Boards›Gameplay

How can so many champs be left as complete shit for so long

Big Lincoln··16 votes·1,570 views

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Garen/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Diana/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Gnar/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Corki/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Ryze/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/TahmKench/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Nidalee/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Viktor/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Azir/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Poppy/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Trundle/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/DrMundo/

All champs with low play rate and mediocre to abysmal winrates, I could probably list some of the champs with avg winrate and tiny play rates too because if they were good they'd actually be picked, but these ones stand out for me. If all these champs have 'problematic design' maybe the problem is you

Why is this okay? it should almost never be acceptable to do this. and on this list only Azir is confirmed for any changes in the near future and Diana is just a maybe for the next disaster class update. kindred finally getting changes too

and before riot lovers go "well they just need more reworks u kno, they got big gameplay flaws" Garen reworked and then dumpstered Corki reworked and then dumpstered Ryze reworked 3 times, dumpstered every time, then VGU'd and dumpstered again (LUL) Viktor reworked twice and then dumpstered Nidalee reworked twice and then dumpstered Poppy COMPLETE OVERHAUL, dumpstered

This should stop being the go-to excuse, it's terrible for the game and coddles players. riot you need to figure your shit out, put more people on your balance team if you need to because this is unacceptable, there is no reason for this. It should not take months and especially not years to put these champs and others in an acceptable position.

also list ur shit picks and how riot has wronged you by dumpstering them, this is an angry circlejerk thread

edit: let's also not forget the other plethora of champs who were left trash for ages before riot remembered they exist MasterYi Udyr Chogath Varus Volibear Nunu Tristana etc

46 Comments

KONO RUBICK DA15 votes

most of those champions are stat-checking af and can't be buffed without ending up too reliable

and stop bringing competition champions into solo queue

tahm kench doesn't need buffs, and has 48% win rate in high elo that being said, he isn't a solo queue champion and requieres too much coordination which is why he is even more picked than thresh in MSI

Big Lincoln1 votes

did I say buff them tho

if these champs need to be addressed then address them, they are working at an unforgivable slow pace to put these champs in a spot that they can deem good

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

of course they need to be reworked

BUT THEY DONT WANT TO THATS THE PROBLEM

our overlord ghostcrawler stated that if low elo champions like jax/yi got reworked they would lose their popularity in low elo and then it wouldn't be good for the game

Big Lincoln1 votes

do you have source for that cos if true i'm gonna be mad

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/N6y3Y8z7-riot-ghostcrawlers-talk-at-gdc-2017-balancing-league-of-legends-for-every-player?comment=0001000c

see the long ass video? it was there, and then i asked him why he thought that and he didn't reply

Ralanr1 votes

How many questions did they not answer in general?

Ralanr1 votes

It's not that don't want to, it's that they aren't at the top of the list.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

yes they do, ask ghostcrawler

Big Lincoln2 votes

and stat-checking is being used too much as a "dirty word," it's not that bad a thing. not every melee can be yasuo

stat-check gives some of these champs a very clear power curve + strengths and weaknesses, to a degree statcheck is necessary and inevitable especially on immobile melee champs with weird exception like Illaoi, even then she either lands her E or loses almost any fight

and stop bringing competition champions into solo queue

no, riot has even said they don't like this situation where champs who are too strong in pro are bad in soloQ. but do we see change for this? no. and i play soloQ so i'll bitch about champs who are soloQ shitters.

KONO RUBICK DA6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fNpYVB3d,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2017-05-27T14:08:26.099+0000)

not every melee can be yasuo

yes they can? yasuo relies on a spell to do his job, certainlyt took example on pre-rework gp Q and made it a skillshot while making one of his important steroid avoidable by not being knocked up

for instance you can make yi E true damage only working if yi did something, or against a certain target

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fNpYVB3d,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2017-05-27T14:08:26.099+0000)

stat-check gives some of these champs a very clear power curve + strengths and weaknesses,

Lmao, that's simply untrue. Yi has no weaknesses in his kit, all his damage are undodgeable and too reliable

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fNpYVB3d,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2017-05-27T14:08:26.099+0000)

to a degree

a degree doesn't mean they should be 100% stat-checking

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fNpYVB3d,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2017-05-27T14:08:26.099+0000)

no, riot has even said they don't like this situation where champs who are too strong in pro are bad in soloQ. but do we see change for this? no. and i play soloQ so i'll bitch about champs who are soloQ shitters.

then buff adc morde he is perfectly viable and healthy if you have a premade support or coordination but completly trash if you play him alone in soloq

Big Lincoln1 votes

yes they can? yasuo relies on a spell to do his job, certainlyt took example on pre-rework gp Q and made it a skillshot while making one of his important steroid avoidable by not being knocked up

they still won't be like yasuo, only less bad than before. Volibear unless you completely change him from ground up will still rely on being able to beat you down with AAs so he can execute, w/ this kit all you can do is gate his steroids more but his ult is already pretty shit, unless you want to move it to his normal abilities i don't see why you would limit it further

yasuo is different because he's versatile and multi-tooled, when he's hyper-mobile but only in minion, conditional ranged damage+knockup that leads into his ult steroid, and wind wall giving him a strong answer to dangerous ranged attacks so he can do his job as a squishy melee carry. just not going to happen for most rework champs to have that many tools, like Garen for example is probably going to be a meathead champ even after he gets another rework, because being all-melee with no way to extend range demands it

a degree doesn't mean they should be 100% stat-checking

100% is bad i agree, but it's still partially necessary -- and for a lot of juggernauts it's unavoidable. maybe not divers because they have mobility but most of them do the exact same thing "but slightly differently becos they're unique" so who cares

then buff adc morde

ur sayin it like i'd have a problem with it

Essychu10 votes

poppy isnt dumpstered lol. shes completely balanced.

Big Lincoln1 votes

46% winrate is balanced? news to me

Essychu8 votes

shes barely played anymore because she isnt game breakingly broken anymore.

the meta slaves moved on.

PermabannedGaren16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fNpYVB3d,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-05-27T05:00:48.255+0000)

46% winrate is balanced? news to me

To be fair, she is apparently still a fairly well-regarded pick in high elo IIRC.

Ralanr4 votes

She's one of those, "Great in pro play, not so much in soloQ" champions.

Which sucks for me because I don't like seeing her nerfed whenever she hits 50%.

LegacyDAP2 votes

Poppy is not a good in Challenger at all unfortunately. She has a very VERY small pick rate and a 50/50% win rate. She's honestly pretty dog shit, but I'd like to believe this is more of an item problem and less of a champion problem.

Big Lincoln1 votes

https://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/

looked it up, Poppy has an OK to above avg winrate in diamond/master but isn't picked often(lower middle play rate based on flat # of games played), so I'm assuming she's been relegated to counter-pick/mains-only status

not impressed 2bh

doodlebob6668 votes

ryze is more of a meme than champ at this points

ProfDrDeath8 votes

Most of the champions that are in this situation are either having their slew of problems or work a lot better in a more coordinated environment than in solo queue. Also, LoLalytics looks at data from the top 10% of players only.

Garen : His problem is his completely onedimensional playstyle. He has no mana to manage, no team-oriented utility, no relevant in-combat decisions, but also no way to influence the action beyond his immediate, personal reach. Contrast Darius, who has a similar thematic, but is way more engaging to both play as and fight against (his pulls - dodging vs hitting well, his Q - when do I Q? Can I try to hit multiple enemies? Will they dodge into the inner circle?).

Corki : His mixed-damage burst in combination with Triforce has always made him one of the problem childs of the game. And, without Crit, Triforce only works semi-well on him - it is still an excellent first item, but it doesn't synergize nearly as much with the next parts of the build.

Ryze : Coordinated environments and his rather extreme dependency on ping make him plenty bad in solo queue even when he's pick/ban in competitive. There were supposed to be some coding improvements for his ping dependency.

Poppy : Suffers from the general hits tanks took during the midseason update (especially in regard to Sunfire Cape). However, during all their (justified, given how broken she was in competitive) nerfing, Riot never touched one of the biggest issues with her (imo) - namely, tank items being 15-30% more effective on her in regard to resistances.

Similar things go for most of the champions you mention here. Experience shows that the game is not in a better place if some/most of the champions you mention here are strong.

Also, Varus is not trash - he has barely below 50% solo-queue winrate and is a fairly common pick in competitive.

Ralanr1 votes

That's not an issue for Poppy imo. That's intended with her design as her tank steroid.

WoonStruck5 votes

Diana is the most non-meta mained champ in challenger. She's not bad. The mains are well known and feared at high MMR.

Viktor isn't weak at all. Still used competitively.

Same goes for Poppy. Most people being bad at her doesn't make her weak. She takes more effort than you think, considering the importance of timing and positioning. She's still used in high elo/competitive.

Kench still picked in competitive.

Ryze is still considered strong in the right hands, as always. That's a large part of the reason he ends up getting reworked each year.

Varus is doing fine and is still picked in competitive.

PermabannedGaren4 votes

You already listed my main complaint champion: Garen

Garen is, in my biased opinion, far and away the single worst rework that I've personally seen. It did literally nothing to fix his unhealthy play patterns or to give him more tools to work with so he wouldn't be such an exceedingly braindead and binary champion. All the rework did was remove Garen's consistent power everywhere except his E late game and perhaps his W mid game, in exchange for an extremely unreliably but ludicrously powerful steroid that made him even harder to balance.

No joke, has RiotRepertoir done ANYTHING good? Justify his continued employment at Riot for me.

Big Lincoln2 votes

buh he talks to us tho

it's fuckin sad that I even consider that a feat for people who lead the reworks

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

Reworked Garen > Old Garen. I crush my games with him. I am currently at 60% or so win rate on him in diamond. Some games, you do feel like the enemy team is too good for Garen, which is perfectly fine. Every champ needs counter play.

So stop bitching about my boy, Repertoir. I look forward to his take on the W rework, which is the only thing Garen actually needs changing, apart from maybe his base stats.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

Reworked Garen > Old Garen. I crush my games with him. I am currently at 60% or so win rate on him in diamond. Some games, you do feel like the enemy team is too good for Garen, which is perfectly fine. Every champ needs counter play.

So stop bitching about my boy, Repertoir. I look forward to his take on the W rework, which is the only thing Garen actually needs changing, apart from maybe his base stats.

To be perfectly blunt, the success of some literally who in Diamond V does not even begin to imply the champion is even slightly viable, much less good. Nor does it imply the champion is now healthier, because he surely isn't my dude.

And nah, Repertoir sucks total ass and his rework was garbage. I hope he feels bad about it. God knows I do.

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

They dont sell well and arent e-sports worthy so riot has no incentive to actually fix them. The riot that cared about balance left a long time ago now it's all about money first.

SickAnto2 votes

Diana is just a maybe for the next disaster class update.

Honestly, the Assassin and Tank(Avanguard) Update don't was so bad, in generally are successfull.

The real disaster class update is the Juggernaut, was a nightmare.

Shablagoo3 votes

LOL assassin rework was bad

Sp33d Zer02 votes

Because Garen's numbers there is in plat+ when he is best at low elos. Diana is a really rough champ when she is strong because she is a stat checking assassin. Gnar was THE best top laner for almost an entire season. Corki was THE best mid laner for like.... 3/4s of a season not too long ago, and a quarter of season 7. Ryze is bad in the hands of bad players, he is still picked like crazy in pro play. If they buff him, he will break pro play Tahm Kench still sees competitive play because of how good he can be utilized. Nidalee was a top jungler for a season and a half. Viktor was a top mid for an ENTIRE season, and is still used regularly in pro play. Azir is getting a rework because when his numbers are good, he is busted beyond belief. Poppy was THE best top laner for the entire beginning of season 7, several patches after he rework, and a number of times in between. Trundle is an amazing counter pick who steals stats from other champs. If he is strong, he is overbearing. Mundo is fucked.

Tobias Brackner2 votes

All the champs you listed are perfectly fine except for maybe Nunu/Corki.

And to be honest I can't remember when Tristana was ever trash.

Ganked By Tilt2 votes

Diana is weak because of her items being garbage and ap items not giving as much ap as they used to. In season 5 she was great. The meta also does her no justice, she cant do her one job which is kill someone quickly, shield/heals are too strong and everybody buys banshees and GA.

FeelsCampedMan1 votes

I'm surprised someone who mains immobile melees is complaining about Gnar being bad 47.58% ain't that bad It's pretty close to 48 which is decent

zlumpy1 votes

Tbh thats about where more skill intensive champs should fall win rate wise. I'm sure his mains still have higher win rates as opposed to random joe shmos like me who never play him and try it randomly with no practice on the champ.

The Anagram King1 votes

The worst part is, Viktor was GOOD after the first rework. The second one made him entirely reliant on items. Gosh, I wonder what happens when items are updated? :P

Critmaster Garen1 votes

meddler already said, they want to do some work on garen soonish (whatever that means).

he at least confirmed that its going to happen before the end of the season. i really hope theyre not waiting too long.

the simple reason why so many champions are left in the dumpster for so long is, because there are way too many champions in this game. the live team is incapable of giving every champion the attention they need. theyre already knee deep in shit in that regard, and more releases are only going to make it worse.

the problem is, even if you hired more people, you cant balance 20 or 30 champions per patch. the patches would become way too large, and next to the gigantic risk of introducing more bugs, too many changes at once would destabilize game balance even further. as seen by the preseason patches and class updates.

NextSkarnerNA1 votes

Add skarner to that list

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Perhaps they are balance issues?

Big Lincoln1 votes

then why isn't Lucian kept in the dumps when he constantly cycles between top tier and troll pick and never 'acceptable' clearly he has some balance issues

Hecarim Khazix are probably the two champs most likely to crawl out of the grave whenever they get nerfed into it for having "balance issues" why aren't they kept there if they're so problematic? at least Rengar has the decency to stay dead

the balance team's job is to fix balance issues. making/leaving them unplayable is not doing anything but reducing the viable champion pool in a game that prides itself on its expanding roster

sardiniii1 votes

All of the champions were not "dumpstered". At last worlds, nid had a 100% pick ban rate.

Ryze was a hotly contested pick at high elo only a few months ago.

Viktor will always have a deceptiveley low winrate because he is dificult and low elo players suck at him.

Corki was the highest winrate midlaner less than 7 patches ago, before he got severley nerfed.

Garen is a champ designed for low elo, people who dont understand the game play him and he has a low winrate because of it.

Zzzzzz

Not every champ needs to have a good winrate m8

Big Lincoln1 votes

the average is taken from plat+ which is not low elo. viktor has negative winrate except for in master's

"a few months ago" "7 patches ago" so not now, basically? just cos a champ was OP doesn't mean they should get tossed in the gutter, it shouldn't take months to figure out how to solve a problem if riot has a problem with the kit

sardiniii1 votes

Plat is low elo when you consider that the game is balanced around pro play.

On the flipside of what you are saying, just because a champ is below 50% winrate dosent mean they should be buffed

Elkington VI1 votes

Trundle was fine before he got nerf-batted multiple times. All they have to do is revert his Q nerf. Most people don't seem to realize how game-breaking of a nerf that was for him. The other nerfs can be built/rune'd around, but Rabid Bite no longer working on structures completely changes how he plays and severely nerfs his early-mid game (where he's supposed to be gaining a lead). All the nerfs to HP and cheap lifesteal aren't helping either.

He was already a team-dependent champ before they hurt his ability to push. Now he's super team-dependent.

Shadòw1 votes

The moment they start buffing/nerfing a champion the META will shift and new balance issues will appear. That goes for pretty much every change.

They still struggle to balance the game as it is now, now imagine they would start buffing these champions in addition to that, bringing them back into the META. This would develop a completely new META with far more balance issues than it is now. So they just have to take it slowly and can only try to adjust one after another over time to bring them back.

Trust me, you don't want to play the game anymore in it's state when they would just mindlessly buff all these champions at the same time.

BakedLotion1 votes

Poppy is fine. She's no where near dumpstered. In fact, she was one of the board's complaint cycle victims like 2 or 3 months ago lmao

Probably just bad meta/bad items for her right now.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Big Lincoln

these "upvote if you agree" threads are cancer
Memes & Games44 comments
268
votes
Look at all this GHOSTINESS
Story, Art, & Sound90 comments
241
votes
viktor changes are awful
Gameplay92 comments
185
votes
Generalists are bad and we want to rework tanks to be not that
Gameplay130 comments
170
votes
Have to say I'm pleasantly surprised by Warwick
Gameplay261 comments
159
votes
Why is Swain getting nerfed
Gameplay229 comments
157
votes