Any conterplay for new toplane meta?

dEAdbUs·Apr 20, 2015·3 votes·1,370 views

Sion, Heca and Irelia are sick ops, with sustain, cc, abilities to avoid trades (Irelia's insane stun, Heca's charge, Sion's shield + tons of cc) and abilities to avoid enemy all-ins (Irelia's insane stun is insanely long, Heca's ult, Sion's ult). Tried Trundle that was promised as counter to tanks. False! Most tanks have hard cc, while Trundle in-fight sustain based on AA, so in fights vs tanks there is no guarantees that Trundle will win this fights. Edit: main Trundle sustain tool - his passive, is useless in teamfights.

35 Comments

djjomonApr 20, 20154 votes

There's plenty of counterplay, but like you said no guaranteed victory. Which is good. Guaranteed victory = no counterplay

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20151 votes

http://www.lolking.net/news/league-trendsapr14 Hecarim banrate: 54.19%->59.79% (+5.6%).

djjomonApr 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

http://www.lolking.net/news/league-trendsapr14 Hecarim banrate: 54.19%->59.79% (+5.6%).

You can throw specific numbers all you want. I never said anything about any specific champions. But fine, I will. Hecarim's not unbeatable. He's just in a very dominant spot. Like Renekton back in the day. It's even worse in soloq than competitive, due to the lack of lane swaps. Hard to beat =/= guaranteed victory.

I agree Hecarim needs a nerf. I like him in the toplane, he's just too good there right now. If a champion like Trundle, with similar gold/items, can't expectedly out duel a tank Hecarim, that's a bit problematic. Unless he stacks his CC correction, at which point "outplayed." If it's a Hecarim with just item 3078 and item 3265 , and you're losing fights... Well yeah, there's not much in tank stats to steal yet.

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20151 votes

There is no guaranteed win in soloq. So It's all about numbers. If Heca is hard to beat its increasing chances for his win in soloq and descreasing yours. But this topic is about ways to play agains current meta, not about hope that I will face unskilled Heca and beat him.

djjomonApr 20, 20152 votes

Understood. My answer to that? Garen . Yeah his sustain is unreliable, but he can win many matchups against spell-reliant melees, and he can beat squishies at 6.

He's not quite OP, or even the go-to top laner. But he's definitely in a much better spot than he gets credit for. I think China even played him top recently.

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20151 votes

Hecarim is still better than Garen :)

Voluug13Apr 20, 20153 votes

First and foremost, a well played trundle does defeat them in lane, but you need to use Trundle well, and most importantly, ward like crazy. None of those can outduel a Trundle with Merc boots, specially Sion if you evade his Q and dont stand behind minions for an easy E. Heca and Sion are pretty dependant on ganks, specially Sion. And if Irelia is starting tank, she doesnt have the damage from Botrk/Trinity and cant kill you without ganks. BotRK (and the new Black Cleaver too!) Trundle can destroy Sion and Hecarim. Irelia is harder to deal but much rarer that those 2.

On other champions, Vladimir and Rumble can build our saviors, item 3151 + item 3116 . Those 2 can kite and poke all 3 mentioned while sustaining back (at least Vlad) most damage. The only thing to be cautious is overpushing the lane. Quinn if played right can too, she is at her core an adc after all. Urgot possibly will too after the changes to Black Cleaver.

But the best advice is item 2043 item 2044 , and item 3153 , item 3151 and soon item 3071 are your best friends when dealing top ''tanks''.

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20151 votes

I mostly meant Trundle's gameplay after laning phase. His laning is ok. Played vs Heca, and nope Trundle can't destroy Heca. You won't believe, but Heca has even more sustain than Trundle. And as already said Heca can easy run away from Trundle.

Meep ManApr 20, 20153 votes

I dont know. I would say just look for tanky poke to retaliate. Aatrox Chogath DrMundo Galio Malphite Maokai Swain Urgot Vladimir Yorick Zac They are all decently viable against them, except maybe Aatrox since while he is decently tanky and has poke, he follows the Lee Sin Rule of "Does Everything, Is Amazing at Nothing", except the one thing he stands out on (Sustain) is easily countered since he is Melee.

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20151 votes

Mundo sucks vs Irelia. Had this matchup many times.
Irelia is a natural counter to Vlad. My D1 brother who is maining Vlad always bans Irelia. Same with Swain I guess.
Galio is vs AP, how he can beat Irelia?
Doubt about Malph. It's hard matchup for him. Not good with rest.

insaiyanbaccaApr 20, 20152 votes

i can see people saying mundo and aatrox can lose lane to irelia but the rest of those champs have ez lanes against relia

LongHair FoxMay 2, 20151 votes

You want a champion that does well against heca, irelia and sion at the same time?

Well they are very different champions so doing well against all of them requires a lot of different things. My best bet would be maokai. I have played the irelia lane on both sides and would argue that mao has the advantage but both can win it depending on how you build as mao and the understanding of the matchup. Against heca then he does really well due to his passive being really good against the q spam from heca and cc in teamfights for your adc to take advantage of. Sion is mostly a farm lane but your ult and ability to perfectly peel and interupt any attempts sions has at using his q means you scale harder in teamfights with the exception of initiation.

Ketchup25May 1, 20153 votes

I have been playing trundle the last few days(a lot) and I have been going really well against the "tank meta", maybe he is just not your type of champ. His ult shreds tanks, and if you buy bork and the new black clever you are basically a melee kog maw. His Passive is really good as it gives you a good surviving tool if you manage to kill their tank. And if the enemy uses their cc on you you have succeded, plus it won't be much of a problem if you have merc treds and the tenacity mastery in defence.

dEAdbUsMay 2, 20152 votes

Yeah, your argument: "it's not your time of champion." Check PBE, Riots buffing Trundle. So I guees they re more agree with me than with you.

Ketchup25May 2, 20152 votes

Just because he is getting buffed does not make you right on whetever he is strong or not, riot has been wrong in many cases when they nerf/buff a champion. He is probably getting a buff because he is not seeing lots of play, the reason for why he is not getting played in pro scene is arguable. So he might not be your type of champion he is not a mechaniclly intense champion. He is more of a tactical champ, on who or when am I gonna use my ult, should I save my adc with pillar or lock down someone on their team, where is a good spot to use W etc. But can you send a link to the site for the buff? I really want to check out how big it is.

dEAdbUsMay 2, 20151 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/05/51-pbe-update.html#bal1

Anyway, I want to say - he can be nice toplaner, but he has no impact in late game. All he can do - peel for his carries, because he can't dive enemy carries because he has no gapclose (while even Dari can Flash + E). Imho, his kit similar to Mundo, but Mundo looks much stronger now. But if pillar will be buffed, he'll be able to initiate with Righteous Glory. I think this will help his late game. We'll see.

Ketchup25May 2, 20152 votes

This will absolutely help him late game, but I would disagree that he is bad late, as silly as it sounds you should focus the tank with trundle, if you do this the rest of your team and yourselves can easily go for the enemy back line as you demolish their tank in a few sec atleast making the tank useless. Plus he is extremely good at taking towers which makes an ace deadly, or he can splitpush if nothing else works.

dEAdbUsMay 2, 20151 votes

Many champions can take towers fast. Tanks cant be useless because they have cc, aoe, intiation power etc, while Trundle only cuts their armor. Your words "rest of team" just showing that Trundle sucks solo and he's very team dependant. I used close words for that: "If Trundle's carries suck, he won't do much". Trundle will be useful only if he'll have power to protect team that sucks.

Ketchup25May 2, 20151 votes

A tank will be useless if you bring them to 300 hp as they'll have to flee, they might have unloaded all their cc by then, but most likely that cc would focused on you as they can't just walk through you. And note that I said the team and yourself meaning that if you are fed enough you'll probably get to their carries, lock them down with a pillar and deal heavy amounts of damage, and your carries even though behind can probably deal damage to the backline as you as trundle will be soaking up the damage. He is way of protectin the team is by killing the tanks so no one can cc the rest of your team. And yes there are many champions that can take towers fast, but trundle is by the fastest, with a autoreset q that boost ad by 40, and a w witch granst him 80% attack speed at max rank. He is like the old rengar who could use his q, trundle also has pretty good escape despite lacking a gap closer.

Leti the YetiApr 20, 20152 votes

Tried Trundle that was promised as counter to tanks. False! Most tanks have hard cc, while Trundle in-fight sustain based on AA

what...

Trundle in-fight sustain based on AA

...

sustain based on AA

thats... thats how everyone kills tanks m8 how else are you gonna make good use of item 3153

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20151 votes

He's melee, no gapcloses, no hard cc. Irelia has gapclose and stun. ADC has range.

AkabaneKunApr 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

He's melee, no gapcloses, no hard cc. Irelia has gapclose and stun. ADC has range.

Fine, here Olaf , can poke better than most tanks, immunity to CC, can get absurd amounts of sustain, shred tanks with constant true dmg=profit.

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20151 votes

I'll try him, but I think he is better for killing carries than for killing tanks. That what his immune was made for - for ignoring tanks, not killing them.

Leti the YetiApr 20, 20153 votes

you dont need gapclosers cuz most tanks fight at melee range anyway ;l in a duel, it will most certainly be a melee slug fest in a team fight, they will most certainly be obstructing you

when the hell would you need cc or gapcloser to face a tank?

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20151 votes

Gap close to reach any target for AA it (avoiding enemy control). Stun for holding it. You better try to play Trundle. In fights you'll have not so many options (just one - peel for carries). So if your carries sucks you won't be able to do anything. Because you can't reach enemy carries, your damage to tanks is not so really great comparing to ADC or APC damage.

Countering tanks is not just killing one tank that standing against you on lane, its about dealing with teams full of fat guys. And Trundle is not good to deal with such kind of teams.

Leti the YetiApr 20, 20152 votes

avoiding tanks? wow thats uuh pretty easy I guess Jax

Arcade AndrewApr 20, 20152 votes

Better nerf irelia!

IcyPepperApr 20, 20151 votes

Here's a few items that help trading with Irelia: item 3075 item 3110 item 3068 item 3165

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20151 votes

How can you trade if you're stunned?

IcyPepperApr 20, 20151 votes

What does thornmail and sunfire's cape do?

What does frozen heart have to do with her W?

If you initiate as an AP caster with Morello, what does the passive potentially do to affect her W?

dEAdbUsApr 20, 20152 votes

Played as Mundo vs Irelia many times. Get Sunfire + my own fire and still lost trades.

Morello works only if target below 40%.

IcyPepperApr 20, 20152 votes

I said potentially for a reason, it keeps her from topping her health if she's near death.

Irelia is annoying as hell, but she's far from OP. And considering her stun is melee range and conditional on her health and the target's, it's more annoying than anything else. Crowd control isn't a "no counterplay" thing, otherwise every champion Annie Ashe Fiddlesticks with it is OP. Yes, it's point and click, but it's in autoattack range...

Just keep practicing.

KrigjerMay 2, 20151 votes

Someone is butthurt that you're asking questions and defending your reasoning by downvoting everything you post. durr.

dEAdbUsMay 2, 20151 votes

It's usual reaction. However Riot buffing Trundle, nefring Cinderhulk and Heca in next patch.

MartyrofsandMay 2, 20151 votes

A Vlad with proper ruins/masteries beats both Hec and Sion, although the match against Irelia SUCKS unless she does something stupid, like not starting flask+pots for some reason.