Dynamic Queue and role selection aren't the same thing

PhDs Nuts·Jun 3, 2016·62 votes·1,609 views

Dynamic Queue is "less toxic" than old SoloQ because you're allowed to pick your role. If you play exclusively solo ranked, you've had plenty of games already where your team was full of solo players who chose their role before the game started and everything was fine. The "toxicity" in solo queue was because of the combination of "pick order vs call order" and then not being able to do anything about it after someone locked in anyway.

If they were to bring SoloQ back, there's no reason why they shouldn't still include role selection. You can want a dynamic system that only lets you queue up as an individual. The only thing "dynamic" about it is the match making.

29 Comments

Solari FortuneJun 3, 20168 votes

Dynamic Queue = Queue with more than one other person New Champ Select = Pick what Lane you want to go

TurquoiseYoshiJun 4, 20164 votes

New Champ Select also includes pre-pick champion hovers and 1 ban for each of the last 3 picks.

DeathBurstJun 3, 20165 votes

"Dynamic Queue and role selection aren't the same thing", that's right.

And half the problems people blame on DQ actually come from Role Selection. Especially the Queue timers. And so that's why they proposed auto-fill (i.e. "partially reverting role selection") to solve this issue.

So that still means the other half of the problems really come from DQ. Like the lower quality of match-making. That's why they limited DQ to 3-man premades (i.e. "partially reverting DQ") to solve this issue.

See how the situation is similar, on both side? And yet, people still blame everything on DQ, and ABSOLUTELY NO ONE would even consider going back to no role selection at all. Strange isn't it?

ACENOXJun 3, 20169 votes

{quoted}

"Dynamic Queue and role selection aren't the same thing", that's right.

And half the problems people blame on DQ actually come from Role Selection. Especially the Queue timers. And so that's why they proposed auto-fill (i.e. "partially reverting role selection") to solve this issue.

So that still means the other half of the problems really come from DQ. Like the lower quality of match-making. That's why they limited DQ to 3-man premades (i.e. "partially reverting DQ") to solve this issue.

See how the situation is similar, on both side? And yet, people still blame everything on DQ, and ABSOLUTELY NO ONE would even consider going back to no role selection at all. Strange isn't it?

queue timers are even more increased with dynamic queue because of premades

DeathBurstJun 3, 20161 votes

Well, obviously I have no proof of that, but I believe the player base is large enough so you have all different kind of pieces (groups of 1, 2, 3 etc.) in sufficient numbers, and the most limiting factor is the amount of supports in the Queue. If the player base was smaller, then certainly the 2 problems would amplify each other, but with the amount of people playing LoL, I doubt it's an issue.

ChargeItDownMidJun 4, 20162 votes

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DeathBurstJun 5, 20161 votes

That's bullsh*t. There is a lack of support, that's a fact. As long as you have less of one role, you'll have large queue times. Turn it however you want, you need ~20% of each role. If there is e.g. 10% of supports , even in SoloQ, you would wait a lot. DynamicQ is maybe aggravating the problem. Maybe, I insist. But it's definitely not the cause. And care to explain how you arrive to this wonderful number of 50-80%? I'm curious...

Basically, you need to assemble pieces to complete a team, and as you said it yourself, the player pool is quite large, so as long there isn't a problem of proportion in the set of pieces, it's quite easy to "find the right piece" to complete a given team, due to the large total number. But if there is a problem of proportions, you'll never be able to complete all the teams.

ChargeItDownMidJun 5, 20161 votes

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DeathBurstJun 5, 20161 votes

Your stuff about 2 roles in only true if people actually put support as secondary sometimes. I hope the new algorithm trying to give the primary more often will help on that matter, but currently, no one puts support secondary because it means you'll get support more than 60-70% (the article cited 84% for mid/sup as the worst combination).

And the 66 down to 15-30, you're just pulling that number out of thin air. But more importantly, it doesn't matter. Even if it was 66 down to 1, as long as the algorithm is able to find that 1 combination fast enough, everyone will be happy. On top of that, I started compiling statistics based on my own games, and Solo and 2-man seem to comprise the vast majority of the player base, it's not at all as if we went from "all people are playing Solo/Duo" to "everyone except a select few are playing in groups of 3-4-5".

ChargeItDownMidJun 5, 20161 votes

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DeathBurstJun 6, 20161 votes

I "keep bringing it up" because that's what actually matters. But you're obviously not here to discuss, so I'll stop this "conversation" here.

(And you're still pulling that "15-30" out of thin air, whether you like it or not.)

PhDs NutsJun 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I "keep bringing it up" because that's what actually matters. But you're obviously not here to discuss, so I'll stop this "conversation" here.

(And you're still pulling that "15-30" out of thin air, whether you like it or not.)

It's a matter of combinations. When there are 5 roles available and everybody queues up solo (at the same MMR), the limiting factor is whichever role has the fewest players. If one role is significantly less popular, matches will only be made as fast as that role becomes available (and now I've just realized this is a limited reactant chemical reaction problem).

When you introduce premades, then the matchmaking becomes much more restricted because now combinations of 1, 2, 3, and 4 players have to be fit together while also ensuring that each role is filled. If the premade has someone willing to play the limiting (least popular) role, then their queue time will be faster as the remaining position(s) get filled by the less demanded solo players queued up for the more popular roles.

ChargeItDownMidJun 4, 20162 votes

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DeathBurstJun 5, 20161 votes

Then why all premades containing a support manage to find a match pretty fast? Whatever the size and role selection of the other player in the premade, as long as you get a Sup in the group, it's almost instant.

KiharonJun 3, 20162 votes

When role selection was added, it was added to both normal draft and ranked. Additionally, ranked acquired dynamic group sizes. With this in mind, you can look at normal draft as a kind of control group and see if "toxicity" went down with the addition of role select. If so, you assume that role selection will have a similar effect on ranked. If ranked sees less or further reduction in "toxicity" than normals, you assume the difference is the change from solo to dynamic.

They made a passing reference in the roundtable video that I took to suggest they did this.

DeathBurstJun 5, 20161 votes

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what it meant. Thank you for explaining it and for defending the truth :p

The Yetii RiderJun 5, 20162 votes

I almost never type when I'm in premades. I just groan and complain out loud to my friends over voice chat, where it's harmless.

It's better at keeping me from tilting (because my friend just agrees and we move on, rather than starting a chat war flaming each other) and it doesn't hurt anyone in the game.

I'm inclined to believe that toxicity is down in games with premades simply because no one types at all in those games.

PhDs NutsJun 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fKcTl10d,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-06-05T00:58:23.593+0000)

I almost never type when I'm in premades. I just groan and complain out loud to my friends over voice chat, where it's harmless.

It's better at keeping me from tilting (because my friend just agrees and we move on, rather than starting a chat war flaming each other) and it doesn't hurt anyone in the game.

I'm inclined to believe that toxicity is down in games with premades simply because no one types at all in those games.

I'm the opposite. I know not to be toxic in chat, so I don't say anything like that during a game. When I'm on voice with a premade, I say all that negative shit out loud instead: "Yeah that was bad", "This game isn't looking too good", etc.

spombjopJun 3, 20161 votes

They should just bring old champ select back but not solo queue.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 4, 20166 votes

That solves no problems, takes out the good/popular parts of the new system, and leaves the bad/unpopular parts.

spombjopJun 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That solves no problems, takes out the good/popular parts of the new system, and leaves the bad/unpopular parts.

Good parts about new system: Dynamic Queue

Bad parts: New champ select

PhDs NutsJun 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That solves no problems, takes out the good/popular parts of the new system, and leaves the bad/unpopular parts.

What's the popular part? It seems that the community likes picking their role (though hates that "fill = support" and "support secondary = support"), and dislikes being penalized for playing solo and being matched with/against premades while playing solo.

If the DQ system existed as it does now but limited you to only playing solo, I feel like that would be the perfect soloQ system. They'd still have to work on the support role, but that's a global problem, not a queue specific problem.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 4, 20161 votes

Exactly. This guy asked for the opposite of what you're saying is "perfect".