Riot should honestly be embarassed at Twitch's current state.

WoonStruck·Dec 31, 2016·71 votes·4,360 views

There's absolutely no excuse to thinking that early game mana costs were his issue.

#NewBalanceTeam2017

97 Comments

Mira Arya EntheDec 31, 201636 votes

This is what happens when you hire the guy that ruined WoW.

dakota saturnDec 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fK9BXVk2,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-31T00:44:54.783+0000)

This is what happens when you hire the guy that ruined WoW.

Who?

WoonStruckDec 31, 201610 votes

Ghostcrawler.

Mira Arya EntheDec 31, 201624 votes

Ghostcrawler is from Blizzard, so is Xelnath. Both were known to be absolutely terrible at game balance. For example frost mages and hunters were dominant in Arena's for years, not flavor of the month, flavor of several expansions. Also they made things like warlocks(caster) have upwards of 1.4m HP when tanks only had 800,000. While being able to fire 40 yard attacks over and over that dealt between 300k-800k damage.

Overall they did a bunch of crud nobody liked.

Baron PerenoldeDec 31, 20163 votes

Haha and remember the rage that followed when Locks got the nerfs they deserved? Priceless.

Nameless VoiceDec 31, 20163 votes

Ghostcrawler doesn't even work on game balance, though.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 31, 201613 votes

Lead game designer afaik. So he will have a say about it.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 31, 20166 votes

To cite ghostcrawler: Melees are boring and wetnoodle fights, need no mechanics or skill. (always bringing up shyvana, mundo fight). Ranged all need skill, are exciting blabla. Now you know the obsession at riot about ranged champs.

Craft ZeppelinDec 31, 201621 votes

Seriously, they need to do something about this constant mandatory adc meta on botlane. Always, just always the god tier adcs seem to have the least counterplay in game.

SGT Dingle BerryDec 31, 20167 votes

ADC are garbage right now bro, their "counterplay" is the current meta and lack of good armor pen.

paperbIadeDec 31, 201621 votes

[{quoted}](name=SGT Dingle Berry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fK9BXVk2,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-12-31T00:50:19.114+0000)

ADC are garbage right now bro, their "counterplay" is the current meta and lack of good armor pen.

item 3036 item 3033

TreyhovaDec 31, 20161 votes

Poppy still gets around 250 armor, plus some of the highest bases in the game.

WoonStruckDec 31, 201620 votes

Lol you must be joking.

Jinzo TorranceDec 31, 20166 votes

So who's good other than Caitlyn Vayne Twitch Jinx ( Ezreal )?

Fervor is weak, CotC is still too strong, 4-manning bot ganks are rampant.

You guys are in serious denial about ADC state.

WoonStruckDec 31, 20168 votes

Fervor is weak? And?

Look at the absolutely broken state of Warlord's, an ADC-specific keystone essentially.

Look at the absolutely broken state of Runaan's.

4-man ganks bot are because you both obtain and deny significantly more power than successfully ganking any other lane. On top of that, bot tower is easier to take down, and first tower gold is absolutely broken as well.

It has nothing to do with the current state of ADCs.

Jinzo TorranceDec 31, 20163 votes

And? And it means that more than half the ADC can't be played anymore at their fullest, at the exclusion of Jhin (and MF to some extent).

Runaans is a problem but it's only built by Cait, Twitch, Jinx, which clearly shows that only 3 ADC are abusing it, with Vayne being the exception here.

4-man completely decides which team will win, given that is the lane where ADC lanes, one ADC will reach his powerspike earlier (Runaan or Shiv) while the other ADC will lose XP, gold and the game.

Only 4 ADC of 17 are busted, the other 13 are in a bad spot right now.

Craft ZeppelinDec 31, 20163 votes

{quoted}

And? And it means that more than half the ADC can't be played anymore at their fullest, at the exclusion of Jhin (and MF to some extent).

Runaans is a problem but it's only built by Cait, Twitch, Jinx, which clearly shows that only 3 ADC are abusing it, with Vayne being the exception here.

4-man completely decides which team will win, given that is the lane where ADC lanes, one ADC will reach his powerspike earlier (Runaan or Shiv) while the other ADC will lose XP, gold and the game.

Only 4 ADC of 17 are busted, the other 13 are in a bad spot right now.

Are you saying that adcs as a whole arent viable because the top 5 ADCs are bullying them?

...where did the logic go?

TreyhovaDec 31, 20161 votes

A big problem was the gutting of ADC lane bullies with armor pen. If they get buffed back to being useful and some of the stronger ADC's receive some small nerfs, things should return to normal.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 31, 20163 votes

Or how about not immediately buffing broken ass shitchamps and just NERF the current broken af champs? Jhin, cait, vayne are in dire need of a nerf and voilá you will see more versatility in botlane.

TreyhovaDec 31, 20162 votes

Alright, while we are at it, lets nerf Hecarim Ivern Katarina LeeSin Poppy Riven Syndra Viktor Ziggs Ryze , because they are also stifling their lanes.

WoonStruckDec 31, 20161 votes

Definitely, although I disagree with Riven. And I hate fighting Riven as a Vlad main.

She's popular, but not 'good'. Most top laners beat her if played properly.

RavenMagusDec 31, 201616 votes

4-man bot ganks are so prevalent right now BECAUSE ADCs are so strong.

If your ADC gets fed, you win the game, period, nothing the enemy team can do anymore.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 31, 201613 votes

So much this. Unbelievable how several posters (me included) get downvoted for it. I just played a handful of adc games this season and sit on 80% winrate with them. Especially caitlyn is so easy and braindead. Sure my KDA is shit because i'm not used to playing adc but holy.

ShaolinToiletDec 31, 20162 votes

Shes braindead but I suck with her?

MelledoneusDec 31, 20164 votes

You can be bad at something simple. I'm horrible at Sejuani but amazing with Sion. One is more complicated than the other.

Brenticus12Dec 31, 20165 votes

People gank bot lane because it's two kills with one of them having low amounts of damage early unless he's playing something like Draven or Jhin.

That's two players who regardless of how effective they are at that time still gives the same amount of gold and xp for killing them. Not to mention that killing the tower bot lane is much faster than other lanes AND first tower gold. Also the fact that it's much easier to have your top laner roam bot through TP than to have your ADC (Who shouldn't even be roaming that early) roam top.

Mira Arya EntheDec 31, 201637 votes

It's almost as if being able to right click somebody from 500-730 units away for an undodgeable amount of damage ranging from 90 early game to 2000 late game lacks counterplay to begin with.

Rew711Dec 31, 20162 votes

First, they hurt th MS on a select few Fighters, like Udyr, to get them out of the meta; onlynitnback fired and Lee Sin doesn't even need MS but still has a high amount of it. And some long ranged ADCs have tons of AS. Namely Jinx.

Almost all Tanks lost their rightfully absurd high base stats and now rely on items that also got nerfs. Now only high damage Tanks are usuable.

Assassins are great against ADCs because they gap-code.

Supports can just sit this one out.

And mages... well not only nerfs to their items, and weird configurements to their abilities, but I honestly don't know where to find spell vamp anymore... Where are the spell vamp items?

Jerry SeinfeIdDec 31, 20162 votes

when jinx is long range she doesn't have high attack speed, if she does you're already losing the fight anyway.

FaustavianDec 31, 20165 votes

undodgeable Jax : I beg to differ.

Unlucky47Dec 31, 20161 votes

I don't have a problem with the game needing adcs. I do have a problem with the game being focused around adcs. "Oh assassins are too strong for adcs we should gut half of them" or "Oh mages one shotting the behind ashe shouldn't be able to do that we should take away ap and give them mr" because we all know when they talk about people getting one shotted they mean the people that build full on glass cannon without any form of resistance.

Z3braDec 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fK9BXVk2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-31T00:45:10.774+0000)

Seriously, they need to do something about this constant mandatory adc meta on botlane. Always, just always the god tier adcs seem to have the least counterplay in game.

Meanwhile, back in Season 1: ADC mid meta.

PennsDec 31, 20167 votes

If they buff Fizz Im in Kappa

doublelift fgDec 31, 20166 votes

Except it is? but 70 is still not enough, it should have been 90 or massively reduce twitch's base mana

Leo1024Dec 31, 20164 votes

Low mana early = more poke more poke = early game advantage win early game = get ahead and get fed mid win mid game = win late game win late game = profit

WoonStruckDec 31, 20169 votes

Twitch doesn't really have poke. His 'poke' is unrelated to the nerf; auto 3-6 times, expunge.

I guess Venom Cask is considered poke now. :^)

It didn't make Twitch any weaker, and anyone with half a brain would have realized that the moment it was suggested.

DolasaurDec 31, 20164 votes

It's not super strong, but he can do ~65-90 premitigation damage at level 2 with just WE from ~1000 range (some of it true damage). It's weak, but it's poke.

Your OP also seems to have missed the other half of his nerfs. In situations where you get 6 or fewer autos off (assuming you're not casting W), you're losing 6 true damage per auto. It doesn't affect too much late game, but that adds up very quickly in early game if you're ever trading with the enemy.

He has the highest ADC win rate right now, and he may still be too strong. But the nerfs in 6.24 did hurt him. It may not have hurt him in the way you wanted, but I'm sure you're aware that Riot prefers to keep the "highlights" (e.g. probably the parts you hate) strong and remove power elsewhere that you won't notice missing (e.g. passive tick damage).

GrReaper96Dec 31, 20163 votes

Honestly they buff and nerf his passive like every season or so, and the exact same amounts too. They should realize by now nerfing his passive doesnt really solve his problems

WoonStruckDec 31, 20162 votes

Its his Q/R multiplying each other while also granting him massive range and MS that can effectively be pushed even further due to him also having a significant AoE slow.

Idk why Riot hasn't realized it yet. Only thing they ever got right with him was nerfing expunge/contaminate's base damage when he was a massive lane bully AND a hypercarry.

Umbra IoniaDec 31, 20161 votes

Also he gains AD boost with R...hmhm like Vayne...and they´re 2 are meta...why not just remove it? I mean Twitch gains ton of range and Vayne invisibility

King of DemonsDec 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Also he gains AD boost with R...hmhm like Vayne...and they´re 2 are meta...why not just remove it? I mean Twitch gains ton of range and Vayne invisibility

The AD boost is not the issue. Not inherently at least.

Umbra IoniaDec 31, 20162 votes

Well, it´s everthing, in Twitch case AS from Q range and AD from R and with the new hurricane he deals tons of AoE dmg.

Darth SidioussDec 31, 20164 votes

Multi million dollar company and they cant balance the game ffs.

WoonStruckDec 31, 20164 votes

For the past 4 years.

Its an ongoing process. :^)

AckelopeDec 31, 20168 votes

It's pretty possible that we also have an incorrect grasp on the state of the game and what is/isn't balanced. People are good at catering to their own, personal needs, and sometimes they can deceive themselves into thinking they aren't. Not necessarily saying we're all wrong and selfish, always, but it's just good to realize that a lot of our "solutions" are very conceptual and we don't really know what their lasting effects would be.

Blackstone01Dec 31, 20162 votes

A bit of that, and a bit of Riot's balancing mentality with ESports and meta enforcement. I can't recall it, but there was a Rioter comment about Lee's balancing revolving around Pro play due to him being a flashy champion.

ShaolinToiletDec 31, 20162 votes

Billion not million