genuinely curious what leads you to believe the opposite of what every analyst, and even RIOT themselves have claimed and mathematically proved for years.

Surely if you're repeating this "fact" in so many threads you have some evidence or data to support your conjecture?

Snowman ArcMay 8, 20181 votes

Players are not even good at signaling if there's a problem. They are correct only at like 70% of the things they complain about.

Pika FoxMay 8, 20181 votes

No, theyre good at signaling an issue. The issue doesnt need to be remotely related to anything anyone is talking about, its just if a lot of people are saying something is off, then theres some reason theyre all saying that, even if its just percieved issues from lack of clarity.

DragonSheaMay 9, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOIc9q4J,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-07T15:44:07.444+0000)

Lets be honest, if you listened to the playerbase youd be playing a brand new game every hour with wildly sweeping buffs and nerfs as everyone complains about the next new balanced fotm.

Players are good at signaling when theres a problem. Players are absolutely garbage at telling you what the problem is.

Oh man that is so true. And it's sad when the players that DO explain what the problem is are not heard.

Sire HippingtonMay 7, 201811 votes

Just that adding truedamage for towers has little impact vs the adc diveing and tanking, but fucks over rammus diveing and taky which is his damn job. Adding broad truedamage to the game is a bad idea, neither IE nor towers should have that.

SoryInAdvanceMay 7, 20183 votes

Yeah tower shots are already really close to true damage on ADC's. This idea doesn't hinder their diving at all.

AirKingNeoMay 7, 20182 votes

that's kinda the point

no need for the LCS games where Naut tanks over 23 turret shots and not giving a shit.

Arsenic SulfurMay 7, 20184 votes

In that situation if Nautilus died then the towers would need severe nerfs.

Nautilus had a tank build, used W on cooldown, was getting healed/shield by Nami/Janna(Don't remember which), had a locket shield, IIRC a redemption heal as this was during that meta, AND the enemies weren't focusing solely on him. This happening was a display of good teamwork, not bullshit. I could've done the same thing in season 3 if I had a Nami and Janna backing me up.