Make Dorans shield block 13 or so damage from a ranged auto attack

IsIsGankedParis··51 votes·4,423 views

Please.

73 Comments

poopoo peepee5 votes

I would love this. Mainly for that annoying Kayle top.

OblongOtter1 votes

I upvoted this, and then I realized that sometimes I'M the annoying Kayle top. Sorry about that. Although I play her AD with 9/21/0 most of the time, and also that's the best lane for her to go to. It's like when they nerfed Lulu's support and mid capabilities and she got forced to go top.

Duke Anax2 votes

That annoying Kayle top is mostly doing on hit magic damage, so this wouldn't help much.

doubleguac1 votes

She applies her damage by auto attacking. It doesn't matter that most of her damage is magic on-hit... reducing her auto attack damage by 13 would hurt her just as much as it would hurt a top lane ADC like quinn.

If a kayle and a quinn had equal attack speed, and were auto attacking a target for the same amount of time, they would both have their total damage dealt reduced by the same amount. It doesn't matter that one of them is dealing mostly physical damage, and the other is dealing mostly magic on-hit. The only factor that's important for flat damage reduction is attack speed.

The only way that dorans shield would affect kayle less than quinn is if you already had so much armor that the physical portion of Kayle's auto attack damage was reduced below 13 before the dorans damage reduction was applied. Obviously, that's never going to happen in a real game.

SleepyLionCub5 votes

how about we just make ninja tabi boots block 25% of the damage from ranged attacks, but then none from melee attacks. That way it really will be boots for assassins, rather than boots for tanks.

Rustling Bush19 votes

{quoted}

how about we just make ninja tabi boots block 25% of the damage from ranged attacks, but then none from melee attacks. That way it really will be boots for assassins, rather than boots for tanks.

25% damage from range attacks? that sounds stupid strong, to strong to be a balanced item

ImHerVoice3 votes

why? adc's do 700+ crits it would just mean they're only doing 500+ crits now. Sounds balanced to me.

JustMyBassCannon14 votes

People always say this matter-of-fact, as they don't understand how hard it is for an ADC to actually get crits that high against people actually building defense items.

Yeah, against the people who wouldn't build Ninja Tabi anyway, an ADC can get 700 damage crits. It's extremely unlikely, if not mathematically, provably impossible, for them to do the same against someone who has more than one Armor item.

Let's just say, theoretically, that I had a person with 200 Armor along with this Ninja Tabi's 25% DR. Now, accounting for Last Whisper and the ArPen mastery, my effective armor is 122, giving me about 55% physical resistance. 55% scaled multiplicatively with 25% means I actually have a total effective resistance of 66.2%, which is effectively the same resistance as if I had 196 Armor.

So I've all but negated their ArPen. In order for an ADC's crits to deal 700 damage to me, they'd need over 800 AD after Infinity Edge's Crit bonus.

At a more reasonable 300 AD, their crits are dealing around 250 damage.

When you actually know the math behind resistances, you realize just how ridiculous 25% DR would be if it was available to anyone.

ImHerVoice1 votes

thats funny I was a alistar with over 200 armor and armor boots guess what that ADC bought? LW. Oh suddenly 500+ crits herp derp. god bless his ult or you'd die in 5 or less autos like every other champ in the game.

Such a balanced class/item Kappa

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

Might be nice if I could look up the match and justify the numbers, but go ahead and hide behind a smurf account when you tell me this. It totally adds weight to your post.

  1. It doesn't matter who the fuck you're playing, unless you're specifically referring to damage taken during Alistar's ultimate (which, by the way, is literally impossible to get that kind of crit damage on Alistar).

  2. 200 Armor with Ninja Tabi included. After Last Whisper and Ninja Tabi--that is, the regular 10% you get right now--you have approximately 60% physical resistance. In order for a crit to deal at least 500 damage to you, they'd need to have about 493 AD. I'd like to actually see the match parameters so I could do more than just theorize that you're wrong, but with what I have here, I don't believe you.

ImHerVoice1 votes

keep supporting ADC meta I bet you play gnar/ryze top and enjoy it too don't cha? And then you realize adc's like lucian/jinx exist that have buffs on their autos to make them crit twice/their crits aoe/etc Its not just a raw amount./ Or you have tristana which has long range crits. Thats even more fun than the other too.

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

Almost every single meta has had ADCs at the center No, I'm usually either jungle or mid lane. I don't really give a damn which specific Marksman is the bee in your bonnet, the fact that they can kill a tank late-game is not broken. It's normal for the game's design. Check any other MOBA, and give me an example of carries with full builds being unable to crush tanks.

ImHerVoice1 votes

late game is 4+ items adc's are shredding tanks with IE+LW+yomuu's as the only tiems purchased. Thats 3 items thats mid game.

it's disgusting how hard you're supporting this broken ADC bullshit. its really disgusting.

Early= lane phase mid = seige phase/grouped up for objectives phase late game = objectives/ always skirmishing/teamfighting and shoving objectives/warding correctly.

Mongoose2 votes

nerds

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

I take pride in being a nerd, especially one who knows the mathematics, logic, theory and practice of their field of nerdiness.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

late game is 4+ items adc's are shredding tanks with IE+LW+yomuu's as the only items purchased. Thats 3 items thats mid game.

That's either a hilariously bad tank, a one-sided scenario with too many variables thrown to the wind, or a load of bullshit. You can take your pick.

My younger brother plays tanks, and it takes forever for someone to kill him because he knows what he's doing. He fucking 2v1s and either wins or draws out the fight long enough for backup.

But I have as much proof of this as you do of tanks being shredded too quickly in a fair build matchup. And you wouldn't believe me if I did, anyway. The fact that I'm against a mentally retarded anti-carry defense option means that, [sarcasm]apparently, I'm 100% totally fine with how things are and I never want them to change.[/sarcasm]

If it disgusts you, then be disgusted as well as incompetent.

ImHerVoice1 votes

so you're saying you literally don't play the role and talk like you do? Oh ok. Stfu.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

No thanks, because unlike most players, I don't satisfy myself with just my main role. I learn how the game works at all angles. I'd rather have every perspective possible before making asinine statements like yours.

I get more satisfaction from learning game mechanics than ranking status.

Tank is not my main role, but I've played it often enough to know what I'm saying. And I'm saying that I would not like to play a game with you as head of balance behind it.

ImHerVoice1 votes

Just play your 1 role you're barely average at and stop replying since I can't blacklist/block on these forums. I wouldn't want to balance a game thats run by casuals. you couldn't PAY ME enough.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

And you just keep failing to tank as Alistar.

You wouldn't balance a game. End of sentence.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

dont compare lol to other mobas because lol cares about real ballance where stuff like dota has tanks assasinating ppl

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

I'm not comparing their balance, I'm comparing their design.

And common to any MOBA is the fact is that a Carry getting an XP/Gold lead is far more devastating than a non-Carry. Yes, you can still pull off some ridiculous batshit in DotA if you know what you're doing, but that wasn't the point of mentioning DotA.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

I'm not comparing their balance, I'm comparing their design.

ballance and design are tied together but lol and dota difer too vastly to simply compare

And common to any MOBA is the fact is that a Carry getting an XP/Gold lead is far more devastating than a non-Carry.

there are no carries in lol actualy when we speak about games like dota or hon carries are guys who just scale insanely hard into the late game and can singlehandedly decimate enemies while in lol we have teamwork where diferent classes have diferent roles indeed an adc pumped with gold is hella strong but that does not happen because he is a carry but because tankyness got rekt ballance wise and its always better to increase your damage than survivability unless you are getting oneshotted or kited to death without a chance to fight back

so yeah adc with gold is better but thats not caused by him having this trait as a role but riots ballance decisions (nerfing assasins and tanks giving adc new tools to kite with)

also sht hits the fan when a zed pops up and wrecks your 10/0 adc like hes nothing (dota carry does not face problems like that, he can just meet other carry or a fed opponent but there is no specified class to take a carry down)

btw i didnt play dota this much to be an expert and ill prolly say something that actualy doesnt exist in dota but i think i grasp the concept

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fMaAmH7E,comment-id=00030000000100000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2014-12-25T21:02:54.163+0000)

balance and design are tied together but lol and dota difer too vastly to simply compare

The basis of the design is similar, regardless of the utterly different balance of their designs. This is like saying Doom and Call of Duty can't both be called First-Person Shooters, because they have entirely different mechanics (y'know, aside from the pretty central "use gun on man" bit).

I will not be so blind as to ignore the differences that make them both entirely different games, but I also will not ignore the similarities.

there are no carries in lol actualy

"What are Late-game Champions?" for $100

  1. Marksmen tend to have a weak early-game that requires the assistance of a second champion--usually a Support or Tank, although Mages aren't alien to the job--in order to safely spend the first 10 minutes or so of the match farming minion waves for gold and XP. There are maybe three Marksmen you could viably take in the top lane (not counting Teemo) without a support to keep them alive, depending on the match-up, but the increased vulnerability to jungle ganks still makes it less than preferable. After said 10-15 minute "Laning Phase," they still need to follow a teammate to be safe, but they are a much more significant damage threat than most. By the time they hit the 40-minute/5-item mark, they (mostly) have the highest sustained damage potential, and if given 5 seconds on a target, will leave a larger dent than anyone else on their team.

  2. Not only are most (if not all) Marksmen strong by late-game, there are several Fighters, Mages, and even a couple Tanks with late-game strength. They don't have the damage output of Marksmen, but they usually have more utility or AoE as a replacement for pure single-target damage.

  3. Damage naturally out-scales defense potential, because every defense build has 2 scalars to increase, while magic offense has 3 and physical offense has 4

AP-based champions have AP, CDR and Magic Pen. AD-based champions have AD, AS, Armor Pen and Crits. Defense, whether physical or magic, has Resistance and Health.

Let me show this with a very simplified version of the math behind it. Let's say you have a total of 12 to distribute between these modifiers.

Physical offense has 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 Magical offense has 1 x 1 x 1 Defense has 1 x 1

If you distribute as evenly as possible, you get the following results;

4 x 4 x 4 x 4 = 256 5 x 5 x 5 = 125 7 x 7 = 49

Now, obviously, the math is a little more complex than that, but the concept is that offense has more multipliers than defense. For this reason, offense will always, eventually out-scale defense. Riot has defense values scaled such that early defense boosts are stronger than early offense boosts, but not so much that they have a chance to match or beat offense in strength.

I do agree that defense itemization needs some buffing. Between the increase in anti-tank items combined with the nerfs to defense items, defense is falling behind a bit sooner than it should. Not by much, but enough that it needs just the slightest boost.

Still, the fact that Offense > Defense in the late game is by design, not by accident.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

"What are Late-game Champions?" for $100

tell me that when you will get soloed by lvl 18 renekton hes sloppy but capable of that (assuming you dont pick one of those infinite kiting carries)

our carries are much weaker than dota carries and the diference in roles or imporrtance of kiting for them makes things more even

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fMaAmH7E,comment-id=0003000000010000000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-26T20:50:42.889+0000)

tell me that when you will get soloed by lvl 18 renekton

Remind me when I let a level 18 Renekton solo me.

I don't tend to play Marksmen, but when I do, it's usually Draven because he's actually fun for me. And Draven has probably one of the strongest anti-dives in his E>W. Interrupt your gap closer, slow you while I get an MS burst.

And I'm not a fool. I won't let Renekton get close enough that the first dash of his E is enough to start a combo.

MemeticMachine2 votes

mathematically impossible is 0.00001% (even that is still mathematically possible) Although with the IE nerf, crits on adcs is much more unlikely. The problem with this % block is that it is completely biased towards ranged champions. % defence is much too strong on anyone regardless of role. (it should at very best be a flat amount for a short moment and restricted to special items; tabi shoes are too common) this will do nothing to gangplank, tryndamere, maestro yi, and yasuo (especially yasuo) whose crit is much much more consistent. I think everyone can live without critplank/ the other annoying melee adcs.

U4fyn2vZzW1 votes

Oh give me a fucking break, an ADC has the full capability to shred a tank with only I.E and Last Whisper while outsustaining their futile attempts at returning damage due to lifesteal crits.

This class is fucking broken and is in full need of a rehaul.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Says who? You, random forum naysayer of Riot's balance?

What about the ADC class is actually broken? What part of how they function is going against their design or the design principles of Riot Games?

Maximum Zilean2 votes

{quoted}

why? adc's do 700+ crits it would just mean they're only doing 500+ crits now. Sounds balanced to me.

Who in their right mind keep the dorans items until 30 minutes in when carries start doing that damage?

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

adc giving no shit about 300+armour and 3k+hp are totaly ballanced thou

honestly looking at the current ballance i think that such an item would realy throw the game into the air since adcs wouldnt be the masters of killing everything and wouldnt be worth to be kept as the center of the game

flibitydoo2 votes

This change would make turret diving even more ridiculous as is. Tanks (such as mundo) would pretty much abuse this to dive carries even more than they currently do.

Tsugaga5 votes

Obviously tower shots would ignore the damage reduction.

Narasimha1 votes

No, that wouldn't change the fact that carries wouldn't be doing much damage to the tanks as they dove.

Tsugaga1 votes

Well there's usually only 1 ADC on a team, and an ADC is supposed to kite. An ADC can get dove and killed regardless, it's up to them to kite properly and up to their team to be there and not let them get tower dove in the first place.

ThePlasticSpork4 votes

All hail lord Thresh, the support that is now 1 v 1ing your ADC without any help from his own

Behold the terror

CoolKnightST3 votes

Well it's not the first time they buff the "block". Maybe start by increasing it to 10 (from 8).

V3.8: Passive changed to block 8 damage from champion basic attacks from 6.

Martyrofsand3 votes

Because Thresh isn't insanely strong as is in bot lane. Keep you dorans shield crap out of bot lane that cancer never needs to return.

bahamutkaiser2 votes

Making a single item solution to the ranged vs melee disparity would just limit melee build options.

Beyond that, defensive items could use a boost in general, since melee units use defense more than ranged units, but more importantly, some offensive effects need to be improved for melee attacks, specifically critical hit/damage. Ranged units have too much freedom to build damage and use auto attacks, so some overall effect should be altered to benefit melee in a fundamental way, something that works for ranged units, but works better for melee behaviors rather than ranged. Alternately, they could add critical damage ratio to most melee skills that way melee get more benefit from a stat that they can't multiply as easily as ranged units.

BrutalCabbage2 votes

If Doran Shield were that strong it would be picked as a first item by every single support in the game, just like early season four, then you'd see Leona and Thresh every game AGAIN and start QQing. Doran's Shield is already pretty good against ranged any way.

Rikari2 votes

ANDwith 80 health and health regen 8 health every 5 seconds? sounds like the new adc main item.

Phil Fly1 votes

Doran's shield could be a melee-only item.

The Worst KogMaw1 votes

Sounds like the new Leona/Blitz/Braum main item.

doubleguac2 votes

If dorans shield reduced ranged auto attack damage by 13, it would be bought first by almost every single laner. An ADC would get more dueling power out of a dorans shield than a dorans blade. If you're playing mid, and your opponent bought this first, and you didn't, they would be able to constantly win auto attack trades, and harass you out of lane (especially since it also reduces single target spell damage by 8). So both mid laners would probably open with it. Most supports would almost certainly rush it, and buy their GP5 item on their first back.

Pretty much the only laner who wouldn't buy this item first every game would be the top laner, since there would be very few viable ranged top laners left.

We already went through a meta where literally every laner opened with a dorans shield. We don't need to go back to that. I didn't particularly enjoy playing against Nasus's that were completely immune to harass.

WarCrazy1 votes

The fact this is even considered a good idea from so many people worries me if Riot actually took some of you guys ideas into consideration. This is why Lee Sin nerfs didn't go through. All the bronzies get wrecked against him so they scream nerfs but the pro's made their voices heard.

Arveanor3 votes

Yeah, and if you watch professionals play the game, you can obviously tell that they think Lee Sin is a really weak champion.

edit: ftr, I actually agree that this dorans shield change is a bad idea.

Fiorinol1 votes

Remember when Thresh would always pick Doran's Shield and you couldn't move him away from bot lane because he was too tanky?

Yea, I don't want to have to deal with that again, it was not fun at all.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

This really would solve alot of problems tbh. They should balance it in a way that Only melee champion benefit from that specific perk of it tho.

Then again, Braum is already a pain in the arse to kill. Yikes. Actually, lets not.

Raptamei1 votes

Yes, buff Doran's Shield against ranged attacks.

That would make bot lane very interesting.

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