I'm not saying I am for or against MMR, but I would just like to know why I am for or against. thanks!
Edit: What I mean is that why not MMR just determine how much LP you get per win not WHO you play. For example, if im Silver 2 I play Silver 2s, if my MMR is high I just get more LP.
Edit 2: Or return to the old ELO system. I was not a round in those days
Gregor Gysi12 votesRather: explain why open MMR/Elo < Division/promotion system.
Quepha11 votesThey wrote their MMR system as a way to try and evaluate player skill and match players of appropriate skill.
They wrote the league/division system to try and create a system of challenges and achievements that would be fun for players each season.
It's like you're asking why Riot doesn't use their screwdriver on a nail when they already made a hammer. They're different systems with different goals.
JuhnChan46 votesSo players who are theoretically stuck in Bronze I with Plat III MMR would constantly be matched against other Plat players (thus creating an even game and causing that player's win rate to hover around 50%) but only get rewarded for being Bronze I.
Sounds completely shitty to me.
Horse Grenades11 votesSo players who are theoretically stuck in Bronze I with Plat III MMR would constantly be matched against other Plat players (thus creating an even game and causing that player's win rate to hover around 50%) but only get rewarded for being Bronze I.
Sounds completely shitty to me.
I agreem that's why I think MMR should just determine LP gain, not opponents
Quepha4 votes[{quoted}](name=ApocaIypse Meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a3ri93h4,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-03-20T17:17:23.396+0000)
I agreem that's why I think MMR should just determine LP gain, not opponents
So you want matches to be less even and more prone to one-sided stomps?
Horse Grenades15 votesSo you want matches to be less even and more prone to one-sided stomps?
Wouldn't people climb faster if they didn't belong there?
RavenMagus3 votesPeople already climb faster if they don't belong there. They just don't create a bunch of imbalanced games along the way.
Quepha2 votes[{quoted}](name=ApocaIypse Meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a3ri93h4,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-20T17:55:43.243+0000)
Wouldn't people climb faster if they didn't belong there?
no, they wouldn't, because uneven matches don't actually evaluate player ability as well as even matches.
Glory ln Death7 votesYes, they would, because someone who is earning 30 LP per game because of their MMR will advance more quickly with an 80% winrate than with a 50% winrate.
Quepha3 votes[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a3ri93h4,comment-id=0002000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-20T21:15:56.749+0000)
Yes, they would, because someone who is earning 30 LP per game because of their MMR will advance more quickly with an 80% winrate than with a 50% winrate.
You're assuming their mmr is still accurate, but when the system has less-even games then its mmr determinations are less-accurate for all players, on your team and the enemy's.
Glory ln Death3 votesYour MMR is not going to drop for winning games, though. If you have a very high winrate, it's more likely to inflate your MMR, causing you to climb even faster until you hit a level where your winrate starts dropping, lowering your MMR, and slowing your climb.
Not xPeke3 voteswell who's fault is it for these unbalanced games? Riot for placing players low. Not my problem.
Photos of Ghosts4 votesMatches should just be division based.
Quepha33 votesSo players who are theoretically stuck in Bronze I with Plat III MMR would constantly be matched against other Plat players (thus creating an even game and causing that player's win rate to hover around 50%) but only get rewarded for being Bronze I.
Sounds completely shitty to me.
50% winrate of a plat-MMR player in Bronze would be gaining massive amounts of LP on a win with minimal reductions on a loss. There's no way they'd stay bronze for very long unless they were intentionally tanking their promos.
Very Hard Engage15 votescorrect, however it still demands you play at least 3 to climb from 0 -> 100 and then skip over 1 division at a time, assuming disgusting win rates through silver and gold.
that leaves a player needing to win at least 30 consecutive games to reach their rank. (assuming 10 divisions from b1 to p5) (3 per division + 1 skip between every time = 15, + 2 or 3 promos = 30 total games minimum).
now if you dont skip.... its just hell needing well over 70 games.
now factor in 50-50 matchmaking.... 140 games
now add in streaks, LP adjustments failed promos, leavers dcs, not getting your role, banned out.... you're looking of upwards of 250 games every time.
Quepha5 votescorrect, however it still demands you play at least 3 to climb from 0 -> 100 and then skip over 1 division at a time, assuming disgusting win rates through silver and gold.
that leaves a player needing to win at least 30 consecutive games to reach their rank. (assuming 10 divisions from b1 to p5) (3 per division + 1 skip between every time = 15, + 2 or 3 promos = 30 total games minimum).
now if you dont skip.... its just hell needing well over 70 games.
now factor in 50-50 matchmaking.... 140 games
now add in streaks, LP adjustments failed promos, leavers dcs, not getting your role, banned out.... you're looking of upwards of 250 games every time.
I'm pretty sure the climb would be much faster than you describe, a plat player in silver league is a ridiculously cherry-picked scenario and you should expect the system to resort to equally ridiculous LP gains/losses, promo number fudging, and division skipping and i'm pretty sure their first promo would probably jump them straight into gold 2 or 3.
SilentBomber3 votesI'm pretty sure the climb would be much faster than you describe, a plat player in silver league is a ridiculously cherry-picked scenario and you should expect the system to resort to equally ridiculous LP gains/losses, promo number fudging, and division skipping and i'm pretty sure their first promo would probably jump them straight into gold 2 or 3.
Even diamond players have admitted that Silver(and not only) this season is a horrible tier to climb because of many reasons that are already stated.The amount of afk this season as well is huge from my experience(intentional or unintentional).
Quepha3 votesEven diamond players have admitted that Silver(and not only) this season is a horrible tier to climb because of many reasons that are already stated.
Sounds like every season, and I'm pretty sure when complaining about difficulties in solo climbing they tend to reference gameplay changes that reduce snowballing and solo contribution to a win aka gameplay changes that the masses ask for every single season because the alternative makes for intensely un-fun experiences. LP/Promos are not really considered the issue.
Psybicilin4 votesI'm pretty sure the climb would be much faster than you describe, a plat player in silver league is a ridiculously cherry-picked scenario and you should expect the system to resort to equally ridiculous LP gains/losses, promo number fudging, and division skipping and i'm pretty sure their first promo would probably jump them straight into gold 2 or 3.
I'm not sure why people are down-voting this. I'm pretty sure if you had plat 5 MMR and won you're silver 5 promos you would just get skipped to gold 5. I've never experienced MMR inflation that high though.
Very Hard Engage1 voteslike i said, it depends on LP gains, win streaks, and timing. my total game estimate is from straight 50-50 assuming win one lose the next one every time.
smurfs average 80~90 games to get back to plat. thats realistic.
Aeszarck2 votesI'm pretty sure the climb would be much faster than you describe, a plat player in silver league is a ridiculously cherry-picked scenario and you should expect the system to resort to equally ridiculous LP gains/losses, promo number fudging, and division skipping and i'm pretty sure their first promo would probably jump them straight into gold 2 or 3.
Definitely. Have you seen this post? A Challenger player literally climbed from Bronze V to Challenger in a week due to his incredible MMR. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5idm9i/from_bronze_5_to_challenger_in_one_week_ama/
ChargeItDownMid6 votes[deleted]
Very Hard Engage3 votesi've never seen a skip greater than 1 division, same with LP gains > 33. so its 3 in between tiers to raise your LP to get into promos, then completion of promos grants you a skip. your MMR simply doesn't raise that fast even if you win every game.
Aeszarck1 votescorrect, however it still demands you play at least 3 to climb from 0 -> 100 and then skip over 1 division at a time, assuming disgusting win rates through silver and gold.
that leaves a player needing to win at least 30 consecutive games to reach their rank. (assuming 10 divisions from b1 to p5) (3 per division + 1 skip between every time = 15, + 2 or 3 promos = 30 total games minimum).
now if you dont skip.... its just hell needing well over 70 games.
now factor in 50-50 matchmaking.... 140 games
now add in streaks, LP adjustments failed promos, leavers dcs, not getting your role, banned out.... you're looking of upwards of 250 games every time.
Check out this guy. He literally climbed from Bronze V to Challenger in a week. That's definitely not enough time for 250 games. He did not say exactly how many games he played, but one week of games is at most about 105 games if he's playing 15 solo queue games per day, which would be insane. He most likely played less.
Very Hard Engage3 votesAeszarck1 voteshttps://lan.op.gg/summoner/userName=chulofox
lan server......
131 total games played.
Okay, I was slightly wrong. Sorry. Still, that's his entire history for all of Season VII, not his history during his climb. I still think he played around 100 games to climb.
To your original point, that's a climb from Bronze V to Challenger in 131 games. That's even greater a climb than Bronze I to Platinum V, and it's about half your projected amount of games. Players are capable of climbing much more quickly than you seem to think they can.
Very Hard Engage2 votescheck his season 6. he had well over 300 games played with a tremendous win rate. he raised his MMR at the end of season 6.
then combined with his placements... he likely ended up in g1 to start.
and again..... lan server
Aeszarck2 votescheck his season 6. he had well over 300 games played with a tremendous win rate. he raised his MMR at the end of season 6.
then combined with his placements... he likely ended up in g1 to start.
and again..... lan server
His MMR was always really high, he just dodged games and intentionally fed to get down to Bronze V. That's why he was able to get Platinum I after his provisionals and climb very quickly to Challenger after that. LAN server does not have a different MMR system, even if they have on average worse players. It is still just as hard to rank up as a LAN player. Furthermore, he's also a LAN player. A KR player may have no problem on the LAN server, but he's a legitimate LAN player on the LAN server.
Flawless Fetus3 votesRight. The league's need to go. Like how it used to be mmr defines your rank. Lp should not exist. So someone who is gold (pretty sure gold was 1500 elo) would only face other players near 1500 elo.
Psybicilin1 votesSo players who are theoretically stuck in Bronze I with Plat III MMR would constantly be matched against other Plat players (thus creating an even game and causing that player's win rate to hover around 50%) but only get rewarded for being Bronze I.
Sounds completely shitty to me
I take it you've never division skipped? The only way this is possible is if you miraculously lost every single promo or you intentionally dodged promo series.
JuhnChan4 votesI have 8 level 30 accounts, so I've seen a lot of shit.
I've experienced going from Silver IV to Plat V in <150 games, thanks to lucky streaks and skipping nearly every other division.
I've also experienced failing promos 20 times IN A ROW despite having "promo helper" (literally 20 times. If I said 19 times would that make it more believable?) Yeah that's right. I got to promos and had two-loss streaks on those exact games 20 times in a row.
And as a former Plat player, I've also experienced failing placements 1-9, then going on another 10 game loss streak, falling so deep into bronze it took me over 150 games just to get out of bronze, only to get completely stuck in Silver. And after 200 infuriating and braindead games, you really forget how to play like a high elo player. Lemme tell you, the stupid really is contagious. It's so bad I tried to switch accounts, but now on this account I'm stuck in the same situation. Silver 5 0 LP. Nearly 400 games in this elo. Assuming each game is about 30 minutes long on average, and it take 10 minutes to get into game, that's 40 minutes or so (total underestimation) time dedicated to each game, or 267 hours of play, just to be stuck in the same place. Even assuming I religiously played 8 hours every day like it was my job (I don't), that's over a month's worth of play.
A sick waste of time. Yet I still play. Why do I do this to myself? Maybe I'm masochistic. Maybe I like the feeling of tilting into chaos and oblivion.
Flawless Fetus5 votesThe mmr should be visible, and the league's need to go. Ranked was so much more fair, and enjoyable, when the elo system existed. The league system added a bunch of "fun" bells and whistles that are detrimental to ranked integrity.
Quepha1 votes[{quoted}](name=Blended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a3ri93h4,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-03-20T17:48:44.901+0000)
The mmr should be visible, and the league's need to go. Ranked was so much more fair, and enjoyable, when the elo system existed. The league system added a bunch of "fun" bells and whistles that are detrimental to ranked integrity.
I thought Riot reported a large uptick in player participation in ranked when they instituted the league system and a major dropoff in certain kinds of behavior along the lines of only playing the minimum number of games required to prevent elo decay.
Terchio1 votesThere is minimal difference in the systems. The only benefit is a more obvious step-style progression through LP and better rank representation with the [insert champion's name]'s League system. Aside from that, you still had some invisible number tossing you into games well above your rank, and the excuse always was that if you beat higher ranked players, you earned more. Now they suddenly have a "successful system" simply based on a fresh coat of paint.
Edit: As far as the elo decay goes, they simply revised decay lines to only effect the most active of players. Was nice of them, but all it did was incentivize the more softcore, seasonal players to not drop the game due to decay from a playtime lull. Was a bit of an obvious decision. That has very little to do with the hidden number mentality of the ranked system. Again, fresh coat of paint making the craggy parts of the system look better.
Quepha1 votesThere is minimal difference in the systems. The only benefit is a more obvious step-style progression through LP and better rank representation with the [insert champion's name]'s League system.
OK, so there's benefit to the league system. What's the con? You seem to be claiming it leads to less even matches, but the league system isn't used for matchmaking at all except for the rule that you can't party with someone more than a full league away from you. It would be impossible for the league system to damage match quality.
Terchio2 votesI thought Riot reported a large uptick in player participation in ranked when they instituted the league system
I'm claiming that the uptick that was involved had nothing to do with the matchmaking advantages of the new ranked system, only with the look in the interface being improved. The improved player participation was a byproduct of other non-MMR/ELO factors, so if someone claimed it as evidence, it would be just like Riot to call it a success based on the successes around it.
And you forget that the league system is used for general stature within the community, maybe not intended by the Riot team, but I doubt it since they even designed rewards around said rankings. I don't get, though, how we can both be arguing the unimportance of the league system, and instead of logically removing the unneeded block between me and my legitimate rank, you instead argue it's just a show, let it continue. Why have it? Why diminish the actual rankings for the game? What am I playing for, again?
And please don't tell me you're not into the prizes. If Riot doesn't need accolades, they can do away with the entire ranked system as a whole. It is the entire point.
Quepha1 votesThe league system was designed as a more fun way to get those accolades and prizes compared to simply getting a single number up high enough.
Terchio2 votesSo then why is basically the only true accolade shrouded behind mysterious numbers that are not used for matchmaking, and therefore don't truly apply to the game in a realistic manner? Know any games with accolades like, "you're playing like someone 10 levels under you"? Because that's exactly what some of these Plat players are getting.
Flawless Fetus2 votesI'm not surprised more people began playing ranked after the changes. It became more "noob friendly" and aesthetically pleasing. Bronze used to be an achievement. No doubt that all of the people who were afraid to play ranked began to play once riot added a bottom rank. It used to be if you were bad you remained unranked. I think 1200 elo was bronze, but I could be wrong.
Also the division/tier system does bring some excitement. So I'm not surprised more people are consistent in playing. It seems like they compromised the integrity of ranked in order to create a dopamine trap. Lol. Season 6s dynamic queue was proof that they've definitely eased up on keeping the integrity of ranked.
Quepha1 votes[{quoted}](name=Blended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a3ri93h4,comment-id=0002000100000001,timestamp=2017-03-21T02:39:28.174+0000)
It seems like they compromised the integrity of ranked
how? it isn't like people can achieve higher divisions without legitimately improving at the game.
Flawless Fetus3 votesTrue. But silvers facing plats is something that shouldn't be happening, agreed? When they added that "feature" it was like they pooped on it. Lol
Bladerunner77777 votesIf someone is smurfing and on a huge winstreak, I want them to play with people that are ranks above me so I don't have to have give free losses
Critmaster Garen6 votesbecause people climbing to their ranks fast doesnt keep them playing and makes them less money.
theyd start to noticably cap out within 2 weeks at the start of the season, then lose interest and stop playing.
the system is geared to make your climb a slow grind with engineered losses, but not impossible. so you need many games to end up where you belong. unless youre literally a master/challenger level player and carry hard enough to start skipping divisions.
Ultra Rapid Fyre4 votesthen the high ranked streamers would lose their precious challenger positions so this is the only way to keep the streamers in the top tier, by destroying the lower tiers with this stupid system. Literally the only reason why people dont only play others in their ranked brackets
Haestro5 votesTake off the tinfoil hat lol.
Dolasaur3 votesHere you go!
http://competitive.na.leagueoflegends.com/season-3-faq
The link itself redirects to something useless for me. But a search gave me this cached page: http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=http%3a%2f%2fcompetitive.na.leagueoflegends.com%2fseason-3-faq&d=4668661184333312&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=5JKPQNh4CtZLD6k35war1v-1EQgwI2Sy
Or you can read it copy/pasted on the wiki: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/League_system#Season_3_FAQ
realDRdeal2 votes[{quoted}](name=ApocaIypse Meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a3ri93h4,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-20T15:19:02.191+0000)
I'm not saying I am for or against MMR, but I would just like to know why I am for or against. thanks!
Edit: What I mean is that why not MMR just determine how much LP you get per win not WHO you play. For example, if im Silver 2 I play Silver 2s, if my MMR is high I just get more LP.
Edit 2: Or return to the old ELO system. I was not a round in those days
TL;DR -> a visible MMR system with no veneer of tiers or ranks would be much simpler and more clearly indicate if player A is better than player B.
I will try to give a basic overview of what ELO/MMR is and how it relates to the rank system.
First, ELO is a system originally developed for chess players in which each player is given a score which indicates their skill relative to other players. That is to say an ELO of 1800 means nothing on it's own, only that a player with 1800 is better than a player with 1700, and better still than a player with 1000, etc. The basic way the ELO formula works is that the winner of the match between two players 'steals' a portion of the loser's score (i.e., it is a zero sum system). This portion of the score is based on the difference between the two scores and thus if there is a difference of 200 pts and the lower scored person wins the gain a greater number of points than if they beat a person with a score only 100 pts more. Additionally, as a higher scored individual is 'expected' to win, they steal a smaller portion of the loser's ELO than if the lower scored person (who would be expected to lose) wins.
Second, since ELO was developed for a 1v1 game it must be modified to accommodate a 5v5 game. This modification operates of the same premises that 1) the score is a skill ranking relative to other players in the system, and 2) winners gain pts based on the difference between their score and those of the opponents (also some modification to account for players on the winning and losing teams having different 'skill ratings' than each other). These modifications make the system not exactly an ELO system and thus Riot refers to it as MMR or match making rating (fyi, they have never released their actual formula and likely won't ever do so). Therefore, ELO and MMR are effectively the same thing in that they both calculate a relative skill level, only using different formulas (I will refer to MMR from her on).
Third, MMR is not fixed to the rank system. By this I mean there is not a perfect correlation between a particular rank/LP amount and MMR (i.e., it cannot be said that Gold 3 with 70 LP = X MMR). At best, an average MMR for for all individuals in a system (i.e., server) with a particular rank and LP total can be calculated. EDIT: LP gains and loses similar to MMR gains/loses in that if you are expected to lose (i.e., you and your team has a lower MMR than the opponents) you gain more LP for a win and lose less for a lose.
Fourth, because of features of the rank decay protection (i.e., cannot drop below div 5 in the lower tiers, cannot be immediately demoted following promotion) and promotion helper (free 'win' when re attempting promo), it is entirely possible that two players both in silver 5 could have vastly different MMRs. One could have lost a hundred games straight (and thus tanked their MMR to the average of the bottom half of Bronze 5) while the other could just repeatedly dodge promo games and thus auto lose and have an MMR significantly higher than the average silver 5 player.
So taking these all together we can conclude that matching players against each other based on MMR,theoretically, leads approximately equal skill levels facing each other making the outcome of a game dependant on the skill of the players involved in the game and their execution of mechanics, tactics, and strategy in that particular game. This SHOULD make for high quality games (where high quality means each team has a near equal chance of winning the game).
Now if players were matched based on rank (i.e., silver 5s could only match with silver 5s) it becomes possible for teams to be vastly different in actual skill (based on my fourth point). This also creates problems for queue times. In lower tiers, where there are many more players this could actually lower queue times (at the expense of quality though) as it is quite likely that at any given moment there are bronze 1 players queuing within moments of each other. However, at higher tiers this would massively increase queue times. Given that diamond 1 players are a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of the total league population, it may take quite a while for 10 D1 players to all queue (even longer when you factor in role preferences). This is why the current match making system has a function that allows larger MMR differences at higher ranks and as queue time increases.
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesTL;DR. Nevertheless overwatch shows us that both is working. Having tiers AND showing your MMR AND also determing your rewards in rating or losses by individual perfomance+the champ/hero you played. Riot is just lazy and doesn't care about their except how to make money out of it.